Thanos with IG vs White Crown Phoenix

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Except for the fact that you're completely skipping a part and ignoring the fact that when they're referring to her telekinetic control of all of those atoms, something materialises in her hand that we're later told is the universe.

Following on from that point, Jeans bio is updated to say that she can telekinetically manipulate universal scale structures at an atomic level.

Universe in the hand

telekinetic control of all of those atoms

Not complicated at all. 🙂

Once again:

1) Jean pulls Sublime out of Beast with her telekinesis.
2) Jean asks, "Surgery complete?"
3) Jean travels to the White Hot Room. The Phoenix Force tells her that the "disinfection is complete," and she hands Sublime over to it to seal his influence away.
4) The other Phoenixes gather around her and tell her, "Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds in training, not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown." PAST TENSE.

5) THEN the universe begins to manifest itself in her hands.
5a) She asks what's in her hands.
5b) The Phoenix Force and the Phoenixes let her know what it is.
6) She realizes she needs to nudge Scott in order for such a future to not repeat itself in Earth-616 and the phoenix manifests itself on top of the universe in her hands. Which is all symbolic.

Very, very simple. AND... confirmed by the handbook entry dedicated to Here Comes Tomorrow.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I think that Scott prevents that future from repeating itself in Earth-616. I think that's what the handbook entry means.

And what future would that be?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What she initially held is Sublime. That much cannot be disputed. This green globular mass in her hands was pulled straight out og Hank McCoy, whom Sublime hid inside since Sublime wanted control over the Phoenix's powers when he compelled Hank to inject himself:

Ah yes, I can agree to that. At that vary time and point She held Sublime.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Fact is, you're making the same double-standard assumption that others are making. Jean is holding the actual universe, but the phoenix flaring up inside it is only a representation of her power on it, because if everything that was in her hands was an actuality, the phoenix flaring up would have wreaked havoc on it. At the very least, we know that Franklin was actually holding an entire universe inside his ball which he created on his own and Uatu was holding his Earth-311 universe in his hands and retains it in his heart. Neither of which Phoenix did. So Franklin > Uatu > Phoenix. If that's cool to you, that's your cup of tea. Frankly, I find it preposterous. You can affect universal change without using telekinetic control over all atoms. It's obvious to me that she uses her telekinesis to extract Sublime, as depicted on-panel and confirmed in secondary sources. That's how she used her telekinesis to affect universal change, as confirmed here. It's that simple:

To be honest, the Phoenix effect isn’t even within the universe structure. If you pay close attention to the scan the Phoenix effect takes place right outside what is supposed to be the representation, of the materialized universe.

And maybe you are right, if Phoenix is atomically controlling Universe. And the phoenix effect happens to flare up at that vary moment. Then surely colossal damage would take place, I mean every time the Jean has manifested the Phoenix Effect, she always damages herself and others.

But really your misguided interpretation does vary little than provide, back and forth bickering over nothing. The comic states, she is holding a universal structure, and does not recite damage due to Phoenix effect. Good job, you just wasted your time to express your frustrated observation. Its no different then Mr. Master and his constant “Alternate Omega Kid” told her to let it die.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not if you were following the exchange between Galen and LK 😬

Originally posted by LordKaos
how did it fail, he failed in asking for something that doesn't exists so i sarcastically asked for the same

Originally posted by id369
And what future would that be?

Originally posted by id369
Ah yes, I can agree to that. At that vary time and point She held Sublime.

To be honest, the Phoenix effect isn’t even within the universe structure. If you pay close attention to the scan the Phoenix effect takes place right outside what is supposed to be the representation, of the materialized universe.

Originally posted by id369
And maybe you are right, if Phoenix is atomically controlling Universe. And the phoenix effect happens to flare up at that vary moment. Then surely colossal damage would take place, I mean every time the Jean has manifested the Phoenix Effect, she always damages herself and others.

But really your misguided interpretation does vary little than provide, back and forth bickering over nothing. The comic states, she is holding the a universal structure, and does not recite damage due to Phoenix effect. Good job, you just wasted your time to express your frustrated observation. Its no different then Mr. Master and his constant “Alternate Omega Kid” told her to let it die.

