Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's because you don't know what you're on about half the time, but we all have flaws. I wasn't asking if they do in the sense of "Do they really?". Perception not your forte, I see.-AC
No, it's just posts do not have a tone of voice therefor I take what is said as what is said, unless there is something done to tell me otherwise.
Lord, EVERYONE who says it knows what it means. They know it is a word which simply adds an aire of politeness to a sentence.
Now, the fact is here, you say this:
"But saying please isn't what I would call good manners."
Ok, fine. But the issue is, no-one cares a toss what YOU call good manners. Manners are defined by society, not individuals, and in just about every society it is generally considerd a good thing that people are respectful and polite, and there are words that help make that clear in a sentence and in many cases distinguish it from an imperative.
If you ever form your own society, feel free to do away with all such words. I am sure you will think it very good and clever. But I think you will find that removing the terms of respect will pretty quickly remove the respect, and only then will you see what laudable things they are. You will also note that, language being a means of expression and politeness being something that is expressed, they inevitably evolve in any language, have meaning attached to them in any language, and so are important in any language. You'd be fighting base instincts to try and get rid of them.
Of course, that will most likely never happen, and in any case until then you are stuck with it in this society, and if you don't use polite terms, people will think you a rude person whatever your opinion on it is. And chances are, judging by your behaviour, they would be right.
Originally posted by lord xyz
I could reply to this and prove you wrong, but it's off-topic, and I don't want that. I think it's best we ignore this.
Hahhaha, too funny...
Originally posted by lord xyz
😂 Yes, but I don't see how saying Please means anything but "Now you must do it because I asked nicely". After all, is not just an excuse to seem polite and posh?
an, would you please, please...I beg you, please shut up? You are wrong.
Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
xyz, please shut up.See, it has many meanings.
ARGH...reverse time JOKE THIEF!!! Please don't do that.
Anyways, Dictionary.com says it has a definition as follows:
please  /pliz/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pleez] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation adverb, verb, pleased, pleas¡Eing.
¡Vadverb 1. (used as a polite addition to requests, commands, etc.) if you would be so obliging; kindly: Please come here. Will you please turn the radio off?
Ergo it has a definition.
Originally posted by Bardock42Please means kindly?
Hahhaha, too funny...an, would you please, please...I beg you, please shut up? You are wrong.
ARGH...reverse time JOKE THIEF!!! Please don't do that.
Anyways, Dictionary.com says it has a definition as follows:
please  /pliz/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pleez] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation adverb, verb, pleased, pleas¡Eing.
¡Vadverb 1. (used as a polite addition to requests, commands, etc.) if you would be so obliging; kindly: Please come here. Will you please turn the radio off?
Ergo it has a definition.
Originally posted by UshgarakEveryone who says it knows what it means? Everytime I ask someone to define please, they use please itself to define it. I don't think they do know its definition. Another thing, yes a lot of people diagree with me, yes it's a social thing, but what would you say if most people think political correctness is the correct term to use when describing people of a different origin? Who gives a shit if I am rude or not, who cares if people don't say please? Please is not needed, why say it? Because the only argument I've got for saying please is to show that one is polite.
Lord, EVERYONE who says it knows what it means. They know it is a word which simply adds an aire of politeness to a sentence.Now, the fact is here, you say this:
"But saying please isn't what I would call good manners."
Ok, fine. But the issue is, no-one cares a toss what YOU call good manners. Manners are defined by society, not individuals, and in just about every society it is generally considerd a good thing that people are respectful and polite, and there are words that help make that clear in a sentence and in many cases distinguish it from an imperative.
If you ever form your own society, feel free to do away with all such words. I am sure you will think it very good and clever. But I think you will find that removing the terms of respect will pretty quickly remove the respect, and only then will you see what laudable things they are. You will also note that, language being a means of expression and politeness being something that is expressed, they inevitably evolve in any language, have meaning attached to them in any language, and so are important in any language. You'd be fighting base instincts to try and get rid of them.
Of course, that will most likely never happen, and in any case until then you are stuck with it in this society, and if you don't use polite terms, people will think you a rude person whatever your opinion on it is. And chances are, judging by your behaviour, they would be right.
Politeness: Showing consideration for others (usually without knowing it), tact
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/polite
Now, would you deny that we are an evolved society so advanced that most of us wouldn't care about involuntary consideration? I mean really, do people need manners?
