Originally posted by id369There is no reasons as to why she would be above the IG.
I was going to post my reasons for PotWC>>Thanos w/ IG
But GS virtually covered every reason (plus more).Good job GS!
Anyway... who cares about multi-versal, omni-versal, ass-versal? Did it not beat all the abstracts, minus LT? Is that not good enough?
When has Phoenix done a feat that compares?
Is there a combat feat that even comes close?
She manages to hold a universe that she was able to do because of her place that she was in. Was it fighting back? No, so why should that even be an issue in this debate? (just trying to nip it in the bud...)
The IG has beaten a fighting back universe... twice!
Just hold on... I seen this...
Originally posted by GalacticStormOK then, what feats trump the IG's?
Acknowledge that officially the UN is universal.The IG has no feats beyond the universal.
Phoenixes top feats trump the IG's. 😉
Was it when... it held a universe that was as big as her hand to begin with, and it wasn't fighting back?
IG fought the Eternity... and beat it... twice... badly!
What feats does she even have that come close to punking almost all of the abstracts?
Isnt the Phoenix a part of a universe, wouldent that make it a part of Eternity's power ... Since he is the embodiment of the universe ...
Besides Phoenix cannot kill Eternity and get out alive.
Phoenix is only universal, if the universe ends so does the Phoenix.
However the Phoenix force is multiversal ... But we're talking one Phoenix here.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The MBody is a visualization, a representation of the concept utilising it. Nothing more. If the MBody was the totality then time wouldve been destroyed when this happened:
NEXT PANEL:
"LIAR, you're ALL afraid of me and what I can do, as my power escalates, it Frightens the next level of the Hierarchy"
Eternity was trying to fool Protege,
no wonder he says after they destroy that illusion,
"Everything REVERTED back as if NOTHING HAPPENED"
Eternity then says, "For indeed NOTHING has"
Seems like someone REVERTED Time, instead of an M-Body being destroyed.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
but as Eternity explains both there and here,
there is a difference between his totality (the ACTUAL universe) and the MBody. (its REPRESENTATION)
That's untrue,
Eternity must've been speaking of Multi-Eternity, as in his "Totality," because if it were true that the IG's Affect would be "non-existent" had that been his Totality in the sense of ONE Universe,
how did this happen then: hum
Thanos w/IG becoming Eternity/the actual Universe/Totality
Originally posted by leonidas
were that the case when an m-body is destroyed, the universe would also be destroyed. i dedicated an entire thread to that point. there is a scan in that thread that shows the m-body LEAVING THE UNIVERSE. know what it left behind?the universe. and though the universe ultimately imploded it was NOT destroyed -- it remained behind in a condensed form.
Actually the Universe imploded/was destroyed immediately after Eternity left that Universe, the only thing that remained was a single Planet ... Earth, sustained by the Humans of Earth that had evolved due the High Evolutionary's experiment:
Eternity leaves his native Universe and enters a parallel Universe that is a Void/Emptiness
Next Panel that shows the Earth/Universe:
Eternity's native Universe immediately implodes:
"The Earth still exists, self-contained and self sustained (by the Humans) in the Universe the Entity left behind"
"The Entity's departure however, has deprived that Universe of meaning"
Next Panel that shows the Earth/Universe
"and it implodes upon itself, till what seemed Infinite Space could be bounded by a Nutshell" (the Earth, "self-contained and self sustained" by the Humans)
Immediately,
and make no mistake folks, NOTHING was left of that Universe except for the Earth, "self-contained and self sustained" by the Humans
"Thus ENDS One continuum of Time and Space"
And guess what Eternity did after he left that Universe behind that IMPLODED due to his departure?
Eternity Explodes/Creates/Becomes a Universe.
Yet some will argue Eternity is not a Universe. 😉
Originally posted by leonidas
when thanos assumed the role of eternity with the IG, it the eternity m-body was the 'entirety of the univserse' how was it that the m-body was IMPRISONED by thanos even as HE became the universe?
Same way Thanos's body was still on that platform in Space when he became Eternity.
Eternity is the Spirit/Consciousness of the Universe, thus being the Universe simultaneously.
Thanos's spirit/consciousness became the Universe, and he left his body behind like a shell.
Originally posted by leonidas
on top of that, you are directly contradicting what it says in gs's scans -- eternity himself says he has been manifested in countless ways and he has used many many m-bodies in the past.
Eternity has NEVER said that his M-body is weaker or a fraction of himself.
And on top of this, Eternity was trying to fool Protege.
