Originally posted by leonidas
the m-body here was a conceptualization, imo,
As is all art.
Only this particular artistic depiction is of a Marvel comic book character called "Eternity" that happens to be the living embodiment of all there is in a Universe.
Originally posted by leonidas
an artists artifice.
"artifice?"
I never once felt like this artist was presenting a deceptive picture, since every depiction of Eternity by other artists has always been the same.
A blackish humanoid figure made up of Star Stuff.
Originally posted by leonidas
it was shown to show readers and gamora that she standing outside eternity. how would an artist show this otherwise?
Every drawing in a comic book expresses an action or idea, from Gwen dying in Spiderman's arms, to Gamora entering the M-body of Eternity and ending up inside the actual Universe.
I KNOW Gwen died in Spiderman's arms because that's what the Artist showed me as I'm sure every other reader, just like I KNOW Gamora entered the M-body of Eternity and ended up in the actual Universe because that's what the Artist showed me aswell as you.
Originally posted by leonidas
should they have some amorphous black cloud represent the universe?
If that were the case, then an amorphous black cloud would be the Sentience/Consciousness and Power of the Universe.
Originally posted by leonidas
are you saying that in its natural state, the universe is . . . humanoid . . .?
I'm not saying it is, but why wouldn't it be?
Just cause Eternity's M-body seems to be over 100ft or so doesn't mean he can't contain a Universe within him.
The Mkraan Crystal appears like a large building from the outside, but inside it's vastness seems endless.
Roma's Starlight Citidel is no bigger than a large sky scrapper from the outside, but it houses countless entire Dimensions inside.
It's possible we live in a creature that is so immense, we can't even realize or sense its existence.
I mean look at the Earth, it rotates at 1038 mi/hr (1669 km/hr), but because of it's massiveness in comparison with us, we never notice this in the least.
Originally posted by leonidas
eternity itself says the universe HAS no physical dimensions, and yet it takes the shape of a humanoid creature?
I understand how this fits.
In his Natural state Eternity is the actual Universe, in order to communicate he acquires an M-body that represents his Sentience/Consciousness/Totality.
This Totality of the M-body is the Power behind the actual Universe, from this M-body Eternity can manipulate all the power of it's respective Universe, even if it manifested within said Universe.
Why doesn't anyone complain about the Phoenix manifesting in it's Totality and yet sustaining the Stars as well.
When Galactus was going to erase the actual Phoenix Force (which was bonded to Rachel Summers) from existence, the Lights in the Universe were turning off.
"my master's concluded that Phoenix's continued existence is a threat to his own survival that he can't except"
Rachel was never just another Avatar, Rachel was one with the actual Phoenix Force,
The Phoenix Force itself told Rachel, "You are the ONE TRUE PHOENIX"
The Phoenix Force tells Rachel, "ALL I have become, You ARE Too"
Betsy can see all her Alternate versions in the White Hot Room
Rachel only has 4 Aspects of Her PAST-Self, NO Alternates
Rachel doesn't have an Alternate version of herself anywhere in the Multi-verse:
"in ALL the Alternate Dimensions we visited, NO analogue for Rachel Summers ... never another Phoenix"
Ok fine there is no disputing that, now let's continue this in the next post:
continues...
Rachel complies, and excepts her fate:
"it's only one LIFE he wants ... I give it to him"
And when Rachel Summers (the Phoenix Force) is being drained:
"Galactus the Stars, they are going out"
Then Roma says,
"that child (Rachel Summers) is Phoenix, living embodiment of ONE of the primal forces, you can no more divide her spirit from flesh than you can life from death, there is a natural order to her being, as to yours, and all creation"
I first though Roma meant Phoenix couldn't be killed no matter what, but the next panel clears that up nicely.
Roma then says,
Galactus then says,
"my sustenance is living Planets, the Phoenix can obliterate an entire cosmos"
Then Mistress or in this case "Mr" Death responds with,
"and from that death, bring about new life, but you're CHANGING that, BREAKING the Eternal PATTERN"
So the Phoenix Force can be erased, that's glorious!
And guess what?
Death and Galactus would survive, as would Eternity but as a Void (which would become Oblivion after it's Entropy)
"Is that your wish Galactus? ... to condemn the cosmos to ultimate extinction, and yourself to an Eternity in an Infinite Void, (so Galactus would SURVIVE) "can even you endure such desolation?" (only the existences that NEED Stars to survive would die)
Death is so cool when it says,
"unless that's what you really want? ... You've handed so many over to my care, why not lay down your burdens, and JOIN them?" (so Death SURVIVES too)
Finally Galactus releases the actual Phoenix Force and ALLOWS it to exist:
So here we have the Phoenix Force existing in the 616 Earth Plane through Rachel, and also carrying out it's Cosmic purpose of sustaining the Stars of the Universe which can ONLY be performed in it's Natural State.
Can't Eternity in the same fashion manifest entirely while still sustaining the Universe?
Originally posted by leonidas
eternity itself also says it was not shown in its totality.
When did Eternity say this?
