Originally posted by ushomefree
Scripture deals with future revelation of history; and it has come to pass. Hence the reason why man is able to determine that it is--indeed--prophecy, or at least--to be minimalistic about it--able to conclude that Scripture does indeed contain much circumstantial evidence (whether right or wrong). Would you at least agree to my last point?
NOT AT ALL.
Not a single so call prophecy in the bible is really a prophecy. This is what is call Postdiction.
Shakyamunison-
The article you provided--in how it defines "postdiction"--does not apply to the Bible; the Bible contains specific prophecies, and they are not open-ended, for example. And Scripture--in dealing with prophecy--is certainly not allegory. Besides, the article namely speaks of Nostradamos, having nothing to do with prophetic Scripture. If you wish to apply "postdiction" to Nostradamos, I would agree; his prophecies were extremely vague--self-fulfilling; but the Bible is a much more detailed. Can you at least agree with me on that point?
Originally posted by ushomefree
Shakyamunison-The article you provided--in how it defines "postdiction"--does not apply to the Bible; the Bible contains specific prophecies, and they are not open-ended, for example. And Scripture--in dealing with prophecy--is certainly not allegory. Besides, the article namely speaks of Nostradamos, having nothing to do with prophetic Scripture. If you wish to apply "postdiction" to Nostradamos, I would agree; his prophecies were extremely vague--self-fulfilling; but the Bible is a much more detailed. Can you at least agree with me on that point?
I gave that article only to help you understand what I meant by postdiction. I do not see any reason why postdiction would not apply to the bible.
Why do you believe that postdiction does not apply to the bible?
Shakyamunison-
You are completely step-toeing the issue(s); you know damn well that the examples I provided at the mark of this thread do not apply to "postdiction."
Why are you being difficult? I'm simply asking you straight forward questions; you can be critical and not absurd at the same time.
Why can't read the prophetic Scripture I provided--in conjunction with your article--and understand that "postdiction" does not apply to the Bible yourself? Why must I write a book or spell it out for you? This indicates that you are intellectually lazy my friend. All you need to verify my claim is presently posted on this thread! The irony.
All people like you do is make hasty claims and poke at other people's posts, never entertaining the notion to study or take a topic seriously, nevermind remaining neutral. You have so much conviction for nothing! Your amazing! Instead, you turn the table around and hide. And for what?!
Originally posted by ushomefree
Shakyamunison-You are completely step-toeing the issue(s); you know damn well that the examples I provided at the mark of this thread do not apply to "postdiction."
I “know” no such thing. Why would a Buddhist think that the bible is any more valid then, the Koran or any other book written my humans?
Why do you believe that the things you have posted are above the application of postdiction?
Originally posted by ushomefree
Why are you being difficult? I'm simply asking you straight forward questions; you can be critical and not absurd at the same time.
There is a saying: a thief always things everyone is out to steal from them.
Originally posted by ushomefree
Why can't read the prophetic Scripture I provided--in conjunction with your article--and understand that "postdiction" does not apply to the Bible yourself? Why must I write a book or spell it out for you? This indicates that you are intellectually lazy my friend. All you need to verify my claim is presently posted on this thread! The irony.
Please humor me, because I cannot come to the same conclusion that you have.
Originally posted by ushomefree
All people like you do is make hasty claims and poke at other people's posts, never entertaining the notion to study or take a topic seriously, nevermind remaining neutral. You have so much conviction for nothing! Your amazing! Instead, you turn the table around and hide. And for what?!
I have done no such thing. I have asked you a question, and I still have not gotten an answer.
What do you mean by “You have so much conviction for nothing”? I don’t understand how you could come to such a conclusion based on what I have written. Are you using bios to categorize me, because you do not understand me, or because you can’t face what I represent?
I think, this is worth a second read:
No other religious writings in the world do we find specific prophecies like we find in the Scripture. You will find no predictive prophecies whatsoever in the writings of Buddha, Confucious, Mohammed, Lao-Tse, or Hinduism. Yet in the Scripture there are well over two thousand prophecies, most of which have already been fulfilled.
They are so specific in nature taht they burn all bridges behind them. If they are not fulfilled, it leaves no room for excuse. How can this be explained? Of all the attacks that have ever been upon the Scripture, there has never been one book written by a skeptic to disprove the prophecies of the Scripture. Though the Bible has been attacked at every other place, the one place where God rests His inspiration in that the things He fortells come infallibly to pass.
"Those who hate me without cause are more numerous than the hairs of my head" (Ps. 69:4).
"The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers conspire together against the LORD and His Anointed One" (Ps. 2:2).
"Even my friend in whom I trusted, one who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me" (Ps. 41:9).
"Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered" (Zch. 13:7).