Originally posted by lord xyz
Everyone who says it knows what it means? Everytime I ask someone to define please, they use please itself to define it. I don't think they do know its definition. Another thing, yes a lot of people diagree with me, yes it's a social thing, but what would you say if most people think political correctness is the correct term to use when describing people of a different origin? Who gives a shit if I am rude or not, who cares if people don't say please? Please is not needed, why say it? Because the only argument I've got for saying please is to show that one is polite.Politeness: Showing consideration for others (usually without knowing it), tact
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/polite
Now, would you deny that we are an evolved society so advanced that most of us wouldn't care about involuntary consideration? I mean really, do people need manners?
It does not matter if they cannot give a dictionary definition. They know what it means, exactly as I outlined above, that it makes a sentence polite. So you are entirely wrong to say people do not know what it means. They do, and people use it correctly all the time. It's like the word 'happy'. Tough to define, but still easy to use right. You cannot say people do not know what it means just because a technical definition is awkward.
I certainly give a shit if you are rude or not. And a lot of people give a shit. Your argument is that politeness has no value. I entirely disagree, most people entirely disagree. Society in general disagrees, and so your position is a waste that will only bring harm to you. Like I say, you'd soon feel the loss if a way of expressing basic respect and politeness was not there. These things have value.
Political correctness is a set of rules that is imposed upon people on grounds that are often debated. Politeness is not. Politeness comes from society; it is not regulated. A direct comparison of the two is fatuous.
If you don't care about being rude, so be it. But that is nothing laudable- indeed, that would be a considerable criticism of you.
Incidentally, inserting your own additions into a quoted reference- in this case your dictionary definition given above- is a particularly silly thing to do. Altering references is the mark of desperation. Worst thing is, the final question- a question without much sense behind it- depends on the entirely made-up alteration you made.
Dearie me.
Originally posted by UshgarakIt does matter. If people don't know what shit means, but can use it in a sentence, is it okay for them to say it? IF people don't know what die means, but can use it in a sentence, should they?You say it's okay to say a word to make people happy. Isn't humouring someone the same thing?
It does not matter if they cannot give a dictionary definition. They know what it means, exactly as I outlined above, that it makes a sentence polite.
Originally posted by UshgarakBut happy isn't used constantly to make someone do something for you is it?
So you are entirely wrong to say people do not know what it means. They do, and people use it correctly all the time. It's like the word 'happy'. Tough to define, but still easy to use right. You cannot say people do not know what it means just because a technical definition is awkward.
Originally posted by UshgarakThat is not my argument, my argument is that please has no value and that forcing your children to do say it also is wrong.
I certainly give a shit if you are rude or not. And a lot of people give a shit. Your argument is that politeness has no value.
Originally posted by UshgarakIn some countries, society is against gays and abortion. Are they wrong?
I entirely disagree, most people entirely disagree. Society in general disagrees, and so your position is a waste that will only bring harm to you. Like I say, you'd soon feel the loss if a way of expressing basic respect and politeness was not there. These things have value.
Originally posted by UshgarakManners are a set of rules imposed upon people. Your parents tell you to use them, certain people shun you for not using them, and some people believe manners should be taught in schools and policed.
Political correctness is a set of rules that is imposed upon people on grounds that are often debated. Politeness is not. Politeness comes from society; it is not regulated. A direct comparison of the two is fatuous.
Originally posted by Ushgarak?
If you don't care about being rude, so be it. But that is nothing laudable- indeed, that would be a considerable criticism of you.
Originally posted by UshgarakIf you looked at all the definitions on that page, you would've seen the one I used.
Incidentally, inserting your own additions into a quoted reference- in this case your dictionary definition given above- is a particularly silly thing to do. Altering references is the mark of desperation. Worst thing is, the final question- a question without much sense behind it- depends on the entirely made-up alteration you made.Dearie me.
Re: Profanity and manners, just as annoying as political correctness.
Originally posted by lord xyz
Seriously. Does profanity give you less respect and make you a bad person? And does manners make you a good person? Does saying Please really make you well-mannered? Or is it just an excuse to say "I'm well mannered and better than you.". My friends don't care how mannered I am, and they like me a lot. People who do ask me to say Please n shit, actually don't. Something to think about. And profanity isn't really bad, I mean, ifanything it's quite humerous. 🙂
Profanities make you seem like some sort of uncultured hillbilly, while the good manners make people feel better, somehow. Don't ask me, I'm not a doctor.
