Originally posted by jimBOFH
If you allow use of the Dragonballs, I really don't see how anyone could beat Vegeta- I say Vegeta because he's smarter than Goku, tactically. Which means he'd probably use kryptonite on Superman.
Also, unlike Goku he'd have no moral qualms about getting Superman to do what he wanted by threatening to blow up half the planet.
vegeta won't use kryptonite on superman since he has a high pride as a saiyan-jin. even he refuse to fused with Goku again in buu saga.
Originally posted by ultimatethor
Gokus equals unfortunately dont dish out as much damage as those near surfers level.And im not sure about gokus ability to destroy a solar sytem i mean no offense but it seems most of the forum doesnt buy it and since he hasnt done it before im not sure i do either. Surfer on the other has shown that his energy output is enough to create a blackhole with a casual discharge of energy. Keep in mind our own sun isnt
near massive enough to accomplish the same.Considering the damage surfer has been able to take i doubt goku could hurt him very much and since i doubt goku has matter manip resistance he probly gets devolved or has his electrons scattered in the first few seconds of the fight.
I know that most of the forum dont believe it but what reason would there be for any character to destroy a solar system in dbz when there main reason was to fight goku. Again people fail to realize that dbz characters can read power level and the out put of power and gohun believed that cell had the power to destroy a solar system and we dont even know if that was his limit.
The problem with surfer or any other dc character that is ever put against goku is that goku has a unique way of fighting, I have yet to witness someone in marvel or dc do half of the things that goku has done with his speed, not even flash (combat speed). Goku as a child was deflecting multiples of machine gun fire; that is something that even superman has failed to do, on one occasion superman needed the flash help to stop bullets coming from 3 men with machine guns. Lets not forget goku was knocking machine gun bullets out of the air easily from multiple of opponents.
Goku as a child was also fighting at blinding speeds for a long period of time; he basically disappeared right in front of the audience face which is something that I have only seen flash do. His speed during his teenage years after his training with po po should have been off the charts since his power level tripled.
I love surfer and I would vote for him against almost anyone but when it comes to dbz characters black hair goku should be able to whip that ass and I honestly dont think that matter man would work on him, magic dont even work on dbz characters so I know that matter wont do crap and surfer would be hard pressed to even be able to hit goku with a blas since other blast has failed.
Got a question for ya, do you remember when king ki said that frieza was going to destroy the universe if goku didnt stop him, what did he mean by that.
1. Did he mean that frieza was going to shoot a blast that would level the universe or...........
2. Did he mean that frieza was going to fly planet by planet destroying each one of them because if thats the case the universe is huge and if frieza was to do that that would put him above light speed, dont you agree unless you think the speed of sound could travel around the universe at the same rate of light.
Originally posted by Alucard25
I took it to mean Surfer has never fought anyone as powerful as Goku,which knowing Carver and the retarded amount of wank he gives Goku I wouldn't be surprised if he did mean it that way.
I guess you didnt understand my post, goku is a mixture of EVERYTHING that makes the perfect weapon: speed, super strength, and not only just speed by itself but combat speed, planet destroying blasts (solar system destroying also), amping, martial arts, nigh invulnerable. He use every piece of his power in every battle in a unique way.
Surfer is good but not too good to not get stomped by black hair goku and again I can picture goku dodging everything that surfer throws at him.
Originally posted by carver9
I know that most of the forum dont believe it but what reason would there be for any character to destroy a solar system in dbz when there main reason was to fight goku. Again people fail to realize that dbz characters can read power level and the out put of power and gohun believed that cell had the power to destroy a solar system and we dont even know if that was his limit.The problem with surfer or any other dc character that is ever put against goku is that goku has a unique way of fighting, I have yet to witness someone in marvel or dc do half of the things that goku has done with his speed, not even flash (combat speed). Goku as a child was deflecting multiples of machine gun fire; that is something that even superman has failed to do, on one occasion superman needed the flash help to stop bullets coming from 3 men with machine guns. Lets not forget goku was knocking machine gun bullets out of the air easily from multiple of opponents.
Goku as a child was also fighting at blinding speeds for a long period of time; he basically disappeared right in front of the audience face which is something that I have only seen flash do. His speed during his teenage years after his training with po po should have been off the charts since his power level tripled.
I love surfer and I would vote for him against almost anyone but when it comes to dbz characters black hair goku should be able to whip that ass and I honestly dont think that matter man would work on him, magic dont even work on dbz characters so I know that matter wont do crap and surfer would be hard pressed to even be able to hit goku with a blas since other blast has failed.