"The I said to them, 'If it seems right to you, give me your wages; but if not, keep them.' So they weighed my wages, 30 pieces of silver. 'Throw it to the potter,' the LORD said to me--this magnificent price I was valued by them. So I took the 30 pieces of silver and threw it into the house of the LORD, to the potter" (Zch. 11:12-13).
"They are striking the judge of Israel on the cheek with a rod" (Mc. 5:1)
"I gave My back to those who beat Me, and My cheeks to those who tore out My beard. I did not hide My face from scorn and spitting" (Is. 50:60).
"They pierced my hands and my feet" (Ps. 22:16).
"My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?" (Ps. 22:1).
"Everyone who sees me mocks me; they sneer and shake their heads: 'He replies on the LORD; let Him rescue him; let the LORD deliver him, since He takes pleasure in him'" (Ps. 22:7-8).
"They gave me gall for my food, and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink" (Ps. 69:21).
"I am poured out like water, and all my bones are disjointed; my heart is like wax, melting within me" (Ps. 22:14).
"Yet He Himself bore our sickness, and He carried our pains; but we in turn regarded Him stricken down by God, and afflicted" (Is. 53:4).
"He was oppressed and afflicted, yet He did not open His mouth. Like a lamb led to the slaughter and like a sheep silent before her shearers, He did not open His mouth" (Is. 53:7).
"They divided my garments among themselves, and they case lots for my clothing" (Ps. 22:18).
"He submitted Himself to death" (Is. 53:12).
"He bore the sin of many and interceded for the rebels" (Is. 53:12).
"You may not break any of its bones" (Ex. 12:46).
"He protects all his bones; not one of them is broken" (Ps. 34:20).
"The look at Me whom they pierced" (Zch. 12:10).
"They made His grave with the wicked, and with a rich man at His death, although He had done no violence and had not spoken deceitfully" (Is. 53:9).
"For You will not abandon me to Sheol; You will not allow Your Faithful One to see the Pit" (Ps. 16:10).
"You ascended to the heights, taking away captives; You received gifts from people, even from the rebellious, so that the LORD God might live there" (Ps. 68:18).
"The LORD declared to my Lord: 'Sit at My right hand until I make your enemies Your footstool" (Ps. 110:1).
The Bible prophecies are altogether unexpected! I know of no one ever prophesying that any other human being would rise from the dead and ascend into heaven. That is exceedingly improbable. The chance of it happening by coincidence is incalculable. No, the Bible is not merely a book written by men; it is a book written by God through men, and the heart of its prophetic message is Jesus the Christ.
Ushomefree just admit you don't have an answer to my question.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No one can ever know the future. What you call a Prophecy is really a product of careful manipulation, translation and hind sight.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
NOT AT ALL.Not a single so call prophecy in the bible is really a prophecy. This is what is call Postdiction.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I gave that article only to help you understand what I meant by postdiction. I do not see any reason why postdiction would not apply to the bible.Why do you believe that postdiction does not apply to the bible?
The Proof of Prophecy
This video is slow at certain phases; but it is informative.
If only being merely curious about Bible prophecy, watching this video will not be in vain.
For better (or worse) those viewing will learn.
Shakyamunison-
I have already addressed your question; prophetic Scripture is not the product of "postdiction." I even provided a few reasons as to why I stand by that claim on the very next post! Prophetic Scripture is not vague; for example:
(1) "I am poured out like water, and all my bones are disjointed; my heart is like wax, melting within me" (Ps. 22:14).
(2) "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Ps. 22:16).
(3) "He protects all his bones; not one of them is broken" (Ps. 34:20).
The book of Psalm was written in the 3rd century BC, and the passsages I provided refer to crucifixion--a method of execution that was NOT in practice by the Romans (at the time of authorship).
As you may know, when persons are crucified, their "hands" and "feet" are "peirced." Moreover, when persons are crucified, their bones are pulled out of joint (due to positioning on the cross). To aid in the process of death, persons being crucified often had their knees bashed in with a club; such bashing of the knees insured that persons lacked the ability to push upward with their legs to breath. This did not happen to Jesus, just like scripture indicated about the Messiah 300 years in advance!
And what I provided--in retrospect--is a shortsighted. I'm not a historian or Bible theologian; I'm just having fun on the forum; but purchase books written by members of the field and you will learn a great deal. Well written books contain bibliographies for checks and balances and recommendations. Studying something as indepth as prophecy requires years! And people who have gone the distance, have higher levels of understanding than you and I my friend. Remember that.
As I mentioned, the entire article you provided from WikiPedia--dealing with "postdiction"--does not apply to prophetic Scripture. For one, Scripture is detailed, not vague. I hope the examples (and commentary) I provided begins to stimulate understanding. The article you posted provides many other issues that I am unwilling to address.