For your interpretation to work: 1) a Phoenix must speak in past tense of an event that hasn't yet happened; 2) Jean summons all atoms from a universe (a heretofore unseen level of power by a wide margin) AND she doesn't even know what she's doing; and 3) the handbook entry dedicated to the story is wrong. Doesn't fly. My interpretation has no inconsistencies, no gaps in logic and is confirmed by secondary sources. Use Ockham's Razor to figure out which one is logically more sound.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Uh no. His comment is clearly referring to something she had already accomplished. Her telekinetic extraction of Sublime, which itself was referred to as the "surgery" and "disinfection." After praising her and comforting her about that feat, something starts manifesting itself in her hands. Why is he speaking in the past tense to something that hasn't occurred yet? She doesn't even know what's in her hands until they tell her. If she was telekinetically summoning all the atoms of the universe, how'd she not know what was materializing in her hands?

Once again:

[b]1) Jean pulls Sublime out of Beast with her telekinesis.
2) Jean asks, "Surgery complete?"
3) Jean travels to the White Hot Room. The Phoenix Force tells her that the "disinfection is complete," and she hands Sublime over to it to seal his influence away.
4) The other Phoenixes gather around her and tell her, "Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds in training, not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown." PAST TENSE.

5) THEN the universe begins to manifest itself in her hands.
5a) She asks what's in her hands.
5b) The Phoenix Force and the Phoenixes let her know what it is.
6) She realizes she needs to nudge Scott in order for such a future to not repeat itself in Earth-616 and the phoenix manifests itself on top of the universe in her hands. Which is all symbolic.

Very, very simple. AND... confirmed by her handbook entry. [/B]

1 to 3 is fine although you neglect to mention her telekinetically amputating the future.

Point 4 onwards neglects to mention the exchange between Jean and the Force where she is asked to treat the patient in the hospital.

In the hospital Jean is told "Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds in training, not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown." After that, a universe appears in her hands.

It is quite clear that the universes appearred after some kind of telekinetic application of power from Jean. The updated bio of Jean supports this.

You talk of why the Phoenix is talking in the as if its something Jeans already achieved. Its not, its talking as if its something Jean is in the process of achieving.

Jean uses the Forces power to accomplish her feats, Jean could have been trying from the top panel, hence it saying its not as easy as it sounds(otherwise why would it say that? ) It then beckons her to hurry up"Quick Now" before the universe finally appears in her hand.

My interpretation explaisn everything.

Yours has glaring holes im afraid. For example it doesnt explain Jeans updated bio entry. 🙂

Originally posted by Priest
Meh, i don't like to read The Great Galans post because he is an idiot.
I do refute my earlier comment after reading what he said.

I missed ur sarcasm, and thought u were serious in actually debating with a fool.

😆 it's cool

Originally posted by LordKaos
and after he does that, can you post a scan of any of them pwning her? 🙄

Here's the PF getting mounted, I mean butt raped, by the Goblyn Force.

And after defeating galactus and absorbing the Phoenix Force, the Goblyn Force went on to get pwned by the 5th host of the Celestials, dreamt into being by Eternity.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It makes more sense that the universe is a representation of the universe, since everyone agrees that the phoenix flare is a representation of her power and not an actual phoenix sitting on top of the universe.

Nope. Its her well known power signature appearing as it usually does when she applies her power.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
For your interpretation to work: 1) a Phoenix must speak in past tense of an event that hasn't yet happened; 2) Jean summons all atoms from a universe (a heretofore unseen level of power by a wide margin) AND she doesn't even know what she's doing; and 3) the handbook entry dedicated to the story is wrong. Doesn't fly. My interpretation has no inconsistencies, no gaps in logic and is confirmed by secondary sources. Use Ockham's Razor to figure out which one is logically more sound.

1) Not past tense. Its referring to something she's in the process of doing which is why it urges her to hurry up as the globules of energy come together in her hand to form what we're told is the universe

2) If you read New X-men or you were familiar with Phoenix mythology you'd know that when a host does high level stuff or gets agitated or out of control, the Phoenix Force takes over and even speaks to her:

That would explain why Jean is questioning whats going, whilst at the same time its telling her that what shes doing isnt easy and she needs to hurry up.

3) The handbook entry mentions all of the significant plot points. It doenst contradict my interpretation at all, whilst your own interpretation ignores the parts of the panel which dont quite coincide with your opinion. Furthemore, extracting a bacterial colony from Beast isnt going to be hard for the Phoenix to do. Extracting a bacterial coclony from Beast doesnt involve the total telekinetic control of an atomic structure on a universal scale.

Your interpretation is horribly flawed.🙁

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
1 to 3 is fine although you neglect to mention her telekinetically amputating the future.

Point 4 onwards neglects to mention the exchange between Jean and the Force where she is asked to treat the patient in the hospital.

In the hospital Jean is told "Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds in training, not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown." After that, a universe appears in her hands.

It is quite clear that the universes appearred after some kind of telekinetic application of power from Jean. The updated bio of Jean supports this.

