The compass

Started by Chiki Mina8 pages

I think, and please dont take offense of this, is sit and organize your thoughts. Its confusing yes, but sometimes it makes it look confusing when it really isnt. T&T always have a way of surprising you especially the ending like Shrek. Never expected Fiona to be an ogre too and love Shrek. Same thing with DMC. We never expected for Jack to sacrifice for Liz and falling in love with her.

The clues are there under our noses, what can you expect form a T&T movie?? Just a Will/Liz ending and teach us to toy with their feelings especially our main character?!?!? WE dont want our character to be hurt. Choose whoever you want-Gibbs, Barbossa, Will as your favorite character. But our main is Jack weather who likes it or not. The 1st movie was no real hero. Now DMC has a hero who is now Jack. WE want our heroes to get the girls. WE dont want Jack to end up with hookers again and less become a coward and a sex addict again!!

Whats the use of writing all that story to change Jack into a heroic character, brave, and unselfish man then change it to his old ways again. Waste of time, waste of money theirs and ours, waste of ink, waste of paper, and waste of trees.

You can thave Jack change back again to his old ways...Its like puking and eating your vomit! Nasty example but its true. In ohter words, its fugged up and it wouldnt make any sense.

Again, we must not over-annalyze nor under-annalyze. We must keep our heads clear and most of all clear from all those rumors. Cant we do what we do best? Make inteligent theories in what we see in the movie not from other sources say?

I dont think shes going back for redemption surreal44 because she doesnt actually say sorry to Jack at all when she brings him out..she's not sorry for trading a mans life to save her on and Will's she does it quite bit to be honest..she's done it 3 times now and its only this time it has well and truly hit her.

.She is a pirate as T&T say..its her nature not to care about betrayals but this time it has visibly shaken her because she has Will there and is clearly feeling empty, She's lost the man she wants most in the world(whiich is what the compass shows) in order to save who she wanted to save most in the world(which is what the compass shows)..she's lost someone she's gaining feelings for(which is what DMC the entire movie shows)..its not like rejecting norrinton and rejecting Jack in movie 1 to save her skin..last time she wasnt getting feelings for Jack so she quite easily traded his life to save Will's and showed no remorse what so ever..this time? Everything is different.

willofthewisp..you just dont get these things I notice..Its not about what the dogs job is, stopping people having keys where I'm linking it with Jack... its about his nature and behavior.

People here dont seem to understand that you dont add a dog into movie and give it its own 15 minute plot line unless it is important. to something else in the story. They didnt even need to show you the dog running away and barking. Had the dog not been important this time T&T would have probably taken it out despite it being in the ride..

I know that I'm not looking too deeply here because my teacher actualy told me he noticed this too with the dog and Jack and congratulated me on spotting it and mentioning it to the class.

If I randomly added a dog and gave it its own 10 minute screen time and story into my screenplay I had to hand in for my coursework last year I would have got an F.

Also surreal44. Will is not actually getting Jack back because he wants to do it for Elizabeth. He plans to betray Jack to his death and steal his pearl to save his father. A clear development has happened to Will by the end of DMC..he's planning how he's going to save his father. He's not considering Elizabeth's emotions at all here. Had Tia not quietly mentioned to Will that he could use the pearl to save his dad, only moments before suggesting they bring Jack back...Will would have never stepped up and said "lets do it!". Will has a secret and rather selfish motive when the movie closes.

I don't think Will is one to forgive Jack too easily after seeing that kiss..or elizabeth..he is actually quite horrible and discriminative as a character when it comes to having a set hatred on someone.

Elizabeth doesn't know what Will is planning here so there is no deeper connection there when it comes to not having to say anything to each other. Will is lying to her and she's falling for it.

Originally posted by LovelyOne
Also surreal44. Will is not actually getting Jack back because he wants to do it for Elizabeth. He plans to betray Jack to his death and steal his pearl to save his father. A clear development has happened to Will by the end of DMC..he's planning how he's going to save his father. He's not considering Elizabeth's emotions at all here. Had Tia not quietly mentioned to Will that he could use the pearl to save his dad, only moments before suggesting they bring Jack back...Will would have never stepped up and said "lets do it!". Will has a secret and rather selfish motive when the movie closes.

