Come on Emmie! Im not going to debate with you anymore until you agree to have this out one issue at a time where the rules are no scans irrelevant to the specific thread topic and the same goes for posts.
We wont move on to a new thread and of course a new Phoenix issue until one side cannot counter the others points with anything new. When that happens the other side must agree never to bring up said issues again unless new evidence has come to light.
Do you agree MrM? 🙂
Originally posted by leonidas
minor point, but what you showed was NOT the next panel. the next panel has the entity splitting in 2. nevertheless, it does not change the fact that this "self-sustaining earth" remained within . . .
THE UNIVERSE THE ENTITY LEFT BEHIND! it just cannot get any more clearly stated on panel than that. well, perhaps it can:
". . . UNTIL TIME AND DEATH COMMENCE ANEW IN THIS UNIVERSE."
this said by the HE, AFTER the implosion . . .
When Eternity enters the VOID, it's also a Universe.
So it makes no difference if it says, the "Universe the Entity left behind"
Because an Imploded Universe is a destroyed Universe.
Originally posted by leonidas
if, as you so steadfastly contend, the universe actually IS the m-body, it should have been "destroyed/rendered non-existent" the instant the m-body LEFT the universe and entered the void. it wouldn't "implode", it would simply cease to be. it wouldn't be "rendered meaningless", it would simply cease to exist. or have been carried along into the void . . .
Interesting,
so WHY did the Universe Eternity Left immediately Implode?
While Eternity was able to CREATE ANOTHER UNIVERSE with his M-Body.
Originally posted by leonidas
the m-body is NOT the totality of the universe. it is a representation of the universe. the old universe was rendered meaningless and imploded because the SENTIENCE left. not because the 'body' left.
Again,
so WHY did the Universe Eternity Left immediately Implode?
While Eternity was able to CREATE ANOTHER UNIVERSE with his M-Body.
Originally posted by leonidas
where does it say IMMEDIATELY . . .?
It's self explanatory?
Originally posted by leonidas
and make no mistakes folks -- the entity left through the void and behind it LEFT A UNIVERSE.
That IMPLODED immediately after Eternity Left.
While Eternity CREATED another Universe with his M-Body, that you claim is not a universe,
How did he CREATE a UNIVERSE with it then? 😕
Originally posted by leonidas
what finally became of that universe the entity left? it imploded, yes. what does that mean? it means the matter in the universe (matter which SHOULD have left with the entity were the m-body the ACTUAL universe . . .) collapsed -- not "WAS DESTROYED", as mm said above -- all the mass in the universe merely collapsed into a tiny, nutshell-sized point. in fact, apparently, it was, in effect -- 'SLEEPING'!
Were does it say it was sleeping/
The Universe Imploded, period.
It was destroyed because Eternity left, Eternity ended up CREATING Another Universe with his M-Body,
so how can you say Eternity's M-Body is not a Universe?
When Eternity CREATED a UNIVERSE with his M-Body.
Originally posted by leonidas
"THE SENTIENT EARTH WAITS FOR A NEW ENTITY TO COME AND WAKEN THE COSMOS AROUND IT!"
Just like Eternity woke the Universe that he entered,
by CREATING/BECOMING a Universe in the VOID of Space that's left behind after a Universe IMPLODES.
Originally posted by leonidas
you can SEE the universe collapsing around the protected earth. (so, no, the earth did not shrink or get condensed . . . ) the cosmos/universe undeniably remained behind, condensed to the size of a nutshell (this was a near-reverse big-bang), simply awaiting a time when it would be reawakened. time and space in that universe of course WAS meaningless -- eternity/infinity/death had withdrawn their sentience, so time and space effectively DID cease to exist, but the cosmos still remained. sentience, NOT the m-body, is what is necessary for the universe to exist. the m-body is NOT the totality of the universe. it is a representation of that totality. there is a huge difference. eternity himself says the same thing in GS's scan:
"IF THIS WERE NOT MERELY A VISUALIZATION OF MY TOTALITY . . ."
he reiterates the idea when we see the beyonder and protege SEEMINGLY 'destroy' the m-body. after they 'destroy' the m-body, what is the result?
protege: "EVERYTHING REVERTED BACK AS IF NOTHING HAPPENED!"