You talk of why the Phoenix is talking in the as if its something Jeans already achieved. Its not, its talking as if its something Jean is in the process of achieving.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jean uses the Forces power to accomplish her feats, Jean could have been trying from the top panel, hence it saying its not as easy as it sounds(otherwise why would it say that? ) It then beckons her to hurry up"Quick Now" before the universe finally appears in her hand.

My interpretation explaisn everything.

Yours has glaring holes im afraid. For example it doesnt explain Jeans updated bio entry. 🙂

Jean only nudges Scott to prevent the dystopic future from occurring. And Jean's act of extracting Sublime telekinetically was what disinfected the entire future reality. What happened in the White Hot Room was symbolic. Neither entry mentions her telekinetically pulling every atom of a universe into the White Hot Room. The act of telekinesis refers to her extracting Sublime out of Beast. Made inimitably clear since the other Phoenix refers to the telekinesis feat in the past tense and Jean has no idea what's manifesting itself in her hands. If the other Phoenix was talking to Jean herself and commenting on the difficulty of telekinetically summoning all the atoms of the universe, that suggests that Jean is doing something. If you're now cornered into concluding that the Phoenix Force was summoning the atoms, then why is the the other Phoenix addressing Jean?

Think about it.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Here's the PF getting mounted, I mean butt raped, by the Goblyn Force.

And after defeating galactus and absorbing the Phoenix Force, the Goblyn Force went on to get pwned by the 5th host of the Celestials, dreamt into being by Eternity.

Did they get dreamt into being by Eternity in that universe or are you making assumptions about that universes based on a theory that isnt even necessarily true for 616? 😕

On top of that, this is the White Crown Phoenix who is Jean 616.

When judging Galactus in battle do we look at that fact that his alternate reality counterpart got eaten by Zombies? 😖hifty:

Your post is irrelevant. Get with it silly. 😉

Hey WhiteWitchKing, can you resize the pictures next time? A picture of that size totally distorts my view of this thread.

pinch

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Here's the PF getting mounted, I mean butt raped, by the Goblyn Force.

And after defeating galactus and absorbing the Phoenix Force, the Goblyn Force went on to get pwned by the 5th host of the Celestials, dreamt into being by Eternity.

the Phoenix Force of that reality was absorbed not killed/hurt or anything of the sort, the Goblin force beat galactus but absorbed the Phoenix sounds to me like it needed it's power. Being pawned is way different than being contained and that's all the celestials managed to do and it still broke out. That scan is an ambiguous account given by the watcher, not some detailed account of how battles between the Goblin Force and any of the other three mentioned.

Nor has it anything to do with what I requested, which was one of the abstracts pawning Phoenix nice try though

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No. The comment makes it clear he is referring to something that already occurred, i.e. the telekinetic extraction of Sublime from Beast, into the White Hot Room. He is not referring to something that is progressively occurring. She doesn't even know what's manifesting in her hands! How could he be comforting her about the difficulty of telekinetically summoning the universe's atoms when she doesn't even know what's going on?! How hard is it to miss that?!
Your interpretation takes leaps and completely ignores two separate Handbook entries on Here Comes Tomorrow:

All handled in my last post.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Jean only nudges Scott to prevent the dystopic future from occurring. And Jean's act of extracting Sublime telekinetically was what disinfected the entire future reality. What happened in the White Hot Room was symbolic. Neither entry mentions her telekinetically pulling every atom of a universe into the White Hot Room. The act of telekinesis refers to her extracting Sublime out of Beast. Made inimitably clear since the other Phoenix refers to the telekinesis feat in the past tense and Jean has no idea what's manifesting itself in her hands. If the other Phoenix was talking to Jean herself and commenting on the difficulty of telekinetically summoning all the atoms of the universe, that suggests that Jean is doing something. If you're now cornered into concluding that the Phoenix Force was summoning the atoms, then why is the the other Phoenix addressing Jean?

Think about it.

There is the Phoenix Consciousness and there is Jean. The Consciousness speaks to her and when things get too much it takes over, leaving her in some cases unaware of whats going on.

I can post instances of the same thing happening to Rachel if you wish? 😕

Jean extracted Sublime.

Jean amputated that future because it was badly infected.

Jean was urged to heal the wound she dealt the universe (because of the amputation) in the hospital. She was urged to go to the hospital to treat the universe.

In the hospital, the Consciousness speaks to Jean and tells that control of all those atoms isnt as easy as it looks suggesting Jean is doing something telekinetically with atoms) It also tells her to hurry up confirming that point.