Originally posted by leonidas
an eternity m-body is most definitely NOT the universe in its totality.
I disagree.
Eternity's M-Body has been the Universe since back in the day, no arguing that.
Originally posted by bigbran
There is no reasons as to why she would be above the IG.
GS never covered anything about it being above the IG. Nobody has.Anyway... who cares about multi-versal, omni-versal, ass-versal? Did it not beat all the abstracts, minus LT? Is that not good enough?
When has Phoenix done a feat that compares?Is there a combat feat that even comes close?
She manages to hold a universe that she was able to do because of her place that she was in. Was it fighting back? No, so why should that even be an issue in this debate? (just trying to nip it in the bud...)The IG has beaten a fighting back universe... twice!
Just hold on... I seen this...OK then, what feats trump the IG's?
Was it, when... it needed Cain, and Bobby's help fighting Stranger?
I know IG could never do the same...Was it when... it held a universe that was as big as her hand to begin with, and it wasn't fighting back?
IG fought the Eternity... and beat it... twice... badly!What feats does she even have that come close to punking almost all of the abstracts?
I will address this issue once again and once only BigBran. Read this post and comprehend.
Jean never just went to another dimension where she was massive in relation to the universe and just cupped it in her hand. Is that seriously how you interpreted that scene? You really are kidding me arent you? 🤨
Jean after having amputated the HCT future materialised the 616 universe atom by atom from reality into the hospital/core of creation/white hot room (whatever the hell you want to call it). That is the feat, the demonstration of power which places Phoenix above the likes of the IG and any universal threat. Why? Because she conclusively demonstrated not only that she has access to more power than is contained within the universe, but more importantly that she can wield it effectively.
Think of all of the matter and energy contained within the universe. For Jean to be able to break that down to its component parts (atoms) and materialise it INTACT within the White Hot Room to inspect within the palm of her hand then she conclusively must have wielded more power than was contained within otherwise it would not have been possible.
The abstracts are just beings OF the universe. Representations of the concepts within the universe. Phoenix casually put all of that on its deathbed and manipulated all of that in the palm of her hand. Thanos gained dominion of a little purple globule in Jeans hand, something she manipulated like putty. Something she fatally wounded before deciding to save. 😬
Your argument is weak.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Isnt the Phoenix a part of a universe, wouldent that make it a part of Eternity's power ... Since he is the embodiment of the universe ...Besides Phoenix cannot kill Eternity and get out alive.
Phoenix is only universal, if the universe ends so does the Phoenix.However the Phoenix force is multiversal ... But we're talking one Phoenix here.
At a universal level, think of the force as the blood to Eternity’s body. The Phoenix is reborn every cycle as the Big Bang which spawns a universe. Eternity is the sentience of this universe that is formed after the Big Bang event.
Destroy the universe and Phoenix will just recreate it as that is its role, to perpetuate the endless creation cycle.
That is why Eternity and the Stranger deemed it the Resurrection Force, because every cycle when all that came before is destroyed, the Phoenix lives on creating life again via the Big Bang.
So while the universe is continually destroyed and recreated along with the abstracts who are facets of the universe, the Phoenix is a constant, who perpetuates this cycle. It manifests as the Big Bang to initiate the cycle it is the power that fuels life’s processes and it is the fire that consumes it all. The Force cannot die, a universe however can.
The Phoenix Force is the very life force of the universe, the Big Bang that started off the cycle. It is life itself. An absence of Eternity will have no affect on Phoenix. Remove Phoenix from the equation and Eternity will not exist.
Originally posted by Mr Master
NEXT PANEL:"LIAR, you're ALL afraid of me and what I can do, as my power escalates, it Frightens the next level of the Hierarchy"
Eternity was trying to fool Protege,no wonder he says after they destroy that illusion,
"Everything REVERTED back as if NOTHING HAPPENED"
Eternity then says, "For indeed NOTHING has"Seems like someone REVERTED Time, instead of an M-Body being destroyed.
Youre speculating here. What youre trying to say is stated and doesnt stand to reason. Youre stretching in order to support your interpretation. Eternity tells them nothing did happen after they attacked his MBody and then goes on to explain his MBody to be nothing physical, just the way beings perceive his existence. He then mocks them for battling their thoughts. Its all stated clearly and conclusively. No need for fabrication.
Originally posted by Mr Master
That's untrue,Eternity must've been speaking of Multi-Eternity, as in his "Totality," because if it were true that the IG's Affect would be "non-existent" had that been his Totality in the sense of ONE Universe,
how did this happen then: hum
Thanos w/IG becoming Eternity/the actual Universe/Totality
Nope Thanos must NOT have been speaking of a Multi Eternity as such a being hadnt ever been mentioned on panel, so your assumption goes down the drain.