ternity m-body: "FOR NOTHING HAS!" then later: " . . . ETERNITY IS AN ABSTRACT ENTITY WITH NO PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES. WHAT YOU THINK YOU SEE IS MERELY A MANIFESTATION OF YOUR CONCEPT OF MY VERY ESSENCE . . ."m-body MEANS "manifestation body" and they allow beings to communicate and interact with the sentience of the universe. the universe HAS no physical attributes so how COULD it appear as the totality of the universe WITHIN the universe which it represents?? is the m-body capable of containing the 'whole' of eternity? sure -- this IS a comic afterall -- but it didn't do so when adam attacked it (and just how exactly can you say that "TOTALITY" was a reference to MULTI-ETERNITY?? multi had not even EXISTED in comics yet!? once again you jump straight to multiversal when there is no need and not even a SHRED of evidence to support such a claim . . . .) so why would we assume it has manifested its entirety in other m-bodies?
I disagree,
and there was no Cosmos left behind.
The Universe collapse after Eternity left, and the Earth was left self sustained in the Void that followed it.
Originally posted by leonidas
except for the one time in THE END. and what happens when THAT m-body is destroyed? there is still a "universe" left behind in the form of stars. the only way you can rationalize this is to [b]speculate that thanos absorbed everything so fast that "no void was made" and that he went on to absorb the entire MULTIVERSE. a multiverse that is NEVER mentioned in the series, while UNIVERSE is repeatedly mentioned. you are ignoring the terminology and ascribing to it a meaning that suits your theory. if 'universe' DID mean 'universe', your theory of THE END and of M-BODIES, would . . . implode. [/B]
That's another topic that's been covered rediculous times.
Originally posted by leonidas
thanos is a physical being who BECAME abstract. his OWN body became meaningless upon ascendency. eternity is an abstract who manifests in various forms as an m-body that is a representation of the abstract. but don't let me steer you away from your statement, because in a way you are exactly right: much like thanos's own body became meaningless, the m-body is meaningless as the sentience of the universe, not the body that represents said sentience, is what is important.
Nice.
Originally posted by leonidas
yep. but how did he assume the totality of the universe, if said totality was already contained in the captive eternity m-body . . .?
Said totality was transfered the instant Thanos took said titalities place.
Former said totality became a shell.
Originally posted by leonidas
where did you get that . . .? beyonder and protege destroyed an m-body. that destruction did NOT result in the destruction of the universe. of course it didn't, because m-bodies are meaningless and are NOT the sum total of the universe -- they REPRESENT said totality. if the former WERE the case, destruction of that m-body would have ended the universe. which it didn't.
I explained this already, they never destroyed anything.
It never even happened.
Originally posted by leonidas
correction: the m-body has been a REPRESENTATION of the universe since back in the day . . .
Whatever you say.
Gamora enters Eternity and end up INSIDE the actual UNIVERSE:
When Stakar and Aleta pass through to the SCAR of Eternity, (which was LOCATED INSIDE the actual UNIVERSE) they ended up OUTSIDE the actual UNIVERSE by coming OUT of Eternity:
Here is the actual SCAR in the actual Universe, which is, has and always will be Eternity:
When Thanos became the actual UNIVERSE, it was Eternity's place he took:
The UNIVERSE materializing into ETERNITY before Galactus
And when Entropy ANOTHER M-Body, CREATED/BECAME the the next UNIVERSE,
guess who he became? On Panel baby.
ETERNITY!
Leonidas. Handle this one please. Its nearly 2am in the u.k so i cant be bothered to deal with his sh*t at this hour 😉
If you cant find the time i'll do it in the morning 😱
I love how he gets so smug after responding, as if the arguments all over. Ive just read through his argument and i already know how id take it down.
Hey Emmie! U gonna get back to me about my proposal or dont you think youre up to the task?
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Leonidas. Handle this one please. Its nearly 2am in the u.k so i cant be bothered to deal with his sh*t at this hour 😉If you cant find the time i'll do it in the morning 😱
I love how he gets so smug after responding, as if the arguments all over. Ive just read through his argument and i already know how id take it down.
Hey Emmie! U gonna get back to me about my proposal or are dont you think youre up to the task?
GS if I was Mr Master I would repond to this post "concession accepted" that would wind you right up. 🙂
- FO!!
Originally posted by Flame On!!