Next panel shows Jean questioning what shes done after shes done it. Readers of the series and those familiar with the mythology would know that Jean is often taken over by the Force and it speaks to her. It tells her its a universe.

🙂

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
A future similar to what happens in Earth-15104. She nudges Scott so he doesn't give up on the Xavier Institute, which starts a tumble towards the events that create the dystopic future seen in Earth-15104.

Ah is that a fact? In other words, HCT was never adverted, only adverted another possible future that closely resembles reality 15104. Exactly what is 616 Jean doing in Earth 15104 and how is it that she recalls the events of HCT in Phoenix Endsong?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

That distinction really doesn't fly with the plain presentation of the story or the handbook entry's description of what occurs as symbolic.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

No. It's a very simple interpretation. Whether she holds the universe in her hands is moot. She never telekinetically summoned it atom by atom. The Phoenix comments on her telekinetic extraction of Sublime, which itself was the "surgery" and "disinfection" she accomplished. It makes more sense that the universe is a representation of the universe, since everyone agrees that the phoenix flare is a representation of her power and not an actual phoenix sitting on top of the universe.

Actually it’s a moot point, to discern the fact that the primary resource states she is holding a universe, and it takes total atomic control to do so. What becomes a bigger moot point, is that the surgery and disinfection took place right before she manifested the universe, when she held the entire future in the palm of her hand. Really how long, can one keep up with these types of circular logic ?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

For your interpretation to work: 1) a Phoenix must speak in past tense of an event that hasn't yet happened; 2) Jean summons all atoms from a universe (a heretofore unseen level of power by a wide margin) AND she doesn't even know what she's doing; and 3) the handbook entry dedicated to the story is wrong. Doesn't fly. My interpretation has no inconsistencies, no gaps in logic and is confirmed by secondary sources. Use Ockham's Razor to figure out which one is logically more sound.

Well lets look at the facts.
The comic states page 20 panel 1. With the amputation of the entire future, disinfection was a successes.

page 21, manifestation of the universe and the claim of total TK control is established.

What you are attempting to do is argue schematics and stack up comic book vs. bio. A bio does not dictate if a comic book has made a mistake. It works the other way around, a comic book dictates, if the bio dictation is incorrect. Arguing she does not know what she does not know what she is doing does not fly, that’s the reason why the Phoenix Conscious is their to guide her.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All handled in my last post.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
There is the Phoenix Consciousness and there is Jean. The Consciousness speaks to her and when things get too much it takes over, leaving her in some cases unaware of whats going on.

I can post instances of the same thing happening to Rachel if you wish? 😕

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jean extracted Sublime.

Jean amputated that future because it was badly infected.

Jean was urged to heal the wound she dealt the universe (because of the amputation) in the hospital. She was urged to go to the hospital to treat the universe.

In the hospital, the Consciousness speaks to Jean and tells that control of all those atoms isnt as easy as it looks suggesting Jean is doing something telekinetically with atoms) It also tells her to hurry up confirming that point.

Next panel shows Jean questioning what shes done after shes done it. Readers of the series and those familiar with the mythology would know that Jean is often taken over by the Force and it speaks to her. It tells her its a universe.

🙂

The only reason you're disputing this obvious description of Here Comes Tomorrow (as confirmed by secondary sources), is because this scene is ripe for misinterpretation and an opportunity to elevate your favorite character. But that neither excuses the attenuative leaps in logic you make nor validates the excuses you constantly profer as critics peel away the inconsistencies.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

The other Phoenix would not be addressing Jean then directly then. He is obviously speaking to her because he recognizes her status as a White Phoenix of the Crown. If the Phoenix Force does all the heavy lifting when things get difficult, why would this other Phoenix address Jean? It's obvious he's commenting on her telekinetic extraction of Sublime from Beast.
She went to the White Hot Room to drop off Sublime. She also goes there to understand and perform her most important task. Saving Earth-616 from repeating the future depicted in Earth-15104. She does this by nudging Scott. None of that requires her to summon the universe atom by atom telekinetically. Which is primarily evident because she doesn't even understand what's manifesting in her hands at that point. Very, very simple. No attenuations. No leaps of logic. No ignoring the other Phoenix's past tense words as addressed to Jean herself. No ignoring her lack of comprehension as to what's going on.

Originally posted by id369
Ah is that a fact? In other words, HCT was never adverted, only adverted another possible future that closely resembles reality 15104. Exactly what is 616 Jean doing in Earth 15104 and how is it that she recalls the events of HCT in Phoenix Endsong?