Got a question for ya, do you remember when king ki said that frieza was going to destroy the universe if goku didnt stop him, what did he mean by that.
1. Did he mean that frieza was going to shoot a blast that would level the universe or...........
2. Did he mean that frieza was going to fly planet by planet destroying each one of them because if thats the case the universe is huge and if frieza was to do that that would put him above light speed, dont you agree unless you think the speed of sound could travel around the universe at the same rate of light.
Use Cell or Buu if you want to say that, both were universal threats, Freeza had a ship. and Surfer isn't going to outfight Goku, but he is still too versatile.
Originally posted by carver9
I know that most of the forum dont believe it but what reason would there be for any character to destroy a solar system in dbz when there main reason was to fight goku. Again people fail to realize that dbz characters can read power level and the out put of power and gohun believed that cell had the power to destroy a solar system and we dont even know if that was his limit.The problem with surfer or any other dc character that is ever put against goku is that goku has a unique way of fighting, I have yet to witness someone in marvel or dc do half of the things that goku has done with his speed, not even flash (combat speed). Goku as a child was deflecting multiples of machine gun fire; that is something that even superman has failed to do, on one occasion superman needed the flash help to stop bullets coming from 3 men with machine guns. Lets not forget goku was knocking machine gun bullets out of the air easily from multiple of opponents.
Goku as a child was also fighting at blinding speeds for a long period of time; he basically disappeared right in front of the audience face which is something that I have only seen flash do. His speed during his teenage years after his training with po po should have been off the charts since his power level tripled.
I love surfer and I would vote for him against almost anyone but when it comes to dbz characters black hair goku should be able to whip that ass and I honestly dont think that matter man would work on him, magic dont even work on dbz characters so I know that matter wont do crap and surfer would be hard pressed to even be able to hit goku with a blas since other blast has failed.
Got a question for ya, do you remember when king ki said that frieza was going to destroy the universe if goku didnt stop him, what did he mean by that.
1. Did he mean that frieza was going to shoot a blast that would level the universe or...........
2. Did he mean that frieza was going to fly planet by planet destroying each one of them because if thats the case the universe is huge and if frieza was to do that that would put him above light speed, dont you agree unless you think the speed of sound could travel around the universe at the same rate of light.
Goku's "h2h" speed wont be very useful against surfer. First of all surfer will have to be a moron to get involved in h2h. Further surfer has the "combat speed"( note this does not refer to h2h speed as believed by some retards on this forum but rather is a combination of surfers ability to move and manoever at superspeeds while in combat and also to attack i.e blast at those speeds not punch) to avoid goku and tag goku with blasts.
Then as for all this talk of goku destroying a solar system, until it actually happens it will have to pass for hyperbole at best. Surfer on the other hand has shown the power to actually cause the creation of blackholes as an after effect from his casual energy discharges. Keep in mind, that our sun isnt even near massive enough to collapse into a blackhole so u get the idea of the kind of power output surfer has.
Also if surfer just decides to bullrush goku its pretty much over for him cuz he could take gokus head clean off before goku even has the chance to blink.
Also matter manip and magic are not the same thing. Just because a person can resist magic does not mean he can resist matter manip from aa sufficnetly poerful character. Seeing as goku has not resisted matter manip from anyone close to surfers level ( I seem to vaguely remeber someone in DBZ being turned into a ginger bread man or something like that thpugh im not sure it was) then surfer could literally blink and end gokus life.
Originally posted by ultimatethorThen as for all this talk of goku destroying a solar system, until it actually happens it will have to pass for hyperbole at best. Surfer on the other hand has shown the power to actually cause the creation of blackholes as an after effect from his casual energy discharges. Keep in mind, that our sun isnt even near massive enough to collapse into a blackhole so u get the idea of the kind of power output surfer has.
Also if surfer just decides to bullrush goku its pretty much over for him cuz he could take gokus head clean off before goku even has the chance to blink.
Also matter manip and magic are not the same thing. Just because a person can resist magic does not mean he can resist matter manip from aa sufficnetly poerful character. Seeing as goku has not resisted matter manip from anyone close to surfers level ( I seem to vaguely remeber someone in DBZ being turned into a ginger bread man or something like that thpugh im not sure it was) then surfer could literally blink and end gokus life.
There is no way Goku wouldn't sense Surfer bullrushing and use IT, he doesn't have to even be able to see his opponent to fight. Also Goku would never destroy a planet let alone a solar system. It was acknowledged multiple times that Cell was a universal threat, and stated on panel he could blow a solar system, Broly destroyed multiple galaxies, Buu destroyed at least hundreds of planets,blah blah blah. The gods' could matter manip but they were almost useless around Goku, Buu and company. But I already agree with you Surfer would beat him.