GS if I was Mr Master I would repond to this post "concession accepted" that would wind you right up. 🙂- FO!!
Youre such a lil b*stard 😂
But seriously, hes responding to Leonidas post so its his job to handle him. I took a different look at the situation, a perspective which made it alot harder for Emmie to come back at me with rubbish. Which is probably why hes responded to Leonidas post and not mine despite me posting first 😉
I'll give him till i wake up in about 10 hours 😱
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youre such a lil b*stard 😂But seriously, hes responding to Leonidas post so its his job to handle him. I took a different look at the situation, a perspective which made it alot harder for Emmie to come back at me with rubbish. Which is probably why hes responded to Leonidas post and not mine despite me posting first 😉
I'll give him till i wake up in about 10 hours 😱
Well it seems the two of you are made for each other 😉
- FO!!
Originally posted by GalacticStormOK...
I will address this issue once again and once only BigBran. Read this post and comprehend.
Originally posted by GalacticStormUmm... yes she did go somewhere to do it. What are you talking about? The only way I'm taking that feat as serious as you do, is if she had actually grabbed Eternity.
Jean never just went to another dimension where she was massive in relation to the universe and just cupped it in her hand. Is that seriously how you interpreted that scene? You really are kidding me arent you? 🤨
Did she actually grab Eternity and hold him, and hack away at him (the timestream)?
Or did she grab a universe that was just sitting there, and cut away at two people's future?
Originally posted by GalacticStormShe manipulated Scott and Emma's future... that is all. Put it in all the words you want, but it doesn't change what she did.
Jean after having amputated the HCT future materialised the 616 universe atom by atom from reality into the hospital/core of creation/white hot room (whatever the hell you want to call it). That is the feat, the demonstration of power which places Phoenix above the likes of the IG and any universal threat. Why? Because she conclusively demonstrated not only that she has access to more power than is contained within the universe, but more importantly that she can wield it effectively.
She doesn't have any combat feats. She doesn't have any feats to put her above the IG.
She held a universe (that wasn't fighting back), and she changed two people's future... wow, she is way beyond the IG.
What are you trying to get at with this?
It took time and focus too, something she wouldn't have the luxury of, when she gets stomped by the IG.
Basically, to sum this up... your arguement of this is based off of one feat that you put in your own words, out of her however long running years of comic writing, that she is above the IG?
The IG has been shown what, three times? Phoenix has been shown 100's of times, and you have only one feat, to use, that Phoenix is above the IG?
That says it all right there...
Originally posted by GalacticStormShe changed two people's future... 😐
Think of all of the matter and energy contained within the universe. For Jean to be able to break that down to its component parts (atoms) and materialise it INTACT within the White Hot Room to inspect within the palm of her hand then she conclusively must have wielded more power than was contained within otherwise it would not have been possible.
Originally posted by GalacticStormShe changed two people's future... 😐
The abstracts are just beings OF the universe. Representations of the concepts within the universe. Phoenix casually put all of that on its deathbed and manipulated all of that in the palm of her hand. Thanos gained dominion of a little purple globule in Jeans hand, something she manipulated like putty. Something she fatally wounded before deciding to save. 😬
*Irrelevent*
I just thought of something, Eternity makes no sense. Is he the universe, and is the universe just an M-body of him?
Or does your feat just plain not follow Marvel...
*Relevent again*
Based on your logic, if she had grabbed the abstracts, then that would mean that she had grabbed Eternity (which she didn't), and also, that the abstracts reside in Eternity... which would also not follow Marvel, since:
How did Death have her timeless war with him, if she resided in him?
How is Infinity and Eternity always shown together (when they are shown)?
And, The IG had time under it's control, how is she going to manipulate him? How does that little feat make her above him?
Originally posted by GalacticStormI know, and yours is based off of one feat that you think is, oh so great, that you interpet into godlike abilities.
Your argument is weak.
BigBran thats a garbled mess. That post reads like its written in stream of consciousness 😬
Youre missing the point with the WHR scene. She travelled to the WHR where the rules of time and space dont apply which explains her size in relation to the universe that she materialized within it.
The crux of the matter is she telekinetically controlled all the matter andenergy that composed that universe and materialized it from outside to within the WHR intact.
She conclusively wielded more power than was contained within said universe, otherwise she wouldnt have been able to pull off the feat.
