The compass

yeah its like He's given up the pearl for her, long ago IMO, right from the start of DMC. He has everything he thought he wanted yet the pearl is no longer enough for him hence the fact his compass points to Liz

At the end He'll also give up her(who he now desires most) in order for her to be safe. I think he was gonna stay..and it pained him so much to let her go there..you see that long shot of him just staring at her then Gibb's line about abandoning ship..he looks pained (its short but you see it) he then walks in the opposite direction..then he looks really sad and depressed wern Liz comes in close proximity..

now that Kiss.. Itchanged something in both characters. It was essential to both characters' development..actually all 3 character are now changed after that kiss. Each is affected by it.

Jack's desire turned to love there IMO (compass doesnt show you what you love)

Liz's desire is still there..its actually magnified now because she gave into temptation and she's clearly still not had enough..she has all the potential to love him by movie 3.

Will's actions in movie 3 are now souly based on that kiss IMO

I can kinda see where the next thing is heading with Jack (guessing mostly)..and its not giving up her so she can be safe..its him giving up something else more major so that she can be safe...

Or for Liz that kiss may signal the end of lust driven feelings towards Jack...its just the deeper feelings left now...which are actually rather behind in terms of maturity unlike the lust she expresses. Its not love yet when it comes to Jack..I dont think..This can and probably will only happen right at the end of AWE. It took Jack that long for it to move from desire/caring for Liz to shift into love.

I think Jack's lust is now gone...its just love/respect

Another good question to ask is, would Jack have stayed with or without the kiss? Were Elizabeth's actions for naught? I think it's probably that they were. So then, it becomes even more apparent that the kiss was less about Jack's actions and more about Elizabeth's.

to quote what I said earlier😂 :

but I just dont think the pearl is what he wants most anymore.(constatly his compass was pointing at Elizabeth and away from her then at her again..not the pearl)

I think he's actually giving up Elizabeth here(what he desires most) in order to do the honorable cause(stay behind so they can escape)

..look at his face when gibbs shouts "abandon ship or abandon hope" he looks very pained at the thought of Elizabeth leaving him.(after a long shot showing us that he's just staring at her)

He actually walks in the opposite diretion, when she chains him he's silent..clearly leaving the pearl was never his true intent.

Its basically what Liz does..she gives up what she desires to do the right thing^^ So yes they are very similar 😄

but that Kiss changed things around yet again for each character..Its whats going to shape the next movie.

Would Jack walk away from Elizabeth again if the situation called for it. If it was what was in the best interest for all involved? This is the next question.

No I think the kiss/actions shifted everything around again..he was going to stay anyway but that happened meaning an emotional shift for each character..

I think elizabeth is going to be very chaste now as is Jack...Now the lust/desire is washed away and for Jack its now love and acceptance. Elizabeths lust is washed away but not sure about the desire/deeper feelings..she's not crossed over into love yet.

Will's actions in movie 3 will also now link back to that kiss.

Have you taken a really indepth look at the rough draft script? People are so quick to dismiss it because it's a rough draft, but I think of it more as a frame work.

It's hard to say what Elizabeth's deeper feelings are, because she's more confused than the audience. I think that she hoped that the kiss resolve whatever conflict layed within her, but in all actuality, it raised more questions. So much so, that I think it will cause her to examine Will more closely. And he's not exactly presenting his best side. But, in all fairness, it's quite possible that she may finally see that he's her match in that it's their imperfections that make them so perfect for each other. (I can see that being a Disney sort of ending, with Jack having learned that he's a good man).

I think of a lot of it hinges on what Will's reaction will be to her informing him that she was willing to murder Jack. His faith in her will be shaken on more than one level at that point, because she's commited not one, but two sins. In the rough draft script, Jack is willing to forgive the Kracken for murdering him, and is able to admire it all the more, but Will at that particular moment is not. I think that says a lot about their characters.

she need not have done that to Jack to chain him to the mast. There could have been other means..the kiss was cinematically uneeded unless it is signifying some sort emotional shift for her and Jack. I think the aftermath of the kiss is the most important thing to look at for both her and Jack, not the kiss itself

imagine they had taken that kiss out and then we se Jack smiling like that..and then LIz almost kissing him before she leaves..it would have been far more clear what that shift was.

..and the fact Will sees this it's a shift for him too. Thats the most important thing to notice when it comes to his character.

even the music before she does it is melodramatic..its signaling that this very moment is important..things are about to change forever for her, Jack and even Will. IMO She's spoiling her feast by eating the waffle first.

the change in music after the kiss is SO important to spot too..its suddenly expresses the change caused by the kiss IMO..its like a sad, desperate music saying "I want you so much but I cant have you"

such a contrast from the..raising chorus just moments before.

YEs what you said in that last paragraph makes lots of sense..I often felt that Liz in movie 2 resemles the kraken..a force of "lust" on her behalf coming after him..we see the Kraken...you know what all overJack before it kills him ...Then the kraken also dies..which signals that Liz's lust for Jack is not going to be there in movie 3..this may confuse us but trust me..she's Jack's "shape-shifter" 🙂 and he understands her now because he recently got to stage 9 (reward) he's reconciled himself with the female, meaning all Liz's actions and shape shifting is now clear to him and he understands it all as one thing instead of lots of confusing and "irritating" everchanginf atributes of the opposite sex.

and Yes Jack respects things when they beat him..so it explains the peas in the pod scene(movie 1), the moments after Jack is chained there(movie 2), and what he