Originally posted by TheBadguy
There is no way Goku wouldn't sense Surfer bullrushing and use IT, he doesn't have to even be able to see his opponent to fight. Also Goku would never destroy a planet let alone a solar system. It was acknowledged multiple times that Cell was a universal threat, and stated on panel he could blow a solar system, Broly destroyed multiple galaxies, Buu destroyed at least hundreds of planets,blah blah blah. The gods' could matter manip but they were almost useless around Goku, Buu and company. But I already agree with you Surfer would beat him.
How fast does gokus mind work? Cuz surfer can bullrush at thousands of time the speed of light( probably much more) and goku might be dead before his brain will have time to sense anything.
Originally posted by ultimatethor
How fast does gokus mind work? Cuz surfer can bullrush at thousands of time the speed of light( probably much more) and goku might be dead before his brain will have time to sense anything.
Enough for FTL at least but who knows for sure
sidenote- when Surfer did it to Thanos and he dodged it, was Thanos cut off from ALL of the gauntlet or just parts of it? I can't remember.
Originally posted by carver9
I guess you didnt understand my post, goku is a mixture of EVERYTHING that makes the perfect weapon: speed, super strength, and not only just speed by itself but combat speed, planet destroying blasts (solar system destroying also), amping, martial arts, nigh invulnerable. He use every piece of his power in every battle in a unique way.Surfer is good but not too good to not get stomped by black hair goku and again I can picture goku dodging everything that surfer throws at him.
WTF? Goku nigh invulnerable? Every enemy he fought has showed to hurt him greatly. He is only invulnerable to humans.
Lets look at Norrin. speed, super strength, and not only just speed by itself but combat speed, planet destroying blasts he can amp himself, no martial arts, nigh invulnerable, matter and energy manip, super intelligence, cosmic awareness.
Well, if you believe some of the arguments posted on this forum, Broly is capable of "one-shotting a galaxy". Goku beat Broly as a standard SSJ with energy of 3 other SSJ's and a fused Namek.
By the EoZ, Goku is SSJ3, Vgeta is SSJ2 and Gohan is almost as powerful as Goku SSJ3 is in his natural form. I'd say that they're all more powerful than Broly was by this stage.
So anyone that argued that Broly could one-shot a galaxy should be ok with the idea that Goku, Vegeta, Gohan and Gotenks should each be able to one-shot a galaxy at the very least.
And about Superman's increase in strength over time- is it as dramatic as the increase in strength Vegeta and Goku get via severe training (e.g. in the HTC their strength more than triples in a year)? That's not including the possibility that, faced with a superior foe, they could use the same tactic Vegeta used to get stronger against Frieza
1. Goku and Vegeta inflict fatal wounds upon each other.
2. Dende heals both of them.
3. Their strength increases enormously as a result of this.
4. Repeat.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
Well, if you believe some of the arguments posted on this forum, Broly is capable of "one-shotting a galaxy". Goku beat Broly as a standard SSJ with energy of 3 other SSJ's and a fused Namek.
By the EoZ, Goku is SSJ3, Vgeta is SSJ2 and Gohan is almost as powerful as Goku SSJ3 is in his natural form. I'd say that they're all more powerful than Broly was by this stage.
So anyone that argued that Broly could one-shot a galaxy should be ok with the idea that Goku, Vegeta, Gohan and Gotenks should each be able to one-shot a galaxy at the very least.And about Superman's increase in strength over time- is it as dramatic as the increase in strength Vegeta and Goku get via severe training (e.g. in the HTC their strength more than triples in a year)? That's not including the possibility that, faced with a superior foe, they could use the same tactic Vegeta used to get stronger against Frieza
1. Goku and Vegeta inflict fatal wounds upon each other.
2. Dende heals both of them.
3. Their strength increases enormously as a result of this.
4. Repeat.
well the closer to the sun he gets the more dramtic it is. If they do that tatic whats stopping him from flying to the sun.
Well, if the sun is the source of his power, simple solution- Vegeta destroys it. If he destroys all the yellow-spectrum stars, what can Superman do then?
