Might have to do with the fact, that she is coping with idea of being brought back to life 150 years after her death.
That's why she asks "Is this the future"?, and the Phoenix Conscious responds "This is now".
After all she is still some what incomplete, fragments of her self are still missing leaving her in a state of confusion.
Originally posted by The Great GalenMaster, I agree with all you're points
Originally posted by The Great Galenbut I dont believe Beyonder to be as powerful as you claim..
I'm not the one making up statements, I'm quoting Jim Shooter.
Jim Shooter was the creator/writer of Secret Wars and the Beyonder,
Jim was also the Editor in-Chief of Marvel at the time.
Editor in-Chief is the top dog of Marvel decisions.
Also, Beyonder demonstrated his power:
The Marvel Reality was an infinite Multiverse.
Beyonder's created a Reality that was like an Ocean,
while the infinite Marvel Multiverse was like a drop of water.
On Panel it happened.
Originally posted by The Great GalenI still dont consider him above being multiversal
Originally posted by The Great Galenand I dont consider him a rival to LT.
....................................................................
When Uatu gathered the Cosmic Hierarchy (the LT included)
the In-Betweener says about Mephisto,
"Surely this is his day of last resorts ... he is desperate ... AS ARE WE"
I believe "WE" included the LT ✅ (who is there)
................................................................................................
Who's the ONLY being to ever make the LT tremble in fear?
Beyonder, that's who.
The Living Tribunal and the hierarchy literally,
were quaking in their pants at the thought of what Beyonder would do,
if Eternity failed,
when Eternity actually mustered some courage to attempt an attack:
"The Mighty of the MULTIVERSE (the LT included) TREMBLE"
................................................................................................
Originally posted by id369Might have to do with the fact,
that she is coping with idea of being brought back to life 150 years after her death.That's why she asks "Is this the future"?,
and the Phoenix Conscious responds "This is now".After all she is still some what incomplete,
fragments of her self are still missing leaving her in a state of confusion.
Jean was resurrected in Endsong 150 years prior,
so she couldn't have been "coping with the idea of being brought back to life."
In fact, Jean merged with the Force at the end of Endsong,
how she ended up in the Phoenix Egg and separated from Force in HCT,
is well, seems like a continuity contradiction.
Perhaps this is why HCT is ignored by the Phoenix Force's 2005 bio,
and Jean Grey's 2008 bio,
cause it makes no sense when we look at official, canon pre & post HCT arcs.
Originally posted by Mr Master
I disagree.Jean was resurrected in Endsong 150 years prior,
so she couldn't have been "coping with the idea of being brought back to life."In fact, Jean merged with the Force at the end of Endsong,
how she ended up in the Phoenix Egg and separated from Force in HCT,
is well, seems like a continuity contradiction.Perhaps this is why HCT is ignored by the Phoenix Force's 2005 bio,
and Jean Grey's 2008 bio,
cause it makes no sense when we look at official, canon pre & post HCT arcs.
Remember after New X-Men 154, history has now taken a different turn. Events have now bin played out differently.
It also helps that Phoenix retained some of Jean memories prior to the mergence. Apparently she forgot about killing all those lovable insect race thingy.
Originally posted by Mr Master
👆You mean as powerful as Jim Shooter claims.
I'm not the one making up statements, I'm quoting Jim Shooter.
Jim Shooter was the creator/writer of Secret Wars and the Beyonder,
Jim was also the Editor in-Chief of Marvel at the time.Editor in-Chief is the top dog of Marvel decisions.
Also, Beyonder demonstrated his power:
The Marvel Reality was an infinite Multiverse.
Beyonder's created a Reality that was like an Ocean,
while the infinite Marvel Multiverse was like a drop of water.On Panel it happened.
This tells me you're not well informed concerning the Beyonder.
....................................................................
When Uatu gathered the Cosmic Hierarchy (the LT included)
the In-Betweener says about Mephisto,
"Surely this is his day of last resorts ... [B]he is desperate ... AS ARE WE
"I believe "WE" included the LT ✅ (who is there)
................................................................................................