I don't think Will is one to forgive Jack too easily after seeing that kiss..or elizabeth..he is actually quite horrible and discriminative as a character when it comes to having a set hatred on someone.

Elizabeth doesn't know what Will is planning here so there is no deeper connection there when it comes to not having to say anything to each other. Will is lying to her and she's falling for it.

i usually agree with you lovelyone, so this is a first, but i think it's possible for will to be doin that for liz. It's just my instincts telling me, AND beside the fact that i'm a carbon copy of his personality, it's what i would have done, but who knows....my feelings are telling my diff...at the moment....

thanks sailorleo..

yeah lol he's gonna murder the man he thinks she loves so he can get the pearl..is that really doing the right thing for her?

also peeps I wasnt getting aggressive eariler that was just my debating nature coming out again..sorry Willofthewisp if it seemed agressive.

Will wants the Pearl back, yes, so he can save his father, but look at the expression on his face right before he says he'd go get Jack back. He's angry, he looks over, he sees Elizabeth looking miserable and his face softens.

And IF Will is in fact going to be trading Jack...so what? Will has absolutely no reason to really like Jack at all. Maybe Jack had a brilliant plan to save him in the end, but for Will, Jack has toyed with him one time too many.

The third movie will show Will becoming more like a pirate, and becoming more like Jack. I think eventually the two men are going to repair their...I don't know if friendship is the right word...but I think that they will eventually become closer as the third movie wraps up.

except Jack actually came back for them all and died for them all...I think he was going to stay anyway..hence the lack of screaming down to the crew once Liz chained him there.

Jack has toyed with Will too much? Will has repeatedly screwed up Jack's plans in the past more so than Jack has screwed up his

Will was going to murder jack for no good reason in move one..he behaved like a racist who hates a certain type of person so much that they will treat them as things..as "it" and murder them because of his pure hatred towards them..He also considers how many people are going to die if he stabs the heart and the kraken is on the loose and he doesnt care..he still wants to stab it. Will is not a good man at all really..he's discriminative

the most honest REALLY is Jack and Norrington..Liz is the worst out of them all.

i want to know how Jones has the kragen under his control in the first place, i mean doesn't the kragen realize how powerful he is?

Dear God. It's hard to put into words how to shoot down Will, I wish upon a shooting star that I had a sniper rifle right now. Lol.

Joking.

And about the EDGE {E/J} being the only ship that would work if Will died, what the fck is that about. Honestly, and you say WE shoot down your EW {E/W}.

Elizabeth doesn't HAVE to stay with Will, it's her moral that KEEPS her TIED DOWN to him. She wouldn't have stayed with him if she hadn't gotten herself worked up with stuffing the pirate life. Think about it, Elizabeth has to do the same, think.

Just think about the future, and I don't think she'll much like the future William could offer her. Honestly, she DOESN'T want to be a prim and proper lady living in her drawing room and sitting for most of her day. She didn't want that life when she was LIVING IT, would she want it after she's HAD A TASTE OF PIRACY {And Jack}.

I don't think so, it's way to backtracking like. T&T wouldn't WASTE money on TWO sequals to put a DEVELOPING RELATIONSHIP INTO IT!

I believe that Elizabeth loves Jack as a man, and she loves Will too, sure, but as a son...a brother. Not as one of those 'shiver if he touches her' loves. Besides, Will is not that good for Elizabeth. She'd be the superior in the relationship, I don't think he could give her more that chaste kisses.

She needs a man, Will is too soft on her. Jack CHALLENGES HER, Will treates her like a porcline doll that would break any minute, he thinks she's a lady after she dresses, lies, kills, acts and IS A PIRATE!

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, IT'S ALL RIGHT INFRONT OF YOU. I'm all good for you EW fans just saying that they'll make up in AWE, but, honestly, don't delude yourself with DMC. DMC wasn't really the focus point of EW love. It really wasn't, a kiss or two fine...but no REAL connection.

And Will gave her a gun, wow. Amazing. No way. That's impossible.