Originally posted by lord xyz
It does matter. If people don't know what shit means, but can use it in a sentence, is it okay for them to say it? IF people don't know what die means, but can use it in a sentence, should they?You say it's okay to say a word to make people happy. Isn't humouring someone the same thing?
Why are you equating not knowing what a word means, and being unable to give an exact dictionary-level definition?
I know what please means, so does everybody except you. The fact that there's no concrete dictionary definition doesn't mean that the meaning is any less credible. It's sheer stupidity on your part.
Originally posted by lord xyz
But happy isn't used constantly to make someone do something for you is it?
Neither is please. Please isn't there to MAKE anybody do anything, that's exactly the point of the word, to make things seem like a request rather than a demand.
E.g: "Hand me that book." would be a demand. "Hand me that book, please." is a polite request. I'm not sure where you're falling in the gap on this.
Originally posted by lord xyz
That is not my argument, my argument is that please has no value and that forcing your children to do say it also is wrong.
Your argument is that people might as well not say it if everyone says it out of habit more than desire and respect, rendering the word all but meaningless (As in, not meaning it), which is fine, but to say the actual word lacks a meaning is just stupid.
The phrase "I love you", could be looked at in the same light. Everyone says it meaninglessly, or without appropriate meaning, but that doesn't mean the phrase lacks an actual meaning.
Originally posted by lord xyz
In some countries, society is against gays and abortion. Are they wrong?
Wrong to hold those beliefs, no. Wrong to impose them? Yes. That's an entirely different debate. Forcing other people to live their life differently in major ways, just because you don't agree with them, is wrong. Raising your children to say a certain word, in this case "Please", isn't anywhere near as bad, because it can -- infact -- benefit them, if only in unnoticeable ways.
Originally posted by lord xyz
Manners are a set of rules imposed upon people. Your parents tell you to use them, certain people shun you for not using them, and some people believe manners should be taught in schools and policed.
Precisely, some people shun you for not using them. If you go for a job interview and you lack manners, that may count against you not getting the job. Should it? Technically, probably not. Realistically, being someone who people can work pleasantly around is as important as being able to do the job. If you would willingly say "I don't care that I didn't get the job, manners are pointless.", then I wish you the best of luck in life, because it'll be a lot harder.
I'm not saying be overly polite to everybody, but things such as saying "Please" and "Thank you" are hardly troublesome. The fact that people say them on instinct a lot of the time probably could indicate that it's become "meaningless", but the fact that even instinctive manners still mean a lot to people is enough to show that the meaning remains.
Originally posted by lord xyz
If you looked at all the definitions on that page, you would've seen the one I used.
I only need one definition for your posts:
Bullshit.
Nothing you've said beyond your point of overuse makes a shred of sense, you're clearly either the bearer of ignorance or genuine lack of understanding. In both cases, talking to you is pointless, because you either see what we're saying and are ignoring it to be awkward, or you genuinely don't know what "Please" means, in which case I don't know how far beyond help you are.
-AC
Originally posted by LanaWell, it depends, please is an adverb, and as an adverb, it has a definition. And if people use it without even knowing its definition, then, there's no real point to it.
XYZ, can you come up with a perfect dictionary definition for every single word you use?
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriI'm not. I'm simply saying things like "Please means please" or "Please is used to make something polite" isn't what I call a definition, or what a word means. If you explained this to an alien or a child, all you would get is this facial expression: 🤨
Why are you equating not knowing what a word means, and being unable to give an exact dictionary-level definition?
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriAnd I'm not sure how sticking please on the end of a sentence makes it less demanding. Bardock says please means kindly. "Hand me that book kindly." is actually more demanding. And besides, a good, decent human being would've done it without the need of please.
I know what please means, so does everybody except you. The fact that there's no concrete dictionary definition doesn't mean that the meaning is any less credible. It's sheer stupidity on your part.Neither is please. Please isn't there to MAKE anybody do anything, that's exactly the point of the word, to make things seem like a request rather than a demand.
E.g: "Hand me that book." would be a demand. "Hand me that book, please." is a polite request. I'm not sure where you're falling in the gap on this.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriYou are constantly saying I'm stupid. Do you use this tactic in all your debates?