Who's the ONLY being to ever make the LT tremble in fear?
Beyonder, that's who.
The Living Tribunal and the hierarchy literally,
were quaking in their pants at the thought of what Beyonder would do,
if Eternity failed,
when Eternity actually mustered some courage to attempt an attack:"The Mighty of the MULTIVERSE (the LT included) TREMBLE"
................................................................................................ [/B]
But in fairness it could be a bluff, whos to say it wasnt simply narrative hyperbole and that the the cosmic aspects misunderstood the situation.
Originally posted by id369Remember after New X-Men 154, history has now taken a different turn.
Events have now bin played out differently.
After Jean was killed by Xorn and the Force was shattered, (NX-Men 150)
the next story in line, is Endsong, the first page of Endsong #1,
displays the Force's last memory, which was, getting shattered by Xorn,
and Jean is still in her grave (dead) in the first issue of Endsong.
Jean is resurrected by the Force, and later in issue #5 merges with the Force.
Next time we Jean, she's still merged to the Force in the What if with Vulcan.
150 years down the line,
Jean is incubating with the Phoenix Egg, separated from Force,
Jean is extracted from the Egg, and later becomes the White Crown Phoenix,
performs some task, and all is well.
So who is this White Crown Phoenix? Cause that's not merged Jean.
616 Jean merged with the Force 150 prior in Endsong.
I'm not really asking you these questions id, cause there aren't any rational answers,
I'm just asking for the sake of asking, just to show us HCT doesn't make sense.
Originally posted by id369It also helps that Phoenix retained some of Jean memories prior to the mergence.
Apparently she forgot about killing all those lovable insect race thingy.
........................................................................................
{this is from Endsong)
"Litttle bug people ... a built-in obsolescence"
Hmm ... Seems right, but the poster forgot something,
that Jean clearly points out the number of genetic obsolescences"
she killed,
namely,
"Billions and Billions"
........................................................................................
(this is from the SAME arc: Endsong)
A Shiar Commander says:
"Phoenix ... comes to purify the Universe ....burning away what doesn't work,
My (family) died with FIVE BILLION others when Phoenix ate D'Bary's Star,
if you want to tell me They were a Genetic Obsolescence ...
that Phoenix was designed to correct? ..."
........................................................................................
Although who knows,
it could be referring to HCT,
which would spin us back into a continuity contradiction.
Originally posted by The Great GalenBut in fairness it could be a bluff
Originally posted by The Great Galenwhos to say it wasnt simply narrative hyperbole
On top of his, it seems you're simply ignoring Beyonder's feats,
that give those narrations substance.
Originally posted by The Great Galenand that the the cosmic aspects misunderstood the situation.
Misunderstood what situation?
Beyonder had already erased the Concept of Death
across the entire infinite Multiverse, they knew it, they knew Beyonder was the real deal,
so, they didn't mis-understand anything imo.
In fact, Uatu, on his knees, begged the Molecule Man to help,
and the hierarchy, like desperate children, were pleading to Beyonder.
Seriously, have you read Secret Wars II and it's tie-ins?
I can gladly send you the issues.
Originally posted by Mr Master
{this is from Endsong)"Litttle bug people ... a built-in obsolescence"
Hmm ... Seems right, but the poster forgot something,
"
that Jean clearly points out the number of genetic obsolescences"
she killed,
namely,
"[b]Billions and Billions
[/B]
I don't think she's refering to the number she killed in that particular instance. She's kind of refering to her role as the Phoenix to burn away what doesn't work. She (Jean) is having a hard time dealing with what her job involves eg. Mass Murder like she did in the Dark Phoenix Saga and what Celeste did in Warsong. Jean is tormented by this fact...hence the this is hell etc.
Originally posted by Mr MasterAlthough who knows,
it could be referring to HCT,
which would spin us back into a continuity contradiction.
This instance is referring to the 5 Billion she killed in the Dark Phoenix Saga. She consumed a Sun and indirectly killed the inhabitants (5 Billion D'Bary) in the solar system. This prompted the Shiar, Kree and Skrulls to call for the death of the Phoenix Host.