He MUST have given her a telepathic signal of love, right? Yeah, sure...delude yourself.

Appologise if offended by my mean, bad bad {TRUE!} words.

Elizabeth's morals? Elizabeth seems to be having issues with her morals, in case you haven't noticed. She CHAINED JACK UP TO DIE...regardless of what that reason was.

That screams "IMMORAL" and possibly "CRAZY" to me. So yeah...I don't think her morals are keeping her with Will. It's just your way to justify what isn't there.

Also, this idea that she would have been prim and proper? Please. Maybe, if getting in trouble with the law hadn't happened, she would have been in society a bit more....

But she DIDN'T learn how to use a sword on her own. WILL taught her. He taught her...and I bet you that she was right beside him in that forge every free minute she had, learning about smithing, because THAT is how Elizabeth is.

She is a doer. She would never have sat back and let Will just work...she would want to be involved in the process.

Elizabeth is not superior to Will in anyway. Rather, she is superior in certain things, just as Will is superior to her in certain ways. They FIT together, they complement each other.

Think of it like...music. Sure, it's fine when you have two people who are on the same octave, singing the same notes, but it isn't...exciting. BUT, if you add another voice into the mix, on a different octave, singing different notes that compliments the others...suddenly there is interest.

And that, is where the interest in Will and Elizabeth is. They are the same, but not, and their differences compliment each other so that their relationship is beautiful.

If you watch all the W/E moments in DMC...the ways their eyes lock together, the slight touches, the gentle, unconscious way their hands meet and touch each other, their kiss, the hug...the way they protect each other, the way they do ANYTHING to get to each other or to save each other...

I watched the J/E kiss...and I watched the W/E kisses last night on youtube. Right after kissing Jack, Elizabeth gets this look on her face...I see no love there.

I tried. What I saw was anger, hatred...she leans in for another kiss because THAT is the selfish impulse that Jack was talking about. She wanted to taste what selfishness was like, and she did with Jack, and even though she leaned in a bit, she still moved back and away from him.

She didn't want that. She didn't want HIM. Her choice was made right there on that ship. If she loved Jack...I think she would have stayed with him, fought with him, died with him. That's how Liz IS. She's a doer, remember?

She didn't. She left him, and went with Will. End of story. Jack is dead, Will is alive...her choice was made.

Sorry your theory dont make sense Surreal.

She didn't want that. She didn't want HIM. Her choice was made right there on that ship. If she loved Jack...I think she would have stayed with him, fought with him, died with him. That's how Liz IS. She's a doer, remember?

She didn't. She left him, and went with Will. End of story. Jack is dead, Will is alive...her choice was made

WHY THE HELL SHE WAS CRYING IN TIAS HUT??!! She made the choice to go with Will she forced herself to go and she didnt look happy about the choice. She thought by kissing the man her temptation will be satisfied but it had gone worse! All this plan of chaining him up it wasnt because she didnt want him, on the contrary!!! She chained him up bc the temptation was too much her heart was giving out to much.

How will you explain the way her face lights up and sees Jack that he came to the rescue. How the balls can you explain the way she hold on to him while he was trying to aim the kraken. If thats not a loving gesture then I dont know what is. Miss Swann ended up exactly doing what Mr Sparrow said she will do. "To act on a slefish impulse" she did it for herself. Not for Will not even the crew-she chained him up because she didnt want to make herself look bad to Will and the others by knowing that she let herself fall for a pirate. Elizabeth's problem is that she tries too hard to be good and ends up being worse. Then wants to make everybody believe that shes a saint with a moral center when shes just simply a horny, confused, love-struck girl who fell for Jack Sparrow.

Elizabeth is crying in the house because she killed a guy. She KILLED someone, and she is not a killer. Have you ever taken the life of anything besides a mosquito or a fly? I don't think most J/E shippers look at aspect of Jack's death. Thus far, Elizabeth has only ever stabbed at undead pirates. She's never actually had a kill, per se, even if death has been an indirect result of her actions.

Taking a life is NOT easy. Especially not for a woman in that time period. Her reaction is similar to a soldier's who has made a first kill. She's shaken by what she's done.