Your argument is that people might as well not say it if everyone says it out of habit more than desire and respect, rendering the word all but meaningless (As in, not meaning it), which is fine, but to say the actual word lacks a meaning is just stupid.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriWe're not talking about a phrase, we're talking about a word added to a sentence unintentionally. The two are very different.
The phrase "I love you", could be looked at in the same light. Everyone says it meaninglessly, or without appropriate meaning, but that doesn't mean the phrase lacks an actual meaning.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriThen you are also saying that it's okay to force a child to be christian of the entire society is christian aswell because it will help them fit in with their society. And why should people fit in with society? Bill Gates didn't.
Wrong to hold those beliefs, no. Wrong to impose them? Yes. That's an entirely different debate. Forcing other people to live their life differently in major ways, just because you don't agree with them, is wrong. Raising your children to say a certain word, in this case "Please", isn't anywhere near as bad, because it can -- infact -- benefit them, if only in unnoticeable ways.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriOkay, I'll agree that politeness is a must, but manners isn't necessarily politeness. Is it?
Precisely, some people shun you for not using them. If you go for a job interview and you lack manners, that may count against you not getting the job. Should it? Technically, probably not. Realistically, being someone who people can work pleasantly around is as important as being able to do the job. If you would willingly say "I don't care that I didn't get the job, manners are pointless.", then I wish you the best of luck in life, because it'll be a lot harder.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriThey don't mean a lot to people, young adults don't care if someone says please or not. Manners are meaningless.
I'm not saying be overly polite to everybody, but things such as saying "Please" and "Thank you" are hardly troublesome. The fact that people say them on instinct a lot of the time probably could indicate that it's become "meaningless", but the fact that even instinctive manners still mean a lot to people is enough to show that the meaning remains.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriRight back at ya.
I only need one definition for your posts:Bullshit.
Nothing you've said beyond your point of overuse makes a shred of sense, you're clearly either the bearer of ignorance or genuine lack of understanding. In both cases, talking to you is pointless, because you either see what we're saying and are ignoring it to be awkward, or you genuinely don't know what "Please" means, in which case I don't know how far beyond help you are.
-AC
Originally posted by lord xyz
Well, it depends, please is an adverb, and as an adverb, it has a definition. And if people use it without even knowing its definition, then, there's no real point to it.
What are you talking about? You make absolutely NO sense.
You are suggesting that if you cannot define it, there is no point using the word. Where on Earth did you get that retarded logic?
I know what the word means; Me not being able to precisely define it doesn't subtract from me knowing it's meaning, and saying it because of that. You don't need to be able to define a word to know what it means.
I know that saying "Please" is polite, which is why I do so, there is a point. Defining means nothing in this case.
Originally posted by lord xyz
I'm not. I'm simply saying things like "Please means please" or "Please is used to make something polite" isn't what I call a definition, or what a word means. If you explained this to an alien or a child, all you would get is this facial expression: 🤨
Why are you arguing about the definition? The definition is completely and utterly irrelevant. What matters is if you know what the word MEANS, not how the dictionary defines it.
Funnily enough, I feel like I am explaining it to an alien or a child, and you ARE going "Huh?", so maybe you're right. Then again, practicality prevails, because everybody here knows what it means, and you're the only one harping on the ridiculous notion that if a person cannot specifically define it, there is no point using it.
Originally posted by lord xyz
And I'm not sure how sticking please on the end of a sentence makes it less demanding. Bardock says please means kindly. "Hand me that book kindly." is actually more demanding. And besides, a good, decent human being would've done it without the need of please.
I know you're not sure, that's why we're here. Everyone is sure except for you.
You are taking what Bardock said far too literally. It doesn't MEAN "Kindly", it means you are asking kindly. This is precisely why I call you stupid, because you don't seem to be able to think.
Originally posted by lord xyz
You are constantly saying I'm stupid. Do you use this tactic in all your debates?
A) It's not a tactic.
B) Yes, I debate with a lot of stupid people.
Originally posted by lord xyz
We're not talking about a phrase, we're talking about a word added to a sentence unintentionally. The two are very different.
No, we're not. I know exactly what I'm talking about, so does everyone in this thread. You are the one who doesn't follow what's going on.
You are taking ill explanation far too literally and crossing over your debates ignorantly. "Please" is a word that is used to imply kindness in action. "Hand me the book, please." doesn't translate literally to "Kindly", it just implies kindness. You are trying to inherently tie the word to a dead meaning, and that's not the case.