In short I can't recall any HCT references outside that arc. It in itself is quite contained.
Originally posted by ExodusCloakI don't think she's refering to the number she killed in that particular instance. She's kind of refering to her role as the Phoenix to burn away what doesn't work. She (Jean) is having a hard time dealing with what her job involves eg. Mass Murder like she did in the Dark Phoenix Saga and what Celeste did in Warsong. Jean is tormented by this fact...hence the this is hell etc.
So of course, I agree with your post.
Originally posted by ExodusCloakThis instance is referring to the 5 Billion she killed in the Dark Phoenix Saga. She consumed a Sun and indirectly killed the inhabitants (5 Billion D'Bary) in the solar system. This prompted the Shiar, Kree and Skrulls to call for the death of the Phoenix Host.
In short I can't recall any HCT references outside that arc.
It in itself is quite contained.
Originally posted by Mr Master
The story never alludes to that being a possibility, so I disagree.The narrator is the Writer/creator, and the Editor in Chief of all Marvel.
On top of his, it seems you're simply ignoring Beyonder's feats,
that give those narrations substance.Yea well in that case,
let's just make an excuse for everything that takes place on panel then friend.Misunderstood what situation?
Beyonder had already [b]erased
the Concept of Death
across the entire infinite Multiverse, they knew it, they knew Beyonder was the real deal,
so, they didn't mis-understand anything imo.In fact, Uatu, on his knees, begged the Molecule Man to help,
and the hierarchy, like desperate children, were pleading to Beyonder.Seriously, have you read Secret Wars II and it's tie-ins?
I can gladly send you the issues. [/B]
It isnt about making a excuse for things that happen on panel, we just cant take leaps in judgment.Beyonders power is really subjective if you ask me, I think everyone has there own idea about how strong he is but there really isnt a definitive conclusion. It might be implied that he is this great"Godly"power but by that same token a lot of his feats could be considered narrative hyperbole. We didnt actually see him pwning the cosmic hierachy so why assume its possible, just because it was implied by characters who could have easily overestimated his power or not have a full handle on the situation. I respect your opinion but I just dont see Beyonder being the beast most people make him out to be.
Originally posted by The Great GalenIt isnt about making a excuse for things that happen on panel,
we just cant take leaps in judgment.
Originally posted by The Great GalenBeyonders power is really subjective if you ask me,
I think everyone has there own idea about how strong he is
but there really isnt a definitive conclusion.
In order for us to know how powerful any character from comics is,
we simply look at what they've done on panel, if it's supported in bios, even better.
That's it.
If you wanna see feats, just ask.
Originally posted by The Great GalenIt might be implied that he is this great "Godly" power
but by that same token a lot of his feats could be considered narrative hyperbole.
Beyonder collapsed entire UniverseS with thoughts,
could create a Cosmos with a wave of his hand,
erased Death, played with the timestream,
withstood a blast that would've obliterated several Billion entire UniverseS,
defeated the most powerful being in the Multiverse,
made the LT & the hierarchy tremble in fear,
creating from nothing a Multiverse ridiculous times larger than the infinite Marvel Multiverse.
To name a few off the top of my head, all done On Panel.
Enough with the "narrative hyperbole" line.
Originally posted by The Great GalenWe didnt actually see him pwning the cosmic hierachy
so why assume its possible just because it was implied by characters
How about, cause we SEE on panel the cosmic hierarchy shitting in their pants?
Did you miss this?
That's not any "narrative hyperbole" dogs, that literally happening in real time,
the cosmic hierarchy, (including the LT) were trembling in fear.
(pwnd)
If you're gonna ignore this, and the rest of Beyonder's on panel feats,
and what the Writer says about him on panel and interviews,
and what the Handbooks of the time say,
there's really no point in debating this subject.
Originally posted by The Great Galenjust because it was implied by characters
who could have easily overestimated his power
or not have a full handle on the situation.
Originally posted by The Great GalenI respect your opinion
but I just dont see Beyonder being the beast most people make him out to be.
