Originally posted by id369What she initially held is Sublime. That much cannot be disputed. This green globular mass in her hands was pulled straight out og Hank McCoy, whom Sublime hid inside since Sublime wanted control over the Phoenix's powers when he compelled Hank to inject himself:
I promptly responded to his PMS. I hope I can get this tourney going.Apparently not, since damage is not acknowledged anywhere in the comic or any bio for that matter.
The comic states she is holding a universe in her hands. Why would anyone misinterpret or add on what is clearly stated in the comic?
Sublime essensence did not just reside within Hank alone. Jean acknowledges what she is holding in her hands, “The Entire Future” amputated from the timeline.
What she initially held, was the current now “HCT” with no past or future. The comic then proceeds to show, Jean materialize the entire universe, in order to prevent HCT from ever happening.
Weather you think if a comic should do “A” or “B”, is besides the point. We follow what we read, and stated in the comic. Not an expressed opinion, unless you happen to be the vary author that wrote such comic.
Fact is, you're making the same double-standard assumption that others are making. Jean is holding the actual universe, but the phoenix flaring up inside it is only a representation of her power on it, because if everything that was in her hands was an actuality, the phoenix flaring up would have wreaked havoc on it. At the very least, we know that Franklin was actually holding an entire universe inside his ball which he created on his own and Uatu was holding his Earth-311 universe in his hands and retains it in his heart. Neither of which Phoenix did. So Franklin > Uatu > Phoenix. If that's cool to you, that's your cup of tea. Frankly, I find it preposterous. You can affect universal change without using telekinetic control over all atoms. It's obvious to me that she uses her telekinesis to extract Sublime, as depicted on-panel and confirmed in secondary sources. That's how she used her telekinesis to affect universal change, as confirmed here. It's that simple:
Originally posted by id369I think that Scott prevents that future from repeating itself in Earth-616. I think that's what the handbook entry means.
Why are we trusting a handbook again? This one already carries a big, error in its chronological depiction.And exactly how is it, that 616 Scoot altered the future of reality 15104?
Seriously I cant be the only one that, sees these big gauging inconsistencies that bio claims?
And you still dont get it.
Time to break it down because my previous explanation was obviously too high level.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No. Marvel's secondary sources confirm that extracting Sublime's atoms from Beast telekinetically resulted in the entire future reality being disinfected. If you also read further, it says that she symbolically watered it with her heart's blood. Nothing says that she telekinetically controlled all the atoms in the universe to accomplish either Sublime's disinfection or Scott's mind-nudge:
Supposition and assumption. Secondary sources DO NOT confirm that extracting Sublimes atoms disinfected reality. They do confirm that the removal of his essence disinfected reality.
Do not throw in the word atoms in an effort to support your fantasy that the "telekinetic control of all of those atoms" reference was merely a reference to her extracting Sublime from reality as opposed to her manipulating the atoms of the universe.
Handbooks give a summary of what occurs in titles. They do not give an extensive breakdown of all that occurs. Omission does not equate to something not being the case. Understand that.
The significant points in the scene were that the threat of Sublime was removed from reality and a new future was grown therby continuing the 616 timeline. A detailed breakdown of the hows and whys was not necessary.
Furthermore Jean didnt control the atoms of the universe to either disinfect reality or to directly grow a new future.
Jean removed Sublime from reality. She then stated she had to "amputate" (notice the medical terminology) the future timeline because it was too infested.
She was told her actions had wounded the universe and she needed to heal the patient(the universe)
Jean was then directed to the "hospital"(At which point the M'kraan crystal access point to the WHR is shown on panel)
After entering the "hospital" where she was directed to go to treat the wounded universe, Jean opens her hands and over the panels small globules of energy materialise in her palm whilst the Consciousness tells us that "telekinetic control of all of those atoms isnt easy".
The Consciousness then tells readers its a universe.
Once again, just to break it down for you, the control of the universes atoms was to bring it into the hospital for treatment. It had nothing to do with the disinfection. And wasnt a direct attempt to grow a new future. It was done so that she could treat the patient(heal the universe) by applying her power to it and altering Scotts reaction.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Fact is, you have to contradict yourself that within her hands is an actuality and a representation, when it's much easier to read it as a representation of both:
I havent contradicted myself at all. You are seeing contradiction everywhere in your attempts to have a relevant point.
Why does Jeans Phoenix signature appearing as she applies her power have to mean the universe is a representation?
Jean materialised the universe for treatment as clearly shown on panel.
The point that Jean was dealing with the actual universe and not a representation is supported by her updated bio where she is given the ability to manipulate atomic structures on a universal scale.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
She amputated Sublime and as a result, amputated the entire future. Which is similar to the way Legion went back in time, killed Xavier and ended up crystalizing the entire future until time righted itself. Neither of which requires telekinetic control of the atoms of the entire universe. And why you're mentioning Franklin Richards is beyond me. Yes, Franklin Richards can actually create an entire universe with his mind. Phoenix, at best, held an existing one in her hands (well according to you). Uatu also held one in his hands and keeps it in his heart.
I've read all the pertinent storylines. The only time I even thought to think that the small universe depicted in her hands was the entire actual universe was while reading that exaggerated account here on KMC. Seriously, Franklin Richards > Uatu > Phoenix according to you. Richards created an entire universe. Uatu holds and transfers an entire universe into his heart. Phoenix pulls an already existing wounded universe into the White Hot Room. If you seriously want to base your cosmic hierarchy on feats of astronomical proportions, then apply it across the board. Not just selectively according to your personal motivations.
A load of waffle and poor logic.
I have already addressed most of this above.
Franklin created a pocket universe. Do some research into why a pocket universe is very different from a standard universe and understand why youre just illustrating your ignorance.
Uatu was given a fragment of a timeline that was being erased, however the top Watcher managed to conserve that fragment. There is a difference in scale between a fragment of a timeline and the main timeline. I established this in my last post and yet you have still blabbed on here with disjointed logic.
You keep saying this doesnt need tk control, that doesnt need tk control and youre wasting your time because youre misunderstanding exactly where im saying the feat occurred and for what purpose.
At the end of the day, the feat is artistically depicted and this was picked up on and supported in Jeans bio. Give it up.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Fact is, you're making the same double-standard assumption that others are making. Jean is holding the actual universe, but the phoenix flaring up inside it is only a representation of her power on it, because if everything that was in her hands was an actuality, the phoenix flaring up would have wreaked havoc on it.
Why? Because every application of Phoenixs power must be destructive energy? Isnt that your assumption? 😕
We're told its the universe on panel, Jeans updated powerset following on from her materialising this universe on panel supports the fact that it was an actual universe. Youre officially contradicted.
Jean holds the universe, she applies her power within and as per usual her energy signature appears over the focus of her attention as it has done many times before.
Youre going nowhere with that point mate. 😬
Originally posted by GalacticStormNo, what is artistically depicted is very simple when you look at the order of events:
... At the end of the day, the feat is artistically depicted and this was picked up on and supported in Jeans bio. Give it up.
1) Jean pulls Sublime out of Beast with her telekinesis.
2) Jean asks, "Surgery complete?"
3) Jean travels to the White Hot Room. The Phoenix Force tells her that the "disinfection is complete," and she hands Sublime over to it to seal his influence away.
4) The other Phoenixes gather around her and tell her, "Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds in training, not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown."
So as you see, what did she use her telekinesis on? Sublime. As depicted artistically on-panel. As confirmed in the handbook entry dedicated to Here Comes Tomorrow. AFTER this comment that refers to the telekinesis in the past tense...
5) ... then the universe manifests itself in her hands.
6) She realizes she needs to nudge Scott in order for such a future to not repeat itself in Earth-616 and the phoenix manifests itself on top of the universe in her hands.
As confirmed artistically, the sequence of events and commentary by the other Phoenix in the White Hot Room refers to Sublime's removal as the telekinetic feat in question. Not only that, her nudging of Scott and the manifestation of the universe and phoenix in her heart was her symbolic "watering it with her heart's blood."
Stick to the plain presentation of the scans. Nowhere do the Phoenixes tell her to use her telekinesis to summon the universe into the White Hot Room. They speak of her telekinetic feat in the past tense BEFORE the universe even begins to manifest in her hands and they are obviously referring to her pulling Sublime out of Beast. And the handbook entry confirms all this:
It's not all that complicated.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No, what is artistically depicted is very simple when you look at the order of events:[b]1)
Jean pulls Sublime out of Beast with her telekinesis.
2) Jean asks, "Surgery complete?"
3) Jean travels to the White Hot Room. The Phoenix Force tells her that the "disinfection is complete," and she hands Sublime over to it to seal his influence away.
4) The other Phoenixes gather around her and tell her, "Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds in training, not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown."So as you see, what did she use her telekinesis on? Sublime. As depicted artistically on-panel. As confirmed in the handbook entry dedicated to Here Comes Tomorrow. AFTER this comment that refers to the telekinesis in the past tense...
5) ... then the universe manifests itself in her hands.
6) She realizes she needs to nudge Scott in order for such a future to not repeat itself in Earth-616 and the phoenix manifests itself on top of the universe in her hands.As confirmed artistically, the sequence of events and commentary by the other Phoenix in the White Hot Room refers to Sublime's removal as the telekinetic feat in question. Not only that, her nudging of Scott and the manifestation of the universe and phoenix in her heart was her symbolic "watering it with her heart's blood."
Stick to the plain presentation of the scans. Nowhere do the Phoenixes tell her to use her telekinesis to summon the universe into the White Hot Room. They speak of her telekinetic feat in the past tense BEFORE the universe even begins to manifest in her hands. And the handbook entry confirms all this:
It's not all that complicated. [/B]
Except for the fact that you're completely skipping a part and ignoring the fact that when they're referring to her telekinetic control of all of those atoms, something materialises in her hand that we're later told is the universe.
Following on from that point, Jeans bio is updated to say that she can telekinetically manipulate universal scale structures at an atomic level.
Universe in the hand
telekinetic control of all of those atoms
Not complicated at all. 🙂
