Thanos with IG vs White Crown Phoenix

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You're still trying to take one piece of that stream of consciousness and interpret it in the most literal sense possible. You cherry-pick sentences of handbooks that do not directly contradict your assertion as "support" for your pretenses. But you fail to notice that you are AGAIN, interpreting those words in the most literal sense possible. In doing so, you haven't offered a separate piece of evidence that supports your previous proposition. You're only saying and doing the same thing wrong, twice over.

And what you’re doing is refusing to acknowledge the above possibilities I’ve listed. They are very possible as the scene when isolated from all that comes before and after it is open to interpretation. However when you do acknowledge what comes before and after (something you’re failing to do) you see that your interpretation doesn’t add up. Putting the scene in context with rest of the book should steer your interpretation in the right direction, however you’re so keen on arguing me down you’re neglecting to do what we all should be doing as standard i.e. looking at the bigger picture as opposed to solely focusing on one scene, or in your case, one sentence.

Jean said she amputated the future. The other characters said she cut away the future and needed to replace it. HCT disappears out of the picture. The handbook states the same thing. My interpretation is that Jean cut away the future.

Yours is Jean extracted Sublime, however when later stating she had to amputate the future, she was met with the response, “disinfection successful” therefore I’ll make the assumption that by extracting Sublime Jean got rid of that future timeline. 👇

Just how the hell does that happen mate? Lol

Please tell us how removing Sublime from Beasts body makes 150 years of timeline disappear? 😖hifty:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What we both recognize is that neither of our interpretations are directly contradicted on-panel or by handbook entries. What you don't wish to recognize is that our interpretation involves far less attenuations of logic. I've listed them before, I'll list them again:

My interpretation is not contradicted in the handbooks at all. When all handbook entries are looked at together my interpretation is presented. When your interpretation is compared to what are in the handbooks discrepancies are highlighted.

Jean says she amputated the future. The Consciousness said she had to grow a new future. Quentin said she cut away the old future and had to replace it. The handbook says she severed the future from the multiverse.

What do you say in response?

Extracting Sublime = [b]coordinated disinfection = surgery = amputate the future = Phoenix disinfection successful.[/B]

Yeah mate, that explains everything. 😬

[

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
b]1) You don't apply telekinesis on a future, that very notion is plainly counterintuitive. You're beginning to understand that by suggesting that we don't know what power she is using. Great. Instead of rehabilitating your position, you're retreating and leaving it more muddled and vague, thereby preventing focused criticism of it. A smart move for those who don't see how evasive such logic is, but it doesn't lend support to your assertions.

2) As you used to say, there is no such precedent in Marvel for such a thing happening. This was naturally before you started retreating from such a proposition when it got turned right back onto your primary assertion. Now, you turn a whole 180 degrees and suggest, "Someone has got to be the first to pull off a feat..." Such self-serving logic does not represent a separate supportive proposition of your conclusion. It's self-concluding and thus self-serving.

3) It is still painfully obvious that such a feat is never even depicted in a single panel. It's terribly hard covering up this gaping hole in your argumentations. Now you're looking at a single panel of Jean travelling away, labelling it as "the HCT reality fading away" and hoping that will aver further criticism. Absolutely not. Within that single panel, Jean herself has already stated, "... I had to amputate the future." This is past-tense speak. Forgive me for patronizing you, but you don't speak of an action in the past tense and as being complete, if it's going on all around you in the very same panel. All she is doing in this panel is travelling away with Sublime:

[/B]

2) There is a precedent for timelines being destroyed in Marvel. Vangaard travelled around doing so: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/vangaard.htm. The Forever Crystal is also capable of doing so: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/timekeepers.htm. I speculated that it was through telekinesis that Phoenix removed the HCT timeline, however whatever power she used, she did it, as Marvel recognizes.

3) If I had the aim of destroying a glass and I threw it out of a skyscraper, I could say I’d achieved my objective even as the glass was still falling.Jean said she had amputated the future and as she says that the HCT reality fades out of the picture. If you don’t think that’s a clear indication, then take that up with Marc Silvestri. She stated it; the scene CAN be interpreted that way, other characters comments indicate she did indeed do what she said and the handbook goes ahead and states she did it. Who are you to say different. What evidence have you got to show she didn’t? Character comments contradict your opinion and the handbooks ignore it. Why are you still going?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I told you not to put words into my mouth. You can try to twist my words into something they're not. But that doesn't change my interpretation into an argument you find easier to poke holes in. I explained this before in a previous post. Get a clue and do not do this again.