If you think that calling Elizabeth a crazed, love-sick girl is a great defence for J/E, think again. You've basically ruined a brilliant, wonderful character that TnT worked hard to create. Instead of the brave, fiercely independent, wonderful, loyal woman that is Elizabeth, you made her out to be a nutcase who is about as shallow as a person can possibly be.

As far as hanging onto Jack and her being happy he's there....normal human reactions. Also, it's plot devicy, to make J/E er...'obvious'. Like I said, Jack is dead, Will is alive. That's the end of the triangle.

how can that be the end of the triangle if they're going to bring jack back?

The writers said that if they never made another movie, DMC has the closure on the triangle, although they would have wrapped up the DJ storyline differently.

The triangle, for the writers, is resolved.

Originally posted by Surreal_44
Elizabeth is crying in the house because she killed a guy. She KILLED someone, and she is not a killer. Have you ever taken the life of anything besides a mosquito or a fly? I don't think most J/E shippers look at aspect of Jack's death. Thus far, Elizabeth has only ever stabbed at undead pirates. She's never actually had a kill, per se, even if death has been an indirect result of her actions.

Taking a life is NOT easy. Especially not for a woman in that time period. Her reaction is similar to a soldier's who has made a first kill. She's shaken by what she's done.

If you think that calling Elizabeth a crazed, love-sick girl is a great defence for J/E, think again. You've basically ruined a brilliant, wonderful character that TnT worked hard to create. Instead of the brave, fiercely independent, wonderful, loyal woman that is Elizabeth, you made her out to be a nutcase who is about as shallow as a person can possibly be.

As far as hanging onto Jack and her being happy he's there....normal human reactions. Also, it's plot devicy, to make J/E er...'obvious'. Like I said, Jack is dead, Will is alive. That's the end of the triangle.

i think that if she didn't love jack then she wouldn't have been crying
i get what you're saying about the crying because it was the first person she killed, but elizabeth isn't a typical woman of that time period, keria said herself that she's a modern time girl stuck in the 1700's. would be you crying if you killed someone to save you're own ass?i wouldn't unless i had feelings for them.

and sure that could have been the end of the love triangle and she could have ended up with will, but thats not how it happened, they're bringing back jack-'cause sexy's gone right now and only jack can bring sexy back(not JT-lol)

First off, let me preface this by saying that while I do ship J/E, I am not a die hard. I love W/E almost equally, but prefer J/E. In otherwords, my opinion is more objective than it sounds. I actually like Will, and I agree with what the writers are doing with his character in AWE. Ok, back to the task at hand.

On DMC being the end of the series:

Well, yes it would have been resolved, but look at how it was resolved. It was resolved with Elizabeth choosing to kiss Jack in a very passionate manner and chaining him to the mast. (You have to admit whether you're W/E or J/E that she might have picked a different way to chain him to the mast. She's a smart girl, so there was more to that decision than meets the eye).

Not only did she choose to do that, but that choice was seen by Will. Do you see why that's important? If DMC had indeed been the end, then yes, she went back to Will, but their relationship would never be the same! You can see that from his reaction as she got back into the boat. There's a rift between them that will never be healed, whether he softens towards her or not.

If you've read the leaked script, and you've made comments about how Will reacts rashly, you can see that the outcome of that decision has altered forever their story. Elizabeth's decision will continue to have repercussions, mainly on the way that it's so severely effected Will. I'm not saying that they won't be able to work things out. Anything is possible, I'm just saying that I'll be surprised if they can because of some of Will's choices.

The writers have said that Jack's character hasn't changed so much as it has been revealed. I think the same can be said for Will in AWE. Elizabeth's choice and his reaction to her choice has shed knew light on his character, and it's not such a flattering picture. His willingness to rush to rash action, which seemed like such a positive attribute in the first two movies has become his fatal flaw.