Eternity is basically saying that if he manifested in his totality then the IG would be nothing to him. Whether thats an idle boast or not who knows because Eternity would never do that because that would destroy the universe manifesting all that he is within that humanoid form. However thats besaides the point, as far as we know that claims unproven but what really matters is that he makes on panel a clear distinction between his mbody and the actual universe. Whilst Eternity is the universe, the humanoid figure is just a representation of Eternity for the most part. He can manifest his totality in that form, but that would mean there wouldnt be any universe anywhere else for obvious reasons. So instances where you see that humanoid figure appearing within the universe on panel, you know thats not Eternitys totality.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually the Universe imploded/was destroyed immediately after Eternity left that Universe, the only thing that remained was a single Planet ... Earth, sustained by the Humans of Earth that had evolved due the High Evolutionary's experiment:Eternity leaves his native Universe and enters a parallel Universe that is a Void/Emptiness
Next Panel that shows the Earth/Universe:
Eternity's native Universe immediately implodes:
"The Earth still exists, self-contained and self sustained (by the Humans) in the Universe the Entity left behind"
"The Entity's departure however, has deprived that Universe of meaning"Next Panel that shows the Earth/Universe
"and it implodes upon itself, till what seemed Infinite Space could be bounded by a Nutshell" (the Earth, "self-contained and self sustained" by the Humans)
Immediately,
and make no mistake folks, NOTHING was left of that Universe except for the Earth, "self-contained and self sustained" by the Humans
"Thus ENDS One continuum of Time and Space"
And guess what Eternity did after he left that Universe behind that IMPLODED due to his departure?
Eternity Explodes/Creates/Becomes a Universe.
Yet some will argue Eternity is not a Universe.
Silly boy. Your smugness as ever comes too soon. Whenever are you going to learn that youre just not good enough.
You've only gone and aided my argument with these scans. 😉
Youre quite correct. Eternity is the universe. However your mistake was in thinking that that humanoid figure was always the totality of the universe when it appearred on panel.
How can the totality of the universe, appear within its totality? 😕
While Eternity CAN manifest his totality in that humanoid form, instances on panel where you see that mbody form within the universe are clearly not occassions where it is his totality.
We’ve seen Eternity show his reluctance to manifest his totality here
Your scans illustrate just why that is the case. That unfortunately for your case is ALL that they do.
I pity you for your wasted time. 😱
-GS
Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually the Universe imploded/was destroyed immediately after Eternity left that Universe, the only thing that remained was a single Planet ... Next Panel that shows the Earth/Universe:
minor point, but what you showed was NOT the next panel. the next panel has the entity splitting in 2. nevertheless, it does not change the fact that this "self-sustaining earth" remained within . . .
THE UNIVERSE THE ENTITY LEFT BEHIND! it just cannot get any more clearly stated on panel than that. well, perhaps it can:
". . . UNTIL TIME AND DEATH COMMENCE ANEW IN THIS UNIVERSE."
this said by the HE, AFTER the implosion . . .
if, as you so steadfastly contend, the universe actually IS the m-body, it should have been "destroyed/rendered non-existent" the instant the m-body LEFT the universe and entered the void. it wouldn't "implode", it would simply cease to be. it wouldn't be "rendered meaningless", it would simply cease to exist. or have been carried along into the void . . .
the m-body is NOT the totality of the universe. it is a representation of the universe. the old universe was rendered meaningless and imploded because the SENTIENCE left. not because the 'body' left.
"and it implodes upon itself, till what seemed Infinite Space could be bounded by a Nutshell" (the Earth, "self-contained and self sustained" by the Humans)Immediately,
and make no mistake folks, NOTHING was left of that Universe except for the Earth, "self-contained and self sustained" by the Humans
where does it say IMMEDIATELY . . .?
and make no mistakes folks -- the entity left through the void and behind it . . .
LEFT A UNIVERSE.
what finally became of that universe the entity left? it imploded, yes. what does that mean? it means the matter in the universe (matter which SHOULD have left with the entity were the m-body the ACTUAL universe . . .) collapsed -- not "WAS DESTROYED", as mm said above -- all the mass in the universe merely collapsed into a tiny, nutshell-sized point. in fact, apparently, it was, in effect -- 'SLEEPING'!