Don’t put words in your mouth? Ok, why don’t you tell us exactly what you meant? If removing Sublime from Beast was the action Jean was referring to when she said “I had to amputate the future”, then why don’t you explain to us as per your interpretation, just what happened to the 150 years of timeline that disappeared? The timeline the Consciousness told Jean she had to replace by growing a better future, the timeline Quentin stated Jean had just cut away and now needed to grow a new one in replacement. The timeline the handbook states had been severed from the multiverse BEFORE Jean altered events to make sure it never came into existence.

Best of luck with that. 👆

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
I'm still wondering how 1 universal feat by WPotC puts her above the IG?

Thor covering the planet in storms would be a global feat. Someone mind controlling every person on the planet would be a global feat. Its a feat that spans the boundaries of the globe.

In comparison someone manipulating the atomic structure of the entire planet within the palm of their hands would be a cosmic feat.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Don’t put words in your mouth? Ok, why don’t you tell us exactly what you meant? If removing Sublime from Beast was the action Jean was referring to when she said “I had to amputate the future”, then why don’t you explain to us as per your interpretation, just what happened to the 150 years of timeline that disappeared? The timeline the Consciousness told Jean she had to replace by growing a better future, the timeline Quentin stated Jean had just cut away and now needed to grow a new one in replacement. The timeline the handbook states had been severed from the multiverse [B]BEFORE Jean altered events to make sure it never came into existence.

Best of luck with that. 👆 [/B]

I'll be the last person to accuse HCT of being well-written or logical.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Mr Master, in that respect thread there are a number of scans which state the Phoenix Force to be the energies of creation, state it to be the power behind the stars which in turn provide the universe with energy and the sum and substance of all life, the life force of reality and the creator of stars. Those points are stated throughout that respect thread and those scans span two decades, with references to Phoenixes role made as recently as last year in both Uncanny X-men and Phoenix Warsong. With that in mind, I have no need to get caught up in a debate with you, a debate you’re trying to bait me into having.

You do not dictate canon for Marvel, Marvel does. As I’ve shown, my point is stated in many a marvel publication. My point has also been stated more recently and consistently than your single story arc from 2005. If you don’t like it, then wait for a retcon. Until then you are in no position to state that Marvel comics clearly stating my point are wrong. There are many origin theories out there involving different characters, just accept that Phoenix has on panel also been given that role and leave it at that.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Not one single incident in it that depicts Phoenix creating The Big Bang,
or sparking it,
or being the energies of creation.

Heck, there's not a single incident where Phoenix even creates an Alternate Universe,
but you wanna have her creating the Marvel Universe ... I disgaree.

************

Show us just ONE showing that depicts Phoenix creating The Big Bang,
or creating the "Spark" that ignites the Big Bang,
or having any involvement whatsoever during The Big Bang.

On Panel action only please! ..
like with the Alien Entity and the others verified by Marvel.com

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

The Phoenix Force itself, responds, "Phoenix disinfection successful." What is it responding to? It is responding to Jean's comment that she "had to amputate the future." This is also only two pages after Jean asks, "Surgery complete?" Which in turn followed her proclamation that she was performing a "coordinated disinfection." Which was extracting Sublime from Beast. The connection between all those terms is clear.

Extracting Sublime = coordinated disinfection = surgery = amputate the future = Phoenix disinfection successful.

You're still trying to take one piece of that stream of consciousness and interpret it in the most literal sense possible. You cherry-pick sentences of handbooks that do not directly contradict your assertion as "support" for your pretenses. But you fail to notice that you are AGAIN, interpreting those words in the most literal sense possible. In doing so, you haven't offered a separate piece of evidence that supports your previous proposition. You're only saying and doing the same thing wrong, twice over.

What we both recognize is that neither of our interpretations are directly contradicted on-panel or by handbook entries. What you don't wish to recognize is that our interpretation involves far less attenuations of logic. I've listed them before, I'll list them again:

1) You don't apply telekinesis on a future, that very notion is plainly counterintuitive. You're beginning to understand that by suggesting that we don't know what power she is using. Great. Instead of rehabilitating your position, you're retreating and leaving it more muddled and vague, thereby preventing focused criticism of it. A smart move for those who don't see how evasive such logic is, but it doesn't lend support to your assertions.

2) As you used to say, there is no such precedent in Marvel for such a thing happening. This was naturally before you started retreating from such a proposition when it got turned right back onto your primary assertion. Now, you turn a whole 180 degrees and suggest, "Someone has got to be the first to pull off a feat..." Such self-serving logic does not represent a separate supportive proposition of your conclusion. It's self-concluding and thus self-serving.