You should read Secret Wars II +/tie-ins though before having an opinion, imo.
Originally posted by Mr Master👆
If you're gonna make a speculative unsupported reason to dismiss every Beyonder feat, I gotta call that making excuses.I don't think anyone should have their own opinion like a guessing game.
In order for us to know how powerful any character from comics is,
we simply look at what they've done on panel, if it's supported in bios, even better.That's it.
If you wanna see feats, just ask.
Again, if you wanna see feats, just ask,
but please stop making that claim, cause it's false.Beyonder collapsed entire UniverseS with thoughts,
could create a Cosmos with a wave of his hand,
erased Death, played with the timestream,
withstood a blast that would've obliterated several Billion entire UniverseS,
defeated the most powerful being in the Multiverse,
made the LT & the hierarchy tremble in fear,
creating from nothing a Multiverse ridiculous times larger than the infinite Marvel Multiverse.To name a few off the top of my head, [b]all done On Panel
.Enough with the "narrative hyperbole" line.
Not pwning the hierarchy?
How about, cause we SEE on panel the cosmic hierarchy shitting in their pants?
Did you miss this?
That's not any "narrative hyperbole" dogs, that literally happening in real time,
the cosmic hierarchy, (including the LT) were trembling in fear.(pwnd)
If you're gonna ignore this, and the rest of Beyonder's on panel feats,
and what the Writer says about him on panel and interviews,
and what the Handbooks of the time say,
there's really no point in debating this subject.dontgetit
That's cool friend, everyone has a right to an honest opinion.
You should read Secret Wars II +/tie-ins though before having an opinion, imo. [/B]
Originally posted by GalacticStorm1) You've pretty much just listed why using telekinesis on a future is ridiculous and nothing short of speculative with your response. Simply because you believe Jean stated she did it, she must have done it somehow. Phail. You have yet to prove the very first proposition you use. That Jean actually meant that she literally cut the future with her telekinesis. The stream of consciousness which ties the extraction of Sublime = coordinated disinfection = surgery = amputate the future = Phoenix disinfection successful is there on the pages. It is supported by the handbook entries. Prove that it is nothing more than purple prose.
1) Don’t apply telekinesis to a future? Time is just an interval separating two points on this continuum… a duration. The timeline is just the universe in various states from one point in time to another. Phoenix can apply her power through the timestream as we’ve seen on panel, so a possible explanation for how telekinesis could be used is that Jean dispatched the universe from one point in time, (the end of HCT) to another(Scotts reaction to Emma, the point of divergence). That’s a possible way TK can be used to remove a future from the timeline. However as I’ve stated throughout this thread, it’s not certain that TK was used, however that is irrelevant. She stated she did something, other characters stated she did it, the on panel outcome indicates she did it and then the handbook said she did it. In light of that the onus is not on me to explain to you what power she used to perform an officially recognized feat when it’s not even stated on panel what power she used. No one but Grant Morrison or an on panel re-tread can do that for you. Does that mean you can sit there and claim it’s a fact that she didn’t do it? ❌ Why? Because on panel its indicated she did it and Marvel have taken that as the official line in their handbooks.2) There is a precedent for timelines being destroyed in Marvel. Vangaard travelled around doing so: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/vangaard.htm. The Forever Crystal is also capable of doing so: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/timekeepers.htm. I speculated that it was through telekinesis that Phoenix removed the HCT timeline, however whatever power she used, she did it, as Marvel recognizes.
3) If I had the aim of destroying a glass and I threw it out of a skyscraper, I could say I’d achieved my objective even as the glass was still falling.Jean said she had amputated the future and as she says that the HCT reality fades out of the picture. If you don’t think that’s a clear indication, then take that up with Marc Silvestri. She stated it; the scene [B]CAN
be interpreted that way, other characters comments indicate she did indeed do what she said and the handbook goes ahead and states she did it. Who are you to say different. What evidence have you got to show she didn’t? Character comments contradict your opinion and the handbooks ignore it. Why are you still going? [/B]
2) I know there is precedence for timelines being destroyed. I'm referring to the fact that there is no precedent for telekinesis to be used on time or a timeline or a future. Don't twist my statements to avoid arguing the issue. You already conceded that there has been no precedent for it in prior posts. Your facetious ignorance doesn't change or rehabilitate that fact.