Originally posted by lord xyz
Then you are also saying that it's okay to force a child to be christian of the entire society is christian aswell because it will help them fit in with their society. And why should people fit in with society? Bill Gates didn't.
I'm not saying that, am I? I specifically said it's wrong to force someone to change their lives in a major way just because you believe it. Raising a child on manners isn't that major. Try reading my posts.
Originally posted by lord xyz
Okay, I'll agree that politeness is a must, but manners isn't necessarily politeness. Is it?
Depends on if you mean what you say or not. If you say "Thank you" or "Please" and don't mean it, it simply means you aren't being sincere, it doesn't mean those words do not have any meaning.
Originally posted by lord xyz
They don't mean a lot to people, young adults don't care if someone says please or not. Manners are meaningless.
You're not able to speak for every young adult ever? What a stupid, generalised comment.
Originally posted by lord xyz
Right back at ya.
Mind your manners.
In closing, this is what it means in context:
Please:
–Used as a polite addition to requests, commands, etc. "If you would be so obliging."; Kindly (As in, in a kind manner): "Please come here.", "Will you please turn the radio off?".
It doesn't matter that when asked what "Please" means, people can't say the definition, people know that it means just that.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriAll this post is is you calling me stupid, saying I'm wrong for something I didn't even say, you ignoring everything I've said, you constantely saying I'm stupid and I'm stupid because eeveryone else disagrees with me and you pretty much repeating something I've already debunked. Now I just don't see the point in debating with you anymore, so I'm not.
What are you talking about? You make absolutely NO sense.You are suggesting that if you cannot define it, there is no point using the word. Where on Earth did you get that retarded logic?
I know what the word means; Me not being able to precisely define it doesn't subtract from me knowing it's meaning, and saying it because of that. You don't need to be able to define a word to know what it means.
I know that saying "Please" is polite, which is why I do so, there is a point. Defining means nothing in this case.
Why are you arguing about the definition? The definition is completely and utterly irrelevant. What matters is if you know what the word MEANS, not how the dictionary defines it.
Funnily enough, I feel like I am explaining it to an alien or a child, and you ARE going "Huh?", so maybe you're right. Then again, practicality prevails, because everybody here knows what it means, and you're the only one harping on the ridiculous notion that if a person cannot specifically define it, there is no point using it.
I know you're not sure, that's why we're here. Everyone is sure except for you.
You are taking what Bardock said far too literally. It doesn't MEAN "Kindly", it means you are asking kindly. This is precisely why I call you stupid, because you don't seem to be able to think.
A) It's not a tactic.
B) Yes, I debate with a lot of stupid people.
No, we're not. I know exactly what I'm talking about, so does everyone in this thread. You are the one who doesn't follow what's going on.
You are taking ill explanation far too literally and crossing over your debates ignorantly. "Please" is a word that is used to imply kindness in action. "Hand me the book, please." doesn't translate literally to "Kindly", it just implies kindness. You are trying to inherently tie the word to a dead meaning, and that's not the case.
I'm not saying that, am I? I specifically said it's wrong to force someone to change their lives in a major way just because you believe it. Raising a child on manners isn't that major. Try reading my posts.
Depends on if you mean what you say or not. If you say "Thank you" or "Please" and don't mean it, it simply means you aren't being sincere, it doesn't mean those words do not have any meaning.
You're not able to speak for every young adult ever? What a stupid, generalised comment.
Mind your manners.
In closing, this is what it means in context:
[b]Please:
–Used as a polite addition to requests, commands, etc. "If you would be so obliging."; Kindly (As in, in a kind manner): "Please come here.", "Will you please turn the radio off?".
It doesn't matter that when asked what "Please" means, people can't say the definition, people know that it means just that.
-AC [/B]
Originally posted by lord xyz
All this post is is you calling me stupid
No, but you are.
Originally posted by lord xyz
you constantely saying I'm stupid
True.
Originally posted by lord xyz
and I'm stupid because eeveryone else disagrees with me
No, you're wrong, that's why everybody disagrees with you. You're stupid because of your debate, and what you believe.
Originally posted by lord xyz
and you pretty much repeating
Pot/Kettle.
Originally posted by lord xyz
something I've already debunked.
You've debunked nothing. I've proven you wrong and so have others. Which is why you say this:
Originally posted by lord xyz
Now I just don't see the point in debating with you anymore, so I'm not.
Bye then.
-AC