3) It is still painfully obvious that such a feat is never even depicted in a single panel. It's terribly hard covering up this gaping hole in your argumentations. Now you're looking at a single panel of Jean travelling away, labelling it as "the HCT reality fading away" and hoping that will aver further criticism. Absolutely not. Within that single panel, Jean herself has already stated, "... I had to amputate the future." This is past-tense speak. Forgive me for patronizing you, but you don't speak of an action in the past tense and as being complete, if it's going on all around you in the very same panel. All she is doing in this panel is travelling away with Sublime:

I told you not to put words into my mouth. You can try to twist my words into something they're not. But that doesn't change my interpretation into an argument you find easier to poke holes in. I explained this before in a previous post. Get a clue and do not do this again.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Enough with the hyperbole.

If you ask me to show you proof of my claims,
I can do it in a snap, actually, I already have presented it,
you saw it, we all saw it, yet,
for some reason you're in denial though. 🙁

The Beyonder claimed to have power a million times that of the multiverse and you accepted that as the truth despite him not displaying that level of power on panel ever. Greater feats than the cosmics? ✅

A million times greater than all of the cosmics? ❌

Did you accept his statement as fact? ✅

Phoenix's role is verified by a variety or cosmic characters who would know. The Phoenix is stated in her bio to be the life force of reality. You are in no position to tell anyone that those scans are wrong, when Marvel hasn't said so themselves.

The role has been given to many characters. Just accept that its ALSO been given to Phoenix according to many an on panel account.

That will be all. 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

The Force is responding to Jeans comment regarding her amputating the future, however given that in real world terms the words are not interchangeable, the fact that it is confirmed on panel and in a bio that Jean literally amputated the HCT future

and the fact that you cannot eliminate 150 years of timeline by removing bacteria,
you are wrong to equate the terms disinfection and amputate.

It is just as possible that the Force was referring to the fact that Jean had previously extracted Sublime on panel.

How was Jean involved?

She forced Scott to make that decision, cool,
but the power of removing the Timeline laid in Scott's decision,
just like it was Scott's decision that created HCT to begin with.

OneDumbGo is right.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Or the Forces comments ("disinfection successful"😉 could refer to the fact that Jeans disinfection mission was a success because her actions neutralised Sublime. To disinfect is to destroy or remove harmful bacteria from something. By cutting away the future, Jean was removing the threat of Sublime; therefore by its basic definition Jean was successfully disinfecting reality. However what prevents you from saying the same in reverse is the fact that by pulling out bacteria from Sublime, she is not amputating the future. She is not removing any diseased limb of reality via that action. HCT was literally cut off as stated by Quentin Quire.

Phoenix extracted Sublime, and that's what she shifted into the WHR with,
it appears, this action amputated the alternate future of Reality 15104:

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future ... of ... Reality - 15104"

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually, Jean didn't remove 150 years of anything either,
it was Scott's decision that removed the Timeline.

How was Jean involved?

She forced Scott to make that decision, cool,
but the power of removing the Timeline laid in Scott's decision,
just like it was Scott's decision that created HCT to begin with.

OneDumbGo is right.

HCT (reality 15104) was not cut away, HCT's future was:

Phoenix extracted Sublime, and that's what she shifted into the WHR with,
it appears, this action amputated the alternate future of Reality 15104:

"In ONE Future, Phoenix [B]severed the Alternate Future ... of ... Reality - 15104" [/B]

Nope Mr Master.

Jean stated she amputated the future BEFORE she altered the events.

Jean was stated to have cut away the future BEFORE she altered events.

In fact the reason she was requested to grow a new future was to replace the one she had just cut away.

Furthermore, the bio entry you've presented states quite clearly that Jean severed the future AND THEN nudged Cyclops to prevent that future from coming about.

That will be all 🙂

Go on. Think of a way to spin the handbook entry. 😉

We know its coming. 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

The Beyonder claimed to have power a million times that of the multiverse
and you accepted that as the truth
despite him not displaying that level of power on panel ever.
Greater feats than the cosmics?

A million times greater than all of the cosmics?

Did you accept his statement as fact?

The Beyonder never claimed that, it was Jim Shooter himself that claimed that:

Nice try.

You say Beyonder never displayed that kind of power, lol.

Beyonder made the Living Tribunal literally Tremble in fear.
Beyonder created an infinity that when compared to all of Marvel,
it was like comparing an ocean to a drop of water. 😂

And, Beyonder actually did create this infinity On Panel,
unlike Phoenix who hasn't created even a Galaxy, LOL!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Phoenix's role is verified by a variety or cosmic characters who would know. The Phoenix is stated in her bio to be the life force of reality.
You are in no position to tell anyone that those scans are wrong,
when Marvel hasn't said so themselves.

Phoenix is a manifestation of the prime universal force of life, NOT of Reality.
The Phoenix derives from psyches of living beings,
it's the life-cycle of living beings that sustains the Force in it's natural state as you know.

Reality (as in Time/Space the rest and other self-sustained powers) do NOT need Phoenix.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

The role has been given to many characters.
Just accept that its ALSO been given to Phoenix
according to many an on panel account.