3) The scene CAN be interpreted that way. But it's yet another speculative attenuation that runs contrary to simple perception and orderinig of prose and art. I'm not saying that it is absolutely and ultimately clear your interpretation is contradicted. I'm just saying that it is laughable and it sucks compared to a simpler and plainer interpretation. You can't change that. I'm not going to prove a negative. You have to show that it is more likely than not, that Jean literally meant she used telekinesis to cut the future away. I already gave you several reasons why it is less likely and you can't equivocate around that. You merely rely on the suspension of disbelief, which as a debator in an argument, equates to self-serving logic, "It doesn't make sense to you and you have reasons why, but you can't prove that it is beyond the realm of possibility, so just accept it over your own, less attenuated interpretation." Yeah? No sale.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Don’t put words in your mouth? Ok, why don’t you tell us exactly what you meant? If removing Sublime from Beast was the action Jean was referring to when she said “I had to amputate the future”, then why don’t you explain to us as per your interpretation, just what happened to the 150 years of timeline that disappeared? The timeline the Consciousness told Jean she had to replace by growing a better future, the timeline Quentin stated Jean had just cut away and now needed to grow a new one in replacement. The timeline the handbook states had been severed from the multiverse [B]BEFORE Jean altered events to make sure it never came into existence.Best of luck with that. 👆 [/B]
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ When did you assume that amputation of the future = removing 150 years of the timeline? From her perspective, those 150 years were actually the past to her. Why would she refer to it as the future? Not just that, but you're essentially asserting that she never averted the 150 years of timeline until she nudged Scott. So why is she talking about amputating the future before she actually accomplishes it? You're chasing your tail so much that you're destroying your own interpretation. Read the handbook. Extracting Sublime affected the entire future reality:
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Oh I see. She's talking about the past in future tense. That makes as much sense as the Phoneix Force describing a progressively occuring manifestation in the past tense also. This would be consistent if it weren't so utterly wrong.Extracting Sublime and taking it to the Phoenix Force disinfected the entire future. She replaces a possible future (Earth-15104) for Earth-616 with her actions that nudge Scott's will to love and live:
Putting words into my mouth again. I answered your question. You don't like it, that's fine. Don't substitute my answer for your illogical one.
I did answer your questions. You're incorrectly ascribing 150 years of what would be the past to her, as the future you believe she amputated. As the comic clearly depicts and dialogue describes, the [b]disinfection
, surgery and amputation all involve the extraction of Sublime. She is dealing with and speaking about Sublime before, during and after her statements and the statement of the Phoenix Force.[/u]"[/b]
Originally posted by OneDumbG0How many times do I have to explain this? At this point, you're feigning ignorance of what I've already explained in order to concoct some nonsensical argument and then attribute it to me. Why? Just to simply act as if my interpretation has a gaping hole and yours is superior. Christ. Wasting space and expanding this thread by pulling these facetious manuevers doesn't inject your assertions with substance or infuse minw with contradictions. DON'T PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH. At this point, all you're doing now is willfully ignoring my asserted core proposition: You're cherry-picking a single piece of Jean's statement and selectively ignoring context of conversations and lack of support in order to justify you reading said statement in it's absolute most literally fantastical way possible. It's purple prose. Amputating the future is referring to the extraction of Sublime. As supported on-panel and the handbook and certainly not contradicted. Anywhere.
You put words into my mouth again. I've figured that saying as such, will stop you from doing so. Apparently not. So I'm going to ask nicely. Do not put words into my mouth. Extracting Sublime = [b]coordinated disinfection = surgery = amputating the future = Phoenix disinfection successful. I do not believe that 150 years of events that have already occurred = future. You do. Do not put words into my mouth. As KK has offered, purple prose does not amplify a feat of telekinesis that doesn't even occur on-panel.[/b]
You're doing it wrong.