Originally posted by id369
The symbolisim of watering with her hearts blood is not the Phoenix Effect. That is just God awful stupid. The symbolism is forcing his love one to reside with a bitter rival, in order to prevent a tragic future.

Originally posted by id369
Actually it’s a moot point, to discern the fact that the primary resource states she is holding a universe, and it takes total atomic control to do so. What becomes a bigger moot point, is that the surgery and disinfection took place right before she manifested the universe, when she held the entire future in the palm of her hand. Really how long, can one keep up with these types of circular logic ?

Originally posted by id369
Well lets look at the facts.
The comic states page 20 panel 1. With the amputation of the entire future, disinfection was a successes.

page 21, manifestation of the universe and the claim of total TK control is established.

Originally posted by id369
What you are attempting to do is argue schematics and stack up comic book vs. bio. A bio does not dictate if a comic book has made a mistake. It works the other way around, a comic book dictates, if the bio dictation is incorrect. Arguing she does not know what she does not know what she is doing does not fly, that’s the reason why the Phoenix Conscious is their to guide her.

Lastly... why would the handbook entry dedicated to Here Comes Tomorrow agree with my simpler, less attenuated interpretation and contradict yours? Doesn't take a genius to reason why.

Originally posted by id369
Grant Morison states, HCT is adverted not a possible future that resembles 15104. And it does not really matter, if all was needed was to “Nudge” Scoot to advert the future. It does not take away the fact that Jean performed the stated claims.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Which makes use of attenuations and ignores contradictions. Stick with it if that's your personal opinion. It doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Pot calling the kettle black my friend.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The other Phoenix would not be addressing Jean then directly then. He is obviously speaking to her because he recognizes her status as a White Phoenix of the Crown. If the Phoenix Force does all the heavy lifting when things get difficult, why would this other Phoenix address Jean? It's obvious he's commenting on her telekinetic extraction of Sublime from Beast.

The other Phoenix? Oh silly silly. I see what you've done. You thought one of the other hosts was talking to Jean? ❌

Only the Force is. If you analysed the scene carefully you'd see that when Jean is talking, her speech bubble has an arrow coming from her direction. The black bubbles floating freely in the air is the Phoenix Consciousness that speaks to all hosts.

Sorry ODG.
I hope my point makes more sense now. 🙁

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
She went to the White Hot Room to drop off Sublime. She also goes there to understand and perform her most important task. Saving Earth-616 from repeating the future depicted in Earth-15104. She does this by nudging Scott. None of that requires her to summon the universe atom by atom telekinetically. Which is primarily evident because she doesn't even understand what's manifesting in her hands at that point. Very, very simple. No attenuations. No leaps of logic. No ignoring the other Phoenix's past tense words as addressed to Jean herself. No ignoring her lack of comprehension as to what's going on.

Nope. The White Hot Room is contained within the crystal.

Once again if you'd analysed the scene carefully, you'd see that when Jean shifts dimensions after extracting Sublime, during her exchange with the Consciousness, a bird like claw is seen advancing towards Jean and it takes Sublime away.

Jean is then urged to go to the hospital, she looks back as Sublime is taken away in the opposite direction.

Jean once in the hospital begins to materialise the universe after having been told to treat it in the WHR.

As shes doing so she is told by the Consciousness that controlling all of those atoms isnt as easy as it looks. Suggesting shes doing something telekinetically with atoms.

It then urges her to hurry(" Quick Now"😉 Which is further confirmation.

Jean asks what it is she has done and the Consciousness tells her its a universe.

Jeans latest bio confirms she can control atomic structures on a universal scale.

Your interpretation ignores that bio. Mine coincides with them all.

Fans of the Phoenix and readers of New X-men(which apparently didnt include you) knew that the Consciousness at times takes over Jean and talks to her.

Your interpretation is full of misinterpretations. All of these errors could have been avoided if instead of wading into an argument on a topic you knew so little about, you instead took a step back did all of the relevant background reading and then approached the debate.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The only reason you're disputing this obvious description of Here Comes Tomorrow (as confirmed by secondary sources), is because this scene is ripe for misinterpretation and an opportunity to elevate your favorite character. But that neither excuses the attenuative leaps in logic you make nor validates the excuses you constantly profer as critics peel away the inconsistencies.

Its not the obvious. Im just here pointing out the flaws in your interpretation and countering all of your points.

Youre being selective about the scenes which youre addressing and all together it just doesnt add up. I applaud you for your efforts, but commiserations on your failure. 😬

Originally posted by Galan007
Thanos wins, even an incomplete IG had multiversal effects.... and phoenix has only been proven as universal at best

Debate over...