1. The original Universe (Infinity Being) collapses into a Void (Cosmic Egg)
it allows one life to survive (Galan) it merges with Galan in order to create a New Universe,
and so, a New Universe is created via the Big Bang, this is the Marvel Universe.

2. Sise-Neg, travels back in time & space,
as he drifts back he absorbs all the magical energy through all history,
when he reaches the Void (pre-Big Bang point) he has become "God"
he decides to re-create the Big Bang, and the same Marvel Universe is re-created.

3. Entropy evidently is Eternity's natural state recycling.
Entropy manipulates Genis into helping him end the Marvel Universe,
Creation returns to the Void,
from there,
Entropy explodes in the form of the Big Bang to re-create the Marvel Universe.

4. Thanos/THOTI, absorbs all reality, reality becomes a Void,
and it's the end of the Marvel Universe,
Thanos, Big Bang style, creates Reality, the Marvel Universe anew.

5. The Alien Entity stood in the void before the Big Bang,
the Alien Entity created the "Spark" that ignites creation with a thought,
The Alien Entity personally sparked the Big Bang with his own hands,
The Alien Entity indeed literally harnessed the energies of creation,
The Alien Entity (using Reed's mind as a guide) created the Marvel Universe and all its history.

.................................................................

These five, and ONLY five incidents, (concerning the beginning/creation of Marvel)
have all been depicted/illustrated On Panel,
literally happening, I have them all, let me know.

Sorry friend, but you can't say the same for Phoenix. 🙁

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Nope Mr Master.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Jean stated she amputated the future BEFORE she altered the events.

Jean was stated to have cut away the future BEFORE she altered events.

In fact the reason she was requested to grow a new future
was to replace the one she had just cut away.

What I said was, she didn't remove the Timeline (reality 15104) demise from existence,
that was Scott's decision.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Furthermore, the bio entry you've presented states quite clearly that Jean severed the future AND THEN nudged Cyclops to prevent that future from coming about.

What I was disputing was who altered/replaced the future of Reality 15104?

That was Scott's decision, it had nothing to do with Jean and atoms, that's all.

Master, I agree with all you're points but I dont believe Beyonder to be as powerful as you claim..I still dont consider him above being multiversal and I dont consider him a rival to LT.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yep, GS.

Uhh, who said she didn't amputate the future, before mind raping Scott?

What I said was, she didn't remove the Timeline (reality 15104) demise from existence,
that was Scott's decision.

Dude, I know that, it was I who posted it.
I think you misunderstood me.

What I was disputing was who altered/replaced the future of Reality 15104?

That was Scott's decision, it had nothing to do with Jean and atoms, that's all.

Jean removed the timeline. Then she ensured it could never re-emerge by altering the event that spawned it, Scotts decision.

No more needs to be said.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jean removed the timeline. Then she ensured it could never re-emerge by altering the event that spawned it, Scotts decision.

No more needs to be said.

Well as far as this match is concerned, when has she ever defeated a powerful multiversal being like Thanos w/IG. I dont think she has even put down eternity.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Time is just an interval separating two points on this continuum… a duration. The timeline is just the universe in various states from one point in time to another. Phoenix can apply her power through the timestream as we’ve seen on panel, so a possible explanation for how telekinesis could be used is that Jean dispatched the universe from one point in time, (the end of HCT) to another(Scotts reaction to Emma, the point of divergence). That’s a possible way TK can be used to remove a future from the timeline.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

However as I’ve stated throughout this thread,
it’s not certain that TK was used,
however that is irrelevant. She stated she did something,
other characters stated she did it, the on panel outcome indicates she did it and then the handbook said she did it.

In light of that the onus is not on me to explain to you what power she used to perform an officially recognized feat when it’s not even stated on panel what power she used.

You're not even sure of what really happened.

What happened to "breaking down the universe to it's component parts?" 😬

Don't worry,
during my HCT research I realized
every single HCT review on the net complained about the same thing,
the story is so self-contradicting that honestly, everyone I read from hated it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Jean removed the timeline.
Then she ensured it could never re-emerge
by altering the event that spawned it, Scotts decision.

How the heck do you control time and space with atoms?

That's bull, I don't buy that.

Time and Space (abstract concepts) are not made up of atoms. 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope Mr Master.

Jean stated she amputated the future BEFORE she altered the events.

Jean was stated to have cut away the future BEFORE she altered events.

You're missing the point entirely.

Only in the absolute worst sci-fi (think Phil of the Future) do people from the future actually refer to their present as "the future." Give it ten seconds of though. If you travel to the year 3018, nobody you meet there will refer to 3018 as the future.

When Jean says she "amputates the future," why would you think she's talking about 150 years in the past?