Will has shown time and again that he doesn't always think first about the consequences of his actions. It's not so much that the triangle has been resolved, because there are still some hanging questions that need to be answered, mainly, did Elizabeth really make the right choice in returning to Will. (I'm not saying this to provoke you, but it's an honest, objective question). Not to mention, that also leaves Jack's feelings unresolved, and the writers have made no qualms about insinuating that Jack feels more than what is said in DMC. In my opinion, I think that, since the writers have specifically stated that AWE will be Will's movie, that it will be his choices that will resolve the matter of the triangle. In the leaked script of AWE, Will's anger has set him down a dangerous path. I'm not saying that he'll drive Elizabeth into Jack's waiting arms or anything like that. I'm saying that his flaws are beginning to show. Another essential question to the outcome of the series will be, Can Will realize his flaws, accept them and love them both in himself and in Elizabeth? Or, can he accept that Elizabeth is a pirate and a good woman? At this point, and with only half the script, it's hard to say what his decision will be.

Surreal44. Hunny bunch..I'm really sorry people thought you were the reason I left last night..It wasn't you lol. I was just stressed. I was only gonna leave for like a day or so cuz I just needed some time to think.

What Elizabeth did at the end of DMC shows us more about her feelings for Jack rather than Will. If she knew as a certainty that she loved Will and he was the only man for her and Jack was nothing to her..then she would have never felt the need to personally make sure a man was removed from her life "for good" Why did she make such an overly dramatic statment? People only make statmentslike that when they are trying to prove to themselves that they dont need something in their lives.. That was not an act of certainty..that was an act of pure fear and desperation.

It was fear of emotions she is feeling for Jack. Just as he came back they clearly sky rocketed, he was made to look as if he was an angel sent from heaven to protect her, there was even a halo of light to suggest this. I feel this is the moment it all became far too much for her when it came to Jack.

Will came back before this remember, she ran to him. She could have shown us all there that Will was the most important man in her life. But oh how quickly the situation returned to Jack? She wasn't concerned about Will and his father..all the struggle he wen through.. All emotions returned to Jack in that scene.

Notice how the facial expressions were the opposite of what you would expect in that last scene?

Jack had a face that said: I'm winning against you
Elizabeth had a face that said: I'm losing against you

very strange when you consider he's about to die and she's going to live and return to "her one true love"

You would expect her to look different to that if she felt she was doing what she really wanted...but her face shows us that its not what she wants at all. She didnt look as if she was gaining what she wanted..She looked as if she was losing something she really wants.

And if Jack felt he had lost her to Will..well He wouldnt be smiling like that I can assure you.

Jack knows whats really going on with her..She sees him as a tempting threat...one that if he's with her could make her leave Will...and she loves Will (IMO as a brother/mother) so she doesnt want to hurt him. She's very over protective of him. She has recently seen how her choice to leave norrington for Will has ruined his life. She probably doesnt want to leave Will for Jack and ruin Will's life..

But dear ole Will? His priorities have switched around. Liz is no longer No1 to him. His father is...so funnily enough..He is the one choosing someone else over her.

Ooh, such fun responses.

First off, I just have to say that this thread is becoming a rather fun debate, and I'd like to compliment everyone on their theories/ideas. They are all wonderful to read.

Now, onto the debate. 😉

mmoviemagic said:

i get what you're saying about the crying because it was the first person she killed, but elizabeth isn't a typical woman of that time period, keria said herself that she's a modern time girl stuck in the 1700's. would be you crying if you killed someone to save you're own ass?i wouldn't unless i had feelings for them.

Hopefully you will never be in this situation. I can tell you from experience that the taking of any life is never easy. I can also tell you that killing a human is something far beyond the scope of what you or I can imagine. I have quite a few friends who are soldiers, police officers, and FBI officers.

I can tell you, that in fact, you can, and often times do, cry, when taking the life of someone. I've held grown men in my arms often enough as they fight their inner demons and weep about the things that they've done and the choices they've made in combat or high stress situations, and none of them even knew the people personally.

Elizabeth did know Jack personally, and I believe quite strongly that this is why she is crying. She left Jack to die. Even the writers have mentioned how one of the reasons that Elizabeth did that to Jack was to punish him for what he had done to Will.

Jack abandoned Will (or so it seems to Will and Elizabeth) to the Flying Dutchman, so Elizabeth is getting revenge by abandoning Jack. The thing is, however, that she does have a moral compass, and her decision ended up being far more difficult for her to deal with than what she had expected.