Furthermore, would that deliver a bigger increase in power than Vegeta and Goku can get from their Saiyan blood, anyway? How large an increase in power does this give to Superman? Vegeta's power level increases exponentially when he's actually mortally wounded, for example when Dende heals him after Krillen blasts a hole in his chest, his power increases enormously- from a fighting power of much less than 1 million (When Frieza says his first transformation has a fighting power of 1 million, Vegeta says "That's impossible, even for him" - meaning it must be several times Vegeta's power level at that stage- Vegeta's power level is <250k therefore or he wouldn't be so suprised).
Frieza then transforms a 2nd time, presumably with a significant increase in power as he is now able to beat Piccolo. Safe to say it's over 2.5 million in his 3rd form- Frieza says "each time I transform I become much stronger". So even, at a conservative estimate, Vegeta's power level increases to 10x its previous level by being healed from a fatal wound. It couldn't take more than 10 minutes for the whole process to occur, at the most- so can Superman increase his power by 10x in 10 minutes?
Originally posted by jimBOFH
Well, if the sun is the source of his power, simple solution- Vegeta destroys it. If he destroys all the yellow-spectrum stars, what can Superman do then?
Furthermore, would that deliver a bigger increase in power than Vegeta and Goku can get from their Saiyan blood, anyway? How large an increase in power does this give to Superman? Vegeta's power level increases exponentially when he's actually mortally wounded, for example when Dende heals him after Krillen blasts a hole in his chest, his power increases enormously- from a fighting power of much less than 1 million (When Frieza says his first transformation has a fighting power of 1 million, Vegeta says "That's impossible, even for him" - meaning it must be several times Vegeta's power level at that stage- Vegeta's power level is <250k therefore or he wouldn't be so suprised).
Frieza then transforms a 2nd time, presumably with a significant increase in power as he is now able to beat Piccolo. Safe to say it's over 2.5 million in his 3rd form- Frieza says "each time I transform I become much stronger". So even, at a conservative estimate, Vegeta's power level increases to 10x its previous level by being healed from a fatal wound. It couldn't take more than 10 minutes for the whole process to occur, at the most- so can Superman increase his power by 10x in 10 minutes?
When allstar superman flew through the sun. All of his attributes were much higher then 10 times normal. It increases exponetially the longers hes next to it. Every time he has gotten close to the sun he has beate foes bettern then his whole tem together
Is the increase permanent, or only temporary? And you still haven't explained what he can do if Vegeta destroys the sun, and any other yellow star that Superman attempts to use.
Also, how long does this process take for Superman- Vegeta's power should be increasing, permanently, by a factor of 10 in one healing.
Vegeta destroying the sun...while first is not within Vegeta's power second would also doom Vegeta himself.
And the sun-amping is always on as long as he's next to the sun but will wear off eventually if he doesn't stay next to the sun. And Superman stores solar energy so while he will get gradually weaker assuming Vegeta did destroy the sun, and survive but it's not an instant depowerment because of it being stored energy.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
Is the increase permanent, or only temporary? And you still haven't explained what he can do if Vegeta destroys the sun, and any other yellow star that Superman attempts to use.
Also, how long does this process take for Superman- Vegeta's power should be increasing, permanently, by a factor of 10 in one healing.
He doesn't have the strength to destroy a sun. Superman could be in another Galaxy with a yellow sun before Vegeta even blinked.
Originally posted by ultimatethor
How fast does gokus mind work? Cuz surfer can bullrush at thousands of time the speed of light( probably much more) and goku might be dead before his brain will have time to sense anything.
Nobody is denying that S.Surfer is faster than light but you should also consider that Surfer is not unhittable creature in a fight. Same goes for Superman and Flash.
Originally posted by nij-ayias
Nobody is denying that S.Surfer is faster than light but you should also consider that Surfer is not unhittable creature in a fight. Same goes for Superman and Flash.
I dont consider surfer as unhittable in fights, most of the time im not for that line of reasoning. However i only brought up surfers bullrushing as a method of him winning because someone suggested that surfer might be unable to hit goku. Surfer has many other means of winning other than bullrushing goku.
I'm talking Vegeta at EoZ. By this stage he is FAR more powerful than Frieza ever was, and more powerful than Broly too- he's definitely powerful enough to destroy a sun. If you believe the Broly arguments posted in a different thread a while back, then Broly- and therefore SSJ2 EoZ Vegeta- is powerful enough to one-shot a galaxy. I don't, but I do think that a star would be no problem for him. As for making his escape- the modified Saiyan space pods travel considerably faster than light (about 6 times that speed, based on Bulma's calculations where she talks about the time it would take a conventional earth rocket to travel to Namek) . So even without Goku's help (Instant Transmission), Vegeta can fire off a ki blast then escape in plenty of time.