You have the power and intelligence to answer your own questions with objective study. I post threads of this caliber to render such courses of action, and for some, objective study is commenced. I don't have issues with answering questions (or even debating over disagreements if communication is present). I could be wrong, but it just seems that you are merely attempting to argue--just for the sake of arguing! And I am not here for that. You can't live your life expecting other people to teach you; at some point, you have to divorce yourself from the secular world/pop culture and take an active roll in educating yourself.
I'm sure you know people who claim to be knowledgeable about certain topics; but you know better! You have the knowledge to know better! If I took my motor vehicle to Jiffy Lube--or any other garage--to get an oil replacement, it would not prove difficult to realize mechanics do not know their jobs if they attempted to replace the oil of my motor vehicle by changing the washer fluid. In this context, when you stated that prophecy can be boiled down to "wishful thinking," it's obvious that you lack knowledge; you simply haven't conducted objective study. There is an old saying: it doesn't take all day to recognize sunshine.
Originally posted by ushomefree
Shakyamunison-I have already addressed your question; prophetic Scripture is not the product of "postdiction." I even provided a few reasons as to why I stand by that claim on the very next post! Prophetic Scripture is not vague; for example:
(1) "I am poured out like water, and all my bones are disjointed; my heart is like wax, melting within me" (Ps. 22:14).
(2) "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Ps. 22:16).
(3) "He protects all his bones; not one of them is broken" (Ps. 34:20).
Those passages and how you interpret them are great examples of postdiction. You don’t know whom the writer is talking about. It could be about anyone at any time. A prophecy must state whom and when in clear terms, in order to be true. For example: A real prophecy would be “on June 28th, 2008, life will be found on Mars by the Opportunity space probe”. If it came true on that day, in that way, it would be a true prophecy. However, to say, “an arm will reach where all is red, and he will be found”, is nothing but postdiction. It could be anything, and tomorrow something totally different then a Mars’s rover finding life could happen and my prophecy could be manipulated to be true, surprise, surprise.
Originally posted by ushomefree
The book of Psalm was written in the 3rd century BC, and the passsages I provided refer to crucifixion--a method of execution that was NOT in practice by the Romans (at the time of authorship).
Irrelevant. Postdiction has nothing to do with when of how something was written, but how it is interpreted.
Originally posted by ushomefree
As you may know, when persons are crucified, their "hands" and "feet" are "peirced." Moreover, when persons are crucified, their bones are pulled out of joint (due to positioning on the cross). To aid in the process of death, persons being crucified often had their knees bashed in with a club; such bashing of the knees insured that persons lacked the ability to push upward with their legs to breath. This did not happen to Jesus, just like scripture indicated about the Messiah 300 years in advance! You can actually purchase entire books about these sort of things (ha ha ha)! And what I provided--in retrospect--is a joke. I'm not a historian or Bible theologian; but purchase a few books written by some and you will learn.
Thank you for illustration how postdiction works.
Originally posted by ushomefree
As I mentioned, the entire article you provided from WikiPedia--dealing with "postdiction"--does not apply to prophetic Scripture. For one, Scripture is detailed, not vague. I hope the examples (and commentary) I provided begins to stimulate understanding. The article you posted provides many other issues that I am unwilling to address.
The examples you gave were extremely vague. It never said Jesus or crucifixion.
Originally posted by ushomefree
You have the power and intelligence to answer your own questions with objective study. I post threads of this caliber to render such courses of action, and for some, objective study is commenced. I don't have issues with answering questions (or even debating over disagreements if communication is present). I could be wrong, but it just seems that you are merely attempting to argue--just for the sake of arguing! And I am not here for that. You can't live your life expecting other people to teach you; at some point, you have to divorce yourself from the secular world/pop culture and take an active roll in educating yourself.I'm sure you know people who claim to be knowledgeable about certain topics; but you know better! You have the knowledge to know better! If I took my motor vehicle to Jiffy Lube--or any other garage--to get an oil replacement, it would not prove difficult to realize mechanics do not know their jobs if they attempted to replace the oil of my motor vehicle by changing the washer fluid. In this context, when you stated that prophecy can be boiled down to "wishful thinking," it's obvious that you lack knowledge; you simply haven't conducted objective study. There is an old saying: it doesn't take all day to recognize sunshine.
But that does not answer my question. Your opinion of me does not matter to me.
Originally posted by ushomefree
It did make sense; your position was clear. But I wanted you to elaborate on why you adhere to the position of the article (which has nothing to do with the Bible).
I don't believe in the bible, so why would my position have anything to do with the bible?
The reason I adhere to the position of the article? I really don't understand that question. Can you rephrase it for me? But take your time, I have to go to dinner now, and may not be back on until later. 😄