Eternity is the name of the abstract that embodys the timeline. He is an aspect of the actual universe. He is how the sentience of the actual universe represents itself, within itself.
Jean manipulated the atoms of the actual universe in her hands like putty. She never dealt with a mere representation of the universe (MBody) like Thanos did.
Jean never JUST altered the future. Thats what she did at the end of the healing process, however its what she did before that that made for the truly impressive feat. The amputation of the future and the manipulation of all of the universes matter at an atomic level.
The Eternity MBody that Thanos punked is just a representation of the universe within the universe that the universe uses to act within itself. It does not possess the totality of the universes power. Phoenix dealt with the actual universe. The universe of which all of the abstracts are a part of.
Your flawed understanding of what happened is what leads you to aggressively object to everything i say on the matter. Before responding take the time out to read the comic and comprehend what im saying.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Leonidas. Handle this one please. Its nearly 2am in the u.k so i cant be bothered to deal with his sh*t at this hour
Yea Leonidas,
the great one is too time consumed to acknowledge this opponent, why don't you pick up the slack, since you're more in "my class" of filth to deal with me.
We wouldn't want his graciousness getting his hands dirty, that's for his minions and grunts to do, like yourself apparently according to this self proclaimed master of your will and action.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Hey Emmie! U gonna get back to me about my proposal or dont you think youre up to the task?
Hey Pino,
emmie these NUTS!
Originally posted by Endless Mike
If you're talking about the scene I think you are, it seemed that she was just holding a galaxy, not a universe.
It's a visualization of a Universe that represents the events of "Here Comes Tomorrow."
Phoenix is CLUELESS as to WHAT this is, or WHAT to do with it.
Jean says, "Did I have to FIX something that was dying?
Jean gets NO ANSWER!
What is it?"
Jean gets ANSWERED!
It tells her, "A badly wounded Orphan Universe...Phoenix work"
Fine.....Now WHAT does that mean?....Jean Grey DOESN'T KNOW either.
AM I LYING? LOOK AT THE SCAN!!!
"But...but WHAT's that supposed to mean?
Phoenix asked, "but what's that supposed to mean?"
AFTER She was told it's a "A badly wounded Orphan Universe ... Phoenix work"
Now, it TELLS Phoenix WHAT THAT MEANS,
"That Henry's heart's broken, that Scott succumbs to loneliness", ect..ect..
SEE, It's just a visualization of the events of Here Comes Tomorrow
Is it saying,
"This Universe needs to be Fixed in anyway?" ❌
"This Universe is injured or damaged and needs to be repaired?" ❌
"This Universe needs a Future?" ❌
So WHAT does it SAY WHEN Jean ASKED "but what's that supposed to mean?"
It responds, "That Henry's heart's broken, that Scott succumbs to loneliness", ect..ect..
(This is the OUTCOME of Here Comes Tomorrow)
NOW, to Change that OUTCOME, Phoenix did NOT manipulate the Universe.
AM I LYING?
Here is GRANT MORRISON'S and company telling us HOW Phoenix CHANGED that Future.
Just like in the Comic book, which anyone can see as plain as day.
She actually went to the past and forced Scott to be with Emma
So INSTEAD of THIS Ending:
We NOW have THIS Ending:
Been handled previously and in the end me and tiakocom highlighted just why your interpretation couldnt possibly be the case. This of course got buried under a ton of reposts. Its what you always do when you lose.
Take up the challenge and lets do this one on one once and for all. Just me and you, we'll finally settle this.
This white hot room scene is one of the issues we'll be debating. 😄
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Been handled previously and in the end me and tiakocom highlighted just why your interpretation couldnt possibly be the case. This of course got buried under a ton of reposts. Its what you always do when you lose. Take up the challenge and lets do this one on one once and for all. Just me and you, we'll finally settle this.This white hot room scene is one of the issues we'll be debating. 😄
blahblah
Originally posted by Mr Master
blahblah
I knew it wouldnt take long for you to resort to that 😬
Lets do this Emmie lets settle this once and for all. Just me and you, no intervention and the loser is not allowed to mention any of those points again. What do you say? 🙂
Surely if you spanked me you could easily do again. For you to have spanked me you must have hit me with a point i couldnt find any evidence to counter. Surely its just a case of bringing that up again? 😖hifty:
