Thanos with IG vs White Crown Phoenix

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The only people stating these claims are a few KMC posters. Nobody on-panel suggests that she is summoning a universe atom by atom. Jean herself has no idea what's manifesting in her hands. The editors at the end of the comic in the letters page confirm that Jean averted an alternate future Earth-15104 from occuring in Earth-616 by simply nudging Scott and never mention her telekinetically summoning an entire universe. And two separate handbook entries ascribe Here Comes Tomorrow's dystopic future as being an alternate timeline and also never mention Jean telekinetically summoning an entire universe. These "stated claims" are a KMC myth.

Nope.

Jean manifests a universe in her hand whilst the Consciousness refers to how it isnt easy for her to control all of those atoms.

Jean Greys bio supports this fact by its reference to her now being able to control entire universes to the atomic level.

What youre failing to acknowledge is that omission doesnt mean that what we're saying isnt the case. The bios youre quoting refer to the significant plot points. They give a brief summary not an extensive breakdown. The significant points were that Sublime was removed from reality and a new future was grown. Was it necessary to go into detail about how she got to those points? ❌

Your bios refer to them. Those bios dont miss out one point of my interpretation yet they detail others. The bits they dont detail are stated on panel. Further to my point about omission, only one of the two bios refer to how she amputated the future. There was a point when the one that didnt mention this was the only one we had available. That didnt mean Jean didnt amputate the future because its stated she did.

As of November last year we have had a bio confirming that Jean can now manipulate universal structures. That covers my last remaining point that wasnt mentioned in the bios.

Now with that in mind, please explain to us, if the telekinetic control reference was referring to Sublimes extraction from Beast, thenwhy would this be hard for the Phoenix?

How would the removal involve telekinetic manipulation of the entire universe when only Earth was affected? 😕

Have a lil ponder ok mate?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Pot calling the kettle black my friend.

The other Phoenix? Oh silly silly. I see what you've done. You thought one of the other hosts was talking to Jean? ❌

Only the Force is. If you analysed the scene carefully you'd see that when Jean is talking, her speech bubble has an arrow coming from her direction. The black bubbles floating freely in the air is the Phoenix Consciousness that speaks to all hosts.

Sorry ODG.
I hope my point makes more sense now. 🙁

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. The White Hot Room is contained within the crystal.

Once again if you'd analysed the scene carefully, you'd see that when Jean shifts dimensions after extracting Sublime, during her exchange with the Consciousness, a bird like claw is seen advancing towards Jean and it takes Sublime away.

Jean is then urged to go to the hospital, she looks back as Sublime is taken away in the opposite direction.

Jean once in the hospital begins to materialise the universe after having been told to treat it in the WHR.

As shes doing so she is told by the Consciousness that controlling all of those atoms isnt as easy as it looks. Suggesting shes doing something telekinetically with atoms.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It then urges her to hurry(" Quick Now"😉 Which is further confirmation.

Jean asks what it is she has done and the Consciousness tells her its a universe.

Jeans latest bio confirms she can control atomic structures on a universal scale.

Your interpretation ignores that bio. Mine coincides with them all.

Fans of the Phoenix and readers of New X-men(which apparently didnt include you) knew that the Consciousness at times takes over Jean and talks to her.

Your interpretation is full of misinterpretations. All of these errors could have been avoided if instead of wading into an argument on a topic you knew so little about, you instead took a step back did all of the relevant background reading and then approached the debate.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its not the obvious. Im just here pointing out the flaws in your interpretation and countering all of your points.

Youre being selective about the scenes which youre addressing and all together it just doesnt add up. I applaud you for your efforts, but commiserations on your failure. 😬

It's over, man. Game over, man. Game over! Thanks GS, couldn't have done it better myself. 💃

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Now with that in mind, please explain to us, if the telekinetic control reference was referring to Sublimes extraction from Beast, thenwhy would this be hard for the Phoenix?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
How would the removal involve telekinetic manipulation of the entire universe when only Earth was affected? 😕

Have a lil ponder ok mate?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I have no idea what you're talking about. Seriously. The alternate future introduced in Here Comes Tomorrow is Earth-15104. Earth-616 Scott is nudged to prevent such a dystopic future from occurring.

616 Scott prevented a similar future from occurring, and did not advert HCT…right…

It was Scotts decision to walk away from Emma the set the apocalyptic events of “Here Comes Tomorrow” in motion, and Jean made sure that horrible future would never take place by making him stay with Emma Instead. Sad and ironic…and a beautiful ending to the strange romance in comics.

Are you starting to see, just how short sighted these bios are?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Wait, what? How is the act itself, the symbolism? That makes no sense. The phoenix flaring is her power subtly compelling Scott to live. The darn phoenix even repeats her line, "Live."

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Like I said, apparently Uatu = Phoenix. Except Uatu has no White Hot Room to benefit from and he is able to contain one within his own being. I'm not employing circular logic. You assumed your own conclusion. She is holding the actual universe in her hands. She must have summoned it. Therefore she is holding a summoned universe in her hands. That's circular logic.

You are aware that AoA Phoenix persevered the entire AoA timeline? And it took place within the Universe?

Except, she is holding the entire future (HCT), and the comic states to turn back and grow a better future here and now. Only to have the comic state vary clearly telekinetic control of all those atoms, of the universe she is now holding. Do not delude yourself with circular logic, and comic fact.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Don't change the order of the events. The claim of telekinetic control occurred before the manifestation of the universe ever appeared.
I'm arguing directly from the pages itself. You guys are changing the order of events in your minds, ascribing conversations to different scenes in a non-linear manner and ignoring the fact that Jean's unaware of what's going on in her hands. So why the heck would a Phoenix assuage her in the task of summoning the entire universe and address Jean directly?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
JEBUS CHRIST! How did I miss this?! That only makes your interpretation even MORE nonsensical! You just tried to make an excuse that the dialogue addressing Jean is assuaging her and recognizing how difficult telekinetic control is. And yet, she doesn't know what's happening in her hands. So if the Phoenix Force itself is speaking to her AND at the same time, doing all the work... why in holy jebus is the Phoenix Force addressing her?! My gods.
Exactly. And the only thing she ever did telekintically was extract Sublime from Beast. And as you pointed out, it makes no sense for the Phoenix Force to speak to her about "Jean's personal feat" when she has no idea what's going on and the Phoenix Force is doing it.
The Phoenix Force urges her to hurry and prevent the dystopic future from occurring in Earth-616. Simple as that.
No... you essentially helped me in defeating your very own argument. Let's go over it again. The Phoenix Force describes some feat of telekinesis by Jean herself. It is by Jean herself because the Phoenix Force addresses her directly as a White Phoenix of the Crown. It's either the extraction of Sublime or summoning an entire universe. She consciously performed the former, she had no idea what was going on when the supposed latter happened. You said, well... sometimes the Phoenmix Force takes over. Then why in holy blue blazes would the Phoenix Force ascribe the summoning of the universe to Jean then?!

It's over, man. Game over, man. Game over! Thanks GS, couldn't have done it better myself. 💃

What in heavens are you talking about friend.

I said to you that sometimes the Consciousness takes over and talks to Jean making her unaware of what shes doing.

The Consciousness talked to Jean about the difficulty of her task whilst at the same time Jean didnt know what she was doing. That is the duality what comes with her being both Jean and the Phoenix.

Whether you believe that to be stupid or not, its the nature of the Phoenix and Marvel who know better than you undoutably have accepted the fact that Jean Grey was responsible for the task and have attributed it to her powerset.

Now please tell us why extracting Sublime from Beast would necessitate total telekinetic control of all of the atoms in the universe? 😕

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Because telekinetic control of all those atoms is difficult... even for a White Phoenix of the Crown.
You assumed your conclusion. She never telekinetically manipulated the entire universe. Telekinetically removing Sublime and handing it over to the Phoenix Force disinfected the entire future reality, as stated by Jean and the Phoenix Force itself and confirmed by secondary sources.

Oh get real ODG. Removing bacteria from Beast is hard for the Phoenix? 😬

Of course removing Sublime disinfected reality but after doing so she also amputated that future which one of your bios neglects to mention. Does that mean it didnt happen? 😕

She then had to treat the patient in the hospital and to that end she materialized reality within the WHR under the guide of the Consciousness.

Simple.

I'll be back 🙂

Originally posted by id369
616 Scott prevented a similar future from occurring, and did not advert HCT…right…

It was Scotts decision to walk away from Emma the set the apocalyptic events of “Here Comes Tomorrow” in motion, and Jean made sure that horrible future would never take place by making him stay with Emma Instead. Sad and ironic…and a beautiful ending to the strange romance in comics.

Are you starting to see, just how short sighted these bios are?

Originally posted by id369
Its also the ending line when she Died at the hands of Thorn gasp no phoenix effect. The symbolism of her powers at work, is often depicted as the Phoenix Effect….by any Phoenix Host. But the actual symbolism, of what she has to accept (Letting Scott stay with Emma) fit’s the poetic symbolism mentioned by Omega Kid.

Originally posted by id369
You are aware that AoA Phoenix persevered the entire AoA timeline? And it took place within the Universe?

Except, she is holding the entire future (HCT), and the comic states to turn back and grow a better future here and now. Only to have the comic state vary clearly telekinetic control of all those atoms, of the universe she is now holding. Do not delude yourself with circular logic, and comic fact.

Originally posted by id369
Change the order of events? the Phoenix conscious is the one that guided Jean into performing her task. It stated, the vast control Jean is applying over said structure.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Lastly... why would the handbook entry dedicated to Here Comes Tomorrow agree with my simpler, less attenuated interpretation and contradict yours? Doesn't take a genius to reason why.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What in heavens are you talking about friend.

I said to you that sometimes the Consciousness takes over and talks to Jean making her unaware of what shes doing.

The Consciousness talked to Jean about the difficulty of her task whilst at the same time Jean didnt know what she was doing. That is the duality what comes with her being both Jean and the Phoenix.

Whether you believe that to be stupid or not, its the nature of the Phoenix and Marvel who know better than you undoutably have accepted the fact that Jean Grey was responsible for the task and have attributed it to her powerset.

Now please tell us why extracting Sublime from Beast would necessitate total telekinetic control of all of the atoms in the universe? 😕

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Oh get real ODG. Removing bacteria from Beast is hard for the Phoenix? 😬

Of course removing Sublime disinfected reality but after doing so she also amputated that future which one of your bios neglects to mention. Does that mean it didnt happen? 😕

She then had to treat the patient in the hospital and to that end she materialized reality within the WHR under the guide of the Consciousness.

Simple.

Apparently, according to you, she never did anything. It's obvious that she has no idea what's going on. To salvage your interpretation, you assert that the Phoenix Force took over. So then why is the Phoenix Force addressing Jean (as a White Phoenix of the Crown) personally and telling her that telekinetically controlling all those atoms is difficult... even for her. Why is the PF ascribing the feat to her... if it itself is performing it? It's done.

Originally posted by id369
If you want to use bios as the back bone of your argument, by all means be my guest. However I find your entry vary confusing with much contradictions.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I have no idea if you're arguing with me or confirming exactly what I've been saying all along. What you just said is pretty much what I've been saying all along. Nudging Scott prevents him from giving up on love and life at the Xavier Institute. Emma has to be that love. Thus preventing the dystopic future of Earth-15104.

A future similar to what happens in Earth-15104. She nudges Scott so he doesn't give up on the Xavier Institute, which starts a tumble towards the events that create the dystopic future seen in Earth-15104. - One Dumb Go.

Surely you didn’t forget your own words? Its ok to admit, when you made a mistake.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

The symbolism is the phoenix effect in the panel where it manifests in the universe in her hands. You're chasing your own tail trying to ascribe an action as a symbol. The phoenix flare in the universe is the symbol.

No, no my friend; You are chasing your own tail.
Jean was able to heal the wounded orphan universe, by symbolically watering it with her hearts blood, letting go of Cyclops and willing to live. - Alternate Univese 2005.

Did you read the little bio intercept that matches my simple description, over your difficult and contradicting claim; “If she is holding the universe, then the Phoenix Flare would totally mess up it up. Oh and it’s the poetic symbolism described by Omega Kid“. No! Phoenix effect is the visual symbolism to show Jeans Phoenix powers are at work, not the poetic sentence described by Omega Kid. And guess what many times, it vary harmless, and it didn’t when she atomically held the universe in her hands. Seriously stop beating around the bush, you seem like a smart kid.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

How many times are you going to assume your conclusion? Nowhere is it mentioned that those atoms refer to "atoms of the entire universe."

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

The only telekinesis Jean is aware of was her telekinetic extraction of Sublime from Beast. How can the Phoenix Force then speak to Jean about summoning a universe when she doesn't even know what's going on. Why would the Phoenix Force say it's difficult for her, when by your excuses, she isn't doing it herself and the Phoenix Force is?
No. The Phoenix Force referred to Jean's (as White Phoenix of the Crown) telekinetic extraction of Sublime from Beast. It's referring to something that already occurred and that Jean herself performed. Not to something that is progressively yet to occur and that the Phoenix Force itself is doing. So simple.

Jean already extracted Sublime from Hank, she did more by amputating the entire future and disinfecting it. Yet there is more, how about we avoid all of it!?! That’s right, lets make HCT never happen to do so the entire universe was manifested, not point of working with the amputated future since it wants to avoid it all together. They did so, HCT never comes to pass and New X-Men advances differently.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What's wrong with it? You reiterated everything that is confirmed by the handbook entries. Jean saved Earth-616 by nudging Scott into accepting love and life at Xavier's. This single action by Scott (as compelled by Jean), prevents the events that would have led to the dystopic future depicted in Earth-15104. I'm not even relying on the handbooks. Only showing you that the handbooks are also completely oblivious to this imaginary "summoning the universe" feat that creative Phoenix fans have propogated here on KMC.

Sure, well how about this for some propagated encouragement. If members want to know about the much debated and heated argument of HCT, check out Grant Morrison run of New X-Men, specifically issues 151-154. Judge for your selves, just what happened. Did she manifest an entire Universe? Is HCT one of the many possible futures that stem from 616 reality or a completely different one?

Peace - Id

thanos w/ig ftw

Originally posted by Nihilist
thanos w/ig ftw

thanos with the IG.

Phoenix

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Don't put words into my mouth. That's low, even for you. Extracting Sublime from Beast does not necessitate total telekinetic control of all the atoms in the universe. That is exactly the proposition that I'm arguing against. Get real, GS. The telekinesis feat was attributed to Jean herself by the Phoenix Force's statements. The only telekinetic feat she performed consciously and was even aware of was extracting Sublime from Beast..

Not true at all. After removing Sublime from reality, Jean states that she had to telekinetically amputate that future. That point is stated in one of the bio entry’s you have posted. Please keep up.

Whether Jean performed the feat and was fully aware of what she was doing or instead the Phoenix took the steering wheel it is irrelevant because they are bonded. It is Jeans mutation to wield the Phoenix and part of the nature of a host is that the Force takes over or guides from time to time. Doesn't discredit Jeans feat as it’s just the nature of the Phoenix entity.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Even by your own admission, the Phoenix Force would be the one summoning the entire universe because it takes over, which would help explain why Jean is completely oblivious. Yet... the conundrum here is, the Phoenix Force ascribes the telekinetic feat to Jean herself. You shot yourself in the foot..

Jean is the Phoenix, Phoenix is Jean. As a Phoenix she shares her body with the Phoenix Consciousness. That is the very nature of the entity. This has always been the case. What was done, was achieved through Jean in her role as the Phoenix, so your attempts to offload the feat is a pointless exercise.

Shot myself in the foot? ❌

I just know what I’m talking about and would never have the arrogance to wade into a debate dictating the facts without being clued up. 👇

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's only hard to swallow if you have the preconceived notion that it would be easy for her. Otherwise, as the PF describes, what she accomplished was difficult, even for a White Phoenix of the Crown. She didn't sense Sublime when it took over Magneto in the prior storyline. Sublime had existed since the Earth first begat life. It also imbued itself with Phoenix powers with the injection. Sublime was a tough customer and a very imaginative nemesis for Grant Morrison to pen. Either way, extracting Sublime telekinetically is what the "surgery" and "disinfection" were. That much is obvious. And the secondary source confirms this.

Yet again illustrating your ignorance. 😱

The Phoenix Consciousness knew of Sublime and the threat he posed. That is the very reason it began manifesting within Jean again after all of this time.

The Phoenix Consciousness took the reins and spoke to Charles through Jean (New X-men 128) and visualised the destruction Xorneto would later cause towards the end of the run.

It was just Jean herself who got distracted by her life as a human, (e.g her love for Scott) that made her neglect her Phoenix duties.

That’s why the Consciousness tells her in New X-men after the disinfection, “you lost concentration…became emotionally engaged” “heart got stuck”

That resulted in her getting killed and therefore causing the HCT reality. It was her fault.

However a Phoenix’s time in reality is a learning experience, the Consciousness left her to make her mistakes but then guided her to rectify the situation.

You’re right when you say the disinfection and surgery were referring to the removal of Sublime from reality. However despite it being referenced in one of the scans you posted, your interpretation fails to take into account the fact that Jean went on to telekinetically amputate the HCT future, therefore wounding the universe.

She was then instructed to heal this gaping wound by growing a new future to replace the one she had cut away. She was directed to the hospital to treat the patient.

She goes into the crystal empty handed, but working together with the Consciousness, Jean materialised reality in the palm of her hand. The very nature of a Phoenix which has been established throughout the Phoenix mythology explains why she could be doing something as Phoenix and yet her Jean persona isn’t entirely aware of what’s going on. It’s no mark against her, because it’s the nature of the Phoenix entity. It’s her power set. She is a part of the Force and as such it shares her physical form. Its just like Forge. His power sometimes acts independently of his conscious mind meaning he can invent or put together inventions and not have a clue how he did so. However the results are still feats of Forge as that’s just the nature of his power. It wasn’t achieved by a separate party.