Originally posted by leonidas
we have seen eternity appear the size of galactus and larger, and the size of dr strange. clearly those aren't the same m-bodies. is the totality of the universe encompassed in an m-body the size of dr strange and appearing WITHIN the universe? makes no sense . . .
I personally have never seen an M-body the size of Dr Strange, can you refer me to the issue.
I know that when Eternity manifested before Strange in this occasion, it was in the streets of New York, Eternity was bigger than buildings and the public saw it along with Strange:
"the Midnight SKY is COLLAPSING ... FALLING in upon the Earth upon which they stand transfixed"
"EVERY ONE of its STARWORLDS Falling straight down on them!"
"as the Black STUFF of SPACE takes SHAPE ... a SHAPE Dr Strange knows all too well"
"Towering above the Greenwich Village Skyline, FRAMED against absolute BLANK EMPTINESS, there stands ETERNITY!"
"below the crowds slip from shock into stark, raving fear, as more more of their numbers become AWARE"
Originally posted by leonidas
but he DIDN'T replace the m-body. the m-body remained behind, apparently devoid of a driving force. which makes perfect sense of course because the sentience that drives it WAS replaced. thanos essentially became the life force of the universe. again, why would the m-body remain behind if it was the totality of teh universe?
So long as the Sentience is within that M-body, that Mo-body is the Totality of the Universe.
So I think we're sort of agreeing here.
Originally posted by Ethereal
Eternity does NOT have all the power of the universe, in EVERY aspect, under his disposal.
We're talking about M-body's not Aspects.
And Eternity only uses ONE M-body at a time, which he does indeed transfer ALL his power into.
Do you have evidence to proove otherwise?
Originally posted by Ethereal
You would think that contradicts his conception; I think if anyone here has read more than just a few cosmic-esque comics, they'd know that.
I've read many Comic books, the Marvel Cosmology is my favorite Comic book discussion to have because it's what I most indulge.
If you disagree with my view or the view of others, that's fine, but you really shouldn't make yourself out to be a marvel Cosmic guru, (by suggesting others read JUST a "few cosmic-esque comics" cause your opinion is inconsequential and not supported on panel)
What I have found about the Phoenix Force in it's Natural State is:
a Universe dies (Eternity) and a new beginning comes when a Spark (Phoenix Force) causes another Big Bang and a new Universe is formed. Phoenix ensures ressurection from death or "the ending of all, and the beginning of all."
Phoenix is the Spark of creation for a Universe, not the Multiverse. She ensures that the cycle of a Universe continues.
Phoenix plays a role in the self perpetuating process where the old Universe dies and the new Universe is born. She doesn't create anything. She just ensures the cycle continues.
This is ALL theoretical evidence though because the actual EVENT has NEVER taken place visually On Panel.
But to say Phoenix is the Big Bang would imply Phoenix creates these Universes where she SPARKS Big Bangs which would be inaccurate.
I will agree though that again, theoretically on panel, the Phoenix Force in it's Natural State is the fire that implodes a Universe during it's Big Bang, but NOT the CREATION Cycle of that same Big Bang.
The Creation Cycle of a Big Bang is a self perpetuating process which has NOTHING to do with Phoenix.
Which is probably why Phoenix (in ANY Form) has NEVER Created even a single Universe On Panel.
The Phoenix Force did destroy a Universe on panel, but it was a "WHAT IF" comic book, (still, as goofy and nonsensical WHAT IF's are, they are canon)
Originally posted by qqqqqqq
lets see whether GS would concede, which i think is very unlikely.
It is highly unlikely Galactic Storm would concede. seems very passionate about Phoenix and judging from the previous lengths of his posts, is willing to continue this discussion. In fact, neither side seems willing to concede and both continue to debate one another.
😬
But at some point, (like after 30 pages of discussion), it becomes evident that two people are never going to agree. Although neither side would admit it, this is more likely a situation of "agree to disagree".
Mr Master. All of your scans you've presented CAN be interpreted in the way I have illustrated. On top of that there are multiple occassions on panel where it is stated flat out by Eternity himself that there is a difference between an Mbody and his totality and that his Mbody is both JUST a representation and a perception of said totality therefore conclusively confirming my interpretation.
Both points are stated flat out. You are ignoring said instances because the on panel statements from the character in question doesnt fit in with your views and youre just posting scan after scan alongside YOUR interpretation of them. NOT presenting scans where your interpretation is actually stated in a non ambiguous way.
Just to reiterate your scans are open to interpretation. You have interpreted them one way, i have interpreted them another way. My interpretation of said scans is backed by words from Eternity himself directly related to the matter and by official handbook bios. You have nothing but scans and your opinion of whats going on in them. Youre ignoring whats clearly stated multiple times and yet you have the audacity to criticize others for apparently ignoring the blatantly stated.
Unless you can show a scan of Eternity stating that his Mbody when within a universe is the totality of the universe then its pretty much game over. No matter how much you swamp this thread with scans alongside your biased commentary.