"THE SENTIENT EARTH WAITS FOR A NEW ENTITY TO COME AND WAKEN THE COSMOS AROUND IT!"
you can SEE the universe collapsing around the protected earth. (so, no, the earth did not shrink or get condensed . . . ) the cosmos/universe undeniably remained behind, condensed to the size of a nutshell (this was a near-reverse big-bang), simply awaiting a time when it would be reawakened. time and space in that universe of course WAS meaningless -- eternity/infinity/death had withdrawn their sentience, so time and space effectively DID cease to exist, but the cosmos still remained. sentience, NOT the m-body, is what is necessary for the universe to exist. the m-body is NOT the totality of the universe. it is a representation of that totality. there is a huge difference. eternity himself says the same thing in GS's scan:
"IF THIS WERE NOT MERELY A VISUALIZATION OF MY TOTALITY . . ."
he reiterates the idea when we see the beyonder and protege SEEMINGLY 'destroy' the m-body. after they 'destroy' the m-body, what is the result?
protege: "EVERYTHING REVERTED BACK AS IF NOTHING HAPPENED!"
eternity m-body: "FOR NOTHING HAS!" then later: " . . . ETERNITY IS AN ABSTRACT ENTITY WITH NO PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES. WHAT YOU THINK YOU SEE IS MERELY A MANIFESTATION OF YOUR CONCEPT OF MY VERY ESSENCE . . ."
m-body MEANS "manifestation body" and they allow beings to communicate and interact with the sentience of the universe. the universe HAS no physical attributes so how COULD it appear as the totality of the universe WITHIN the universe which it represents??
is the m-body capable of containing the 'whole' of eternity? sure -- this IS a comic afterall -- but it didn't do so when adam attacked it (and just how exactly can you say that "TOTALITY" was a reference to MULTI-ETERNITY?? multi had not even EXISTED in comics yet!? once again you jump straight to multiversal when there is no need and not even a SHRED of evidence to support such a claim . . . .) so why would we assume it has manifested its entirety in other m-bodies?
you're right in one thing though-- artists have used the m-body as a 'representation' of the universe many times. destruction of the m-body is a way for the artist to depict the universe ending so we know what's happening. BUT, when that is shown to be the case, what SURROUNDS the m-body? nothingness. the artist WANTS to show us the universe is being wiped out -- and along with it, the sentience.
the rub though is this: when has the universe been shown to end when an m-body, manifested WITHIN the universe, has been destroyed?
never.
except for the one time in THE END. and what happens when THAT m-body is destroyed? there is still a "universe" left behind in the form of stars. the only way you can rationalize this is to speculate that thanos absorbed everything so fast that "no void was made" and that he went on to absorb the entire MULTIVERSE. a multiverse that is NEVER mentioned in the series, while UNIVERSE is repeatedly mentioned. you are ignoring the terminology and ascribing to it a meaning that suits your theory. if 'universe' DID mean 'universe', your theory of THE END and of M-BODIES, would . . . implode. 🙂
Yet some will argue Eternity is not a Universe. 😉
😖hifty:
Same way Thanos's body was still on that platform in Space when he became Eternity.
thanos is a physical being who BECAME abstract. his OWN body became meaningless upon ascendency. eternity is an abstract who manifests in various forms as an m-body that is a representation of the abstract. but don't let me steer you away from your statement, because in a way you are exactly right: much like thanos's own body became meaningless, the m-body is meaningless as the sentience of the universe, not the body that represents said sentience, is what is important.
Thanos's spirit/consciousness became the Universe, and he left his body behind like a shell.
yep. but how did he assume the totality of the universe, if said totality was already contained in the captive eternity m-body . . .?
And on top of this, Eternity was trying to fool Protege.
🤨
where did you get that . . .? beyonder and protege destroyed an m-body. that destruction did NOT result in the destruction of the universe. of course it didn't, because m-bodies are meaningless and are NOT the sum total of the universe -- they REPRESENT said totality. if the former WERE the case, destruction of that m-body would have ended the universe. which it didn't. 😉
I disagree.
no worries. 🙂
Eternity's M-Body has been the Universe since back in the day, no arguing that.
correction: the m-body has been a REPRESENTATION of the universe since back in the day . . . 😄
If i make a thread about each of these big Phoenix issues right now, will you agree to join me in each one and ONLY argue or present scans or points relevant to the threads issue?
Id like to start off with the M'kraan incident. What do you say? 🙂
Ive been saying i'd do this for a long time but im ridiculously lazy so its taken till now.
Will you join me and if you find that you cannot bring anything new to the table in this crystal debate, then will you concede and agree never again to bring up points on the issue that ive countered? 🙂
