Originally posted by LovelyOne
lol thanks *blush*I probably am wrong ya know..lookin too deep..I'm losing a bit of faith in my film studies skills ya know 🙁
Lovely, no offense in your profession and all. But, you don't have to be a film study student to see all this. I mean, you see all this because its what you see. Not what you want to see or make belief. You are not a crazy person fantasizing on what you want to happen in the 3rd with Jack/Liz. You're a smart girl with a brain of Einstein and a heart of gold. You cant loose your faith on this movie, if it we have gone this far, we can go even farther without falling off the edge. And if we made it this far is because we stick together and work together on our theories. We are not perfect, we do make mistakes, thats what makes us human not crazy ppl who makes up theories. If it doesnt turn out 100% percent as you said-as we all said, then don't let it ruin your dream. As I said, we are human, but we must stay straight and tall and on our ground. I know that ours and your theories are not wasted at all. I'm sure that it will all turn out as we want maybe not exactly but still the way we want. So don't loose faith.
I'm sorry, that was a looooong lecture there. I know I'm not your mother lol but I don't want you or anybody sad. I just want to help all I can. I'm no Einstein but at least I try to help 😂
Originally posted by LovelyOne
lol thanks *blush*I probably am wrong ya know..lookin too deep..I'm losing a bit of faith in my film studies skills ya know 🙁
Now lookie here, missy...
We may disagree on everything about Pirates of the Caribbean (except for maybe that we both think it's a great movie 😉 ), but I don't even want to hear you say that you're losing faith....at least in yourself.
Your posts are some of the most interesting to read and although we have huge gaps in interpretations of various scenes and the meaning of scenes, it doesn't mean that I doubt your sincerety or what you've learned in class.
So you know, chin up and all that. I don't want to encourage you too much, since you know, we have to still argue and stuff. 😄 But seriously, don't get so discouraged. I mean, look at me; I'm against a gazillion people on this site and you don't see me getting all bummed out. If I'm not bummed out then you can't get depressed, because then I'll have to be all angsty and stuff.
So yeah...W/E rule and yes, J/E rules as well. 😄
And yes, this is a horrible post, but I'm supposed to be at work but I couldn't just let this slide...
Surreal 44....Wow u know even though we've clashed in the past i must applaud u... that was sincere and it gained my respect (even though the post wasnt at all directed toward me)!! Good for you!! You've never lost ur faith in WILL/LIZ...and it's true when it's u against a forum i understand it gets hard...but i applaud u!! That was honorable of u!!
Just to clear a few things, I think a few people assumed I was talking about the actual heart of Davy Jones when I brought up the heart thing. That's not the case and I think that heart is very important to the story. I was referring to what someone though was symbolism. No offense to that person, but it was the picture of Jack with a "heart" in the background that I mean.
The dog....Your posts are interesting, no doubt, and I agree with most of them. And it's a very relevent and very telling parallel that you've drawn. The problem is that I don't think the writers really had that in mind. You can quote the whole "don't kill the dog" thing, but it's just the vibe I get from it. I think they included the dog in the beginning because it's a prominent scene from the ride and they thought it would be fun to run with it. The island scene, to me and probably just to me, is a break from the dark, deep story of the compass and heart and what each character means to the rest. There had to be some fun in there, real pirate fun and the closest thing we get next to the cannibal scene is the fight on the wheel. POTC needs spectacle and action in addition to unforgettable characters and great storylines. That's part of its charm. So most things I do think there is a big hidden meaning too, just not the dog.
you dont add anything into a story unless it is relevent to the plot..a movie is not a ride..what the dog does (if it was meaningless) shouldnt even be in there if it was just a meaningless add in from the ride.
dont you find this more than a mere coincidence:
The dog abandons his 2 friends to be taken under by a wave still clinging onto his old way of life
Jack does the same
The dog loses the keys, next time we see him he's no longer a coward, he's barking trying to protect his friends
Jack comes back and is no longer a "coward"..he blows the crap outta the kraken
The dog, then draws the enemy away from his friends whilst they escape
Jack does the same
We think the dog is dead
We think Jack is dead
we see the dog return at the end and he has a bone in his mouth
we know Jack is gonna come back..and coincidently his character had just crossed step 9 (seizing of the sword/reward after the supreme ordeal) The reward was Elizabeth.
dog gives up something and gets something better "give a dog a bone"
remember what Ted said the entire meaning of the series was.."a trade off for Jack"
IMO its far too much to be a coincidence
the dog's character arc is practically the same as Jack's it seems 😂
The dog hs its own plot line..which is a hilarious notion because its a DOG..since when does a dog have its own character plot in a
movie like this?
you have to remember that its only people in america who know the dog is part of the ride..the entire audience/critics of PotC haven't even been on that ride have they? So just seeing a dog like that in there is like "WTF?" which is a BIG NO NO in movies..eveything needs meaning.
P.S thanks everyone for making me feel better 🙂
PirateDiva and LovelyeOne: Well, I'm not always mean. I do care about other peoples' feelings, ya know? And I never post anything I don't mean. Well, not often, at any rate. Sometimes sarcasm isn't easy to pick up when you're on-line. 😄 😄
Oh, and willofthewisp, if you meant me by the comment about the heart, I wasn't actually using that er...moment or whatever it is in my post. I don't even know what that little scene is, although I've heard about it, and I didn't even bother to check it out because it sounds kind of silly (whoops, here I go, back to arguing. 😉 ).
I just meant that the thing that everyone wanted was the heart, and that the compass was more of a plot device to move the story forward rather than the central theme. 😄
I think that the theme of this movie was not er...J/E, but more about what price a person is willing to pay for someone/something they care deeply about.
I just can't think that even if there is romance in this movie that it was the one and only thing on the writers' minds. I hope not, and if it was, then I dread to see the third film because the whole reason I like the series is because it's all about adventure, with a touch of love tossed in for fun.
I agree to some extent surreal44. To me its all about final choices, The "thematic argument" raised (which is there according to Terry) is an argument because there are 2 themes going on with each character I think...and Liz's final choice in DMC is not to have a happy ending with Will Its to be with Jack...
everyone thinks that scene on the pearl is her final choice..well its not. Her final choice is to give up a happy ending with Will in order to return to Jack..She has the chance to go off and forget everything..but no..she wants to go and get Jack and risk her relationship with Will to do so...she's willing to pay the price, give up a happy ending with will in order to be with Jack again.
that is the final answer to that argument..and what I find interesting is how Ted and Terry said all the closure to the thematic argument/love triangle is there at the end of DMC..and if they were not going to do a movie 3 they say they feel as if they have closed the love triangle in a decent way
Will/Liz were no where near eachother emotionally at the end of that movie..what is established is how far appart they really have become by the end of it. She's physically with Will but emotionally its all about Jack. Jack is physically with his pearl but emotionally it's all about Elizabeth..Will is physically with Liz but emotionally he is clearly with his father.
I would say the closure to the love triangle is there too..and its not will/Liz...no where even near that...they actually fell apart in the story and remained apart by the end of it..because of what had previously happened to them both in the story. Will is now concentrated on his father. Elizabeth has become infatuaded with Jack..and vise versa.
There was no Wl//Liz resolution at all by the end of DMC..no understanding..they were left wide open and far apart
Far apart they may be, but Jack is even further apart from Liz than Will is at the moment.
Elizabeth chose to save Will...her decision to go back is not because she suddenly said, "OMG, I was crazy to do that because I LOVE Jack Sparrow!"
It was more of a "God, I suck so much, and Will is so angry...does he suspect that I left Jack behind?" and then the offer comes up to save Jack...and she sees a chance to right the wrong that she committed. That's how I read the scene.
From the first time I watched that movie, the idea of J/E hooking up never crossed my mind, because to me, she loves Will.
You can all look forward to what is turning out to be a mini-novel in its own right in a few days...If I were in school, I'd so use it as a thesis. Seriously. 😛 😛
not emotionaly my friend, he may be physically but not emotionally..Terry never said anything about physical endings..he emplied emotional development..according to the novel "Jack desired elizabeth all the more knowing that her heart was as dark as his own" you can clearly see in his last scene he is totally smitten with her and vise versa
Will's only emotional development in the move? Accepting his father in his life and him becoming top priority..
Towards the end. Elizabeth gives up will to be with Jack again. She's actually just crossed the "first threshold of adventure"..just after meeting the "supernatural helper" after previously "refusing the call to adventure" (jack wanting to be with her) and crossing the first threshold is the point in which the heros/heroine's story truly takes off...
each character did emotionally develop they didnt stay the same from start to finish..things changed. No character starts and ends emotionally the same as they were to start with..and thats the important thing here..
Where is each character emotionally heading throughout and at the end of DMC?..Its not Will/Liz getting emotionally closer..and its not Jack returning to be a pirate who cares for no one but himself.
according to T&T DMC is all we need for closure to the love triangle and closure for each character..DMC has set the base for where each is going to end in movie 3...they need not make a 3rd..that is only "tying up open plot ends" it seems
sorry triple post..but had DMC not made a definitive statement for each character before it closed and had it ended "open ended" where anything could happen with Liz/Jack/Will in movie 3 then people would not like it at all. Its an unfamiliar way to end a story..and humans fear the unknown. Its in our natures to do so. So ending it where it could go Will/Liz or Jack/Liz by movie 3 is a mistake I think. It has to have some form of closure..even if its only part 1 of a 2 part story It needs to make definitive statements, closing statements for each character. Otherwise by movie 3 we would be rather lost unless its continuing from what where Liz/Jack/Will seemed to be heading..so the closure is needed
...the ending certainly didn't feel like a Will/Liz ending to me, hence the fact there are so many hopeful Jack/Liz shippers about..they greatly out number the W/E shippers it seems because the majority saw a Jack/Liz thing (the 1 billion may suggest this too)..By the end of DMC for W/E? There was no closure there at all that is a mere plot end to be tied up..had they meant to be the couple in movie 3..then why is there no closure in movie 2 to this?...there was between Jack/Liz though a "sacred marriage" to be exact & Will/father had closure IMO
anyway I'm off to bed
No, she doesn't, Lovely. She is going for redemption...that is going to be the whole point of the third film.
I'm rather hoping for a moment of redemption for Davy Jones. I really like him, even if you know...he's a walking hybird of sea creatures.
As far as Will's emotional development, I think that it was sloppy editing and quite possibly, the wrong father figure that made it seem as if there is no real emotional development. More on that in my thesis...
Anyway, one of the moments that stuck out in my mind right after I left the theater when I first saw the film was this moment between Will and Elizabeth on the ship. He hands her the gun and it was this absolute moment of connection between them. They don't have to speak, they don't have to explain to each other...they already know what the other one is thinking.
That to me speaks volumes about their relationship.
Yes, Will caught Liz kissing Jack...would you not be angry, hurt, and confused by that? Would you not withdraw from that person, at least emotionally? And Will is not the kind of man to force a woman to speak when she isn't willing.
He loves Elizabeth enough to offer to go after Jack, and if Tia hadn't interrupted that moment (plot devicy!), then I think things would have been settled between Will and Liz right then.
Everything that is J/E in this movie is meant to cause tension and to make people believe that they are in love, when if you step away from the whole J/E love and look at it, underneath all that physical (and I do think it is almost purely physical) attraction, Will is always there in between them...
Remember, your ship ONLY works if Will basically vanishes or dies. There is no other way for J/E to work, because Will IS in fact the one that Elizabeth wants and desires. I think the reason we never see Elizabeth with the compass in her hand when Will shows up is because it would point to him, and they couldn't let that happen if they wanted the rest of the movie to be so tension-filled.
Well put, surreal. Very well stated. LovelyOne, you must think I just go back and forth on agreeing/disagreeing with you (hmm, much like Liz and Jack) but I just can't group the dog in with your other pieces of evidence which make so much sense. There are a lot of films out there with scenes that are in for no reason. They don't further the plot or develop character or offset a mood. They are pointless and should have been cut. Take for example a lot of the scenes re-added to the Star Wars movies for the special editions. Those scenes didn't really add anything except visual splendor.
"you dont add anything into a story unless it is relevent to the plot..a movie is not a ride..what the dog does (if it was meaningless) shouldnt even be in there if it was just a meaningless add in from the ride."
No, but if you base your film on a ride that has lots of memorable images, it's a courtesy to fans to include those in the film. Lots of parts of Tortuga and Liz being bounced into the air by a sheet in the first movie are from the ride.
"dont you find this more than a mere coincidence:
The dog abandons his 2 friends to be taken under by a wave still clinging onto his old way of life
Jack does the same"
- The dog has friends?
"The dog loses the keys, next time we see him he's no longer a coward, he's barking trying to protect his friends
Jack comes back and is no longer a "coward"..he blows the crap outta the kraken"
-- How is the dog a coward if he's guarding the keys from prisoners? These aren't friends, they are opposition. His duty is to keep them in there, so he's going to hold the keys. Jack doesn't consider it a duty to stop Davy Jones or Beckett.
"The dog, then draws the enemy away from his friends whilst they escape
Jack does the same"
-- Are you talking about when the cannibals chase the dog instead? If you are talking about that, Jack doesn't use himself as bait. He returns and helps fight and even though he probably planned on staying on the ship, he had that choice made for him.
"We think the dog is dead
We think Jack is dead
we see the dog return at the end and he has a bone in his mouth
we know Jack is gonna come back..and coincidently his character had just crossed step 9 (seizing of the sword/reward after the supreme ordeal) The reward was Elizabeth."
----- No one thinks Jack is dead.
"dog gives up something and gets something better "give a dog a bone"
-- it has yet to be seen if the dog gets something better because we know what happens to creatures the cannibals admire and treat honorably. They end up eating them anyway.
I'm not trying to be smug or arrogant. You've done me the favor of making me look at things in a different light and I agree with most of it and disagree with a little of it. I'm trying to do the same for you.
sorry Lovelyone but i actually agree with willo on this.
ts nothing really but a coincidence.
Not EVERYTHING in a movie is important...some things are just added for mere entertainment...or really just a time filler..ya know?
Wow i hitnk htis is the first time ive ever disagreed with any of you theories... 😖
OH man oh man ppl chill good Looooorrrrd!!
Damn!! Why cant we enjoy this movie?! Sure POTC is about adventure, excitement and humor, but its also about love!! Theres always a msg in these movies especially the T&T ones. You guys are turning into a simple movie that was inspired from a ride into a feud of symbols patterns and hero steps and blady blahs!
Sometimes even the simplest things are important. When you try to put it together with something and if it matches then points for us but if it doesnt make sense then its not important. Lets not over-annalyze and lets not under-annalyze(did that made sense there? oh well).
We have to stay neutral. We have to keep an open mind about this not close everything because its something thats just "simple".
I actually agree about the Dog/Jack Why???? Because believe it or not the Dog is one of the main charcters from the ride. If you guys have been to the ride, theres the Dog and the Dog has been there for years!!! Pintel and Ragetti are also original characters from the ride. Thats why they keep them around most of the scenes.
Since Jack is our main character, we cannot just ''kill'' him and not get the girl. What do we want for our main characters?? To be happy!! We want our dog to be happy and get the bone also!!
Im sure you guys will be surprised when we are gonna see the Dog alive-they fukin have to hes an original potc character from the ride!!
your right abouyt the over analyzing and under analyzing thing...but i still have to disagree (not argue...just disagree)
Sure the dog is a main character and of course (well at least i hop) he wont die..but does that really have to do naything with Jack...well i guess it could but would the writers go into such a detail as that? especially when people (not like us who look into every detail) who watch it wont really know that the dog and Jack are like one i guess you could say? no they wont. if they were as in love with the movie as A LOT of us here then they probably owuld but if they are just simple people who just watch it for entertainment the im not sure they would undertsnad it or think naything of it. and thats why i dont think htye would do that.
On secong thought I guess since writers are so creative they would wnat to do somehting like that for the people like us....ugh i duno im so confused ijust disagreed with you then i disagreed with myself...im having an off day...