His Mbody whilst WITHIN a universe conclusively cannot be the totality of the universe, otherwise what is he walking in? His Mbody within reality cannot possess the totality of the universes power or there would be nothing but a void around him.
From outside reality, of course the universe can be presented by the Mbody form, how else are the characters to perceive the universe, how else are we readers suppose to visualize that which is boundless (it is space after all) without the Mbody being drawn?
Didnt Eternity state that the Mbody was just a way for characters to perceive the universe?
My interpretation coincides with whats on panel. Yours ignores it.
You are using scans of an outside of reality perspective (The Gamora ones and the Genis ones) to support fact that the Mbody shown WITHIN the universe is the totality of the universe. No can do im afraid. With that off the list you have absolutely nothing.
N evidence whatsoever to support the notion that that Mbody in all appearances is the totality of the universe. Please find me statements from Eternity stating that that Mbody is the totality of the universe. I have Eternity stating flat out that its not:
Theres a clear difference between his Mbody and totality. In line with the other source its just a visualization of his totality. The perception lower beings have of the universe and nothing more, a way of representing the universe to readers artistically.
Im not arguing point for point anymore, i really dont need to. All of your scans can be interpreted differently and my interpretation has on panel statements directly relating to the matter in line with it. Mere opinion just will not do.
Originally posted by qqqqqqq
lets see whether GS would conceed, which i think is very unlikely.
I dont need to. My points actually stated on panel by the character in question themselves on multiple occassions. All of Mr Masters evidence is just scans alongside HIS OPINION. The point hes trying to make isnt conclusively stated or depicted on panel. His evidence can be interpreted differently and with equal validity. His interpretation contradicts Eternitys own comments on the subject. Mine does not.
His interpretation is a means to have a tool to use in his Anti Phoenix campaign. If the Mbodys are NOT the totality of the concepts they represent, then that makes Thanos' feats with the IG far less than Phoenixes which is why he is so stubbornly arguing despite Eternitys comments flat out confirming my interpretation.
This is ALL about the anti phoenix campaign which is why his barrage of meaningless scans was followed by a quick biased take on the Phoenix Force. 🙄
Originally posted by Evangel94
After reading the debates, I'm going to go with Thanos and the Infinity Gauntlet.
Follow Eternitys word on the matter, NOT Mr Masters interpretation of whats going on. I think Eternity knows himself just a bit better than Thanos. He states that the Mbody is NOT his totality, he states its just a representation. The comics state that Eternity and Infinity have multiple Mbodys so all in all noone can credibly argue the notion that in every appearance of the Mbody it is the totality of the universe. That is what MM is arguing, open your eyes analyse the scans and read for yourself. Dont let someone with an agenda tell you what to think about those scans.
Heres a brilliant quote from Horrificus in relation to Mr Master:
That is all. The writer said it. The comic says it.
There is no reason to look into it anymore. If somebody has an arguement that is totally based upon me having to ignore what I am seeing and reading, I say that is a very POOR arguement.
Those were Mbodys that Thanos dealt with and as such Phoenix has displayed FAR greater feats than Thanos did with the IG.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Actualy, I think that EVERYONE may be misinterpreting the M-Body.Does it definitivly have a set amount of power? Or is it possible that it continuosly draws power from the concept?
Mr M is arguing that it is the totality of the universe. That that Mbody you see running around in the universe is ALL of the universe in all of its appearances. As such hes arguing that it has a set power level. Im saying its just an Mbody which can have a variable power level dependent on the needs of the abstract.
Dont respond with anything other than a scan where Eternity states that his Mbody is always his totality (i.e the whole universe)
No scans of The Eternity Mbody saying i am all that is or any other inconclusive sh*t like that. The Mbody is after all a medium for which the universe can speak so it saying it is all that is doesnt equate to the Mbody being all that is.
While youre at it, please find time to get the challenge thread up and running. I find it rather odd that you've got the time to post massive essays here in this thread and contribute to others and yet you cant do the same in our one on one versus match? 😖hifty:
Its cool. Like you said, youre "busy" 🙄 😂
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Follow Eternitys word on the matter, NOT Mr Masters interpretation of whats going on.
i think you should let us have our own opinions in this thread don't tell us to follow Eternity and not mr m as if your opinion is more valid than his i think mr m has done a superb job in defining the marvel cosmology and how it works always backed up with evidence
i read both your interpretations and mr masters and i agree with mr masters 100% i don't thi9nk your making much sense to tell you the truth
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Mr Master. All of your scans you've presented CAN be interpreted in the way I have illustrated.
no they cant your opinion contradicts what has taken place in marvel since the beginning concerning eternity
thanos 10/10
Originally posted by Smoki
i think you should let us have our own opinions in this thread don't tell us to follow Eternity and not mr m as if your opinion is more valid than his i think mr m has done a superb job in defining the marvel cosmology and how it works always backed up with evidence
i read both your interpretations and mr masters and i agree with mr masters 100% i don't think your making much sense to tell you the truththanos 10/10
I disagree Smoki but then i've made nearly as many posts as you have since you joined in July today alone. 😕