As far as the triangle being resolved, I don't think that bringing Jack back has to do with it. I think that Elizabeth wants to redeem herself, and correct what she's done.

Since you are so honest, savvysparrow, I might as well be frank too...I could see how J/E end up together. I really can. There is a good, logical argument for them ending up together...but there are a few reasons I don't think it will be that way.

But first, let me dissect your excellent post....

Well, yes it would have been resolved, but look at how it was resolved. It was resolved with Elizabeth choosing to kiss Jack in a very passionate manner and chaining him to the mast. (You have to admit whether you're W/E or J/E that she might have picked a different way to chain him to the mast. She's a smart girl, so there was more to that decision than meets the eye).

I don't really think there was more to this decision than that she needed to trick Jack, and this was the best way to do it. Words don't work with him, she's not strong enough to force him to do it...so what is left to her? Kissing him, of course. This also ties into what Jack said, that she would want to taste what being selfish is like. Elizabeth is satisfying her own selfish curiosity. Notice that she leans in slightly, but Jack doesn't move, and instead of closing the distance, Elizabeth pulls away.

Triangle resolved. Jack didn't want her (he accepted what she had done, the same as he accepted what the crew of the Pearl did to him in the first movie), but he made no motion to touch her, to kiss her back, or to kiss her again. Now, I am not saying that he still won't have feelings for her in the third installment (once you love Elizabeth, it seems, you just don't stop), but as TnT have said, the triangle is ended. It's complete, finite, done.

Yes, Will saw the kiss (plot device!), but look at her expression immediately after kissing Jack. I don't see love, I don't see passion--at least not the kind that indicates love...I see determination, hatred and anger. After a few seconds I see regret, but there is no love.

Not only did she choose to do that, but that choice was seen by Will. Do you see why that's important? If DMC had indeed been the end, then yes, she went back to Will, but their relationship would never be the same! You can see that from his reaction as she got back into the boat. There's a rift between them that will never be healed, whether he softens towards her or not.

Of course it's changed. I don't think, once they get Jack back, that he's going to fall on his knees, declare his undying (hehe) love for Lizzie and instantly forget that she chained him up and left him to die. And I didn't expect Will to go, "Aw, shucks. She kissed Jack, but I love her so much I don't care."

His reaction was very human and realistic to what she had done. So yes, there is a rift, but I think they will eventually over-come that...especially if it all comes to the surface about what she had done. Remember, I think things would have been fixed between them if Tia had not interrupted.

I'm honestly convinced that most of this is...plot devicey. By that, I mean that all of these interruptions of Will and Elizabeth's relationship is done simply to draw out the tension, to see whether or not they will end up together.

If you've read the leaked script, and you've made comments about how Will reacts rashly, you can see that the outcome of that decision has altered forever their story. Elizabeth's decision will continue to have repercussions, mainly on the way that it's so severely effected Will. I'm not saying that they won't be able to work things out. Anything is possible, I'm just saying that I'll be surprised if they can because of some of Will's choices

I hate to even use a leaked script for a debate such as this, since the premise of my debate is based on the evidence from the first two movies, and though my knowledge of film-making is woefully inadequate, a lot of things can happen or change from a rough draft to a final script.

Quite a few of the situations may have been changed, dialogue might be entirely different, and half-way through the plot, the writers may have decided they hated everything they wrote and pitched it all (not that I have ever, ever done such a thing with anything that I've written).

IF the leaked script is true, I can see plenty of ways that the gap between Will and Elizabeth can be diminished, and how they can overcome their difficulties. I think I'll start up a thread to discuss where the script left off (Will and Jack fighting), and write out how I envision things could work from there, and then invite everyone else to come up with their ideas. Maybe we can all come up with the actual ending! Woot!

Anyway, back to this debate...I really like the questions you have about the relationship, savvysparrow, but the writers did say that the triangle was resolved. So maybe you still have questions (I still have questions about Scruffington!), but I stand by the idea that W/E will somehow end up together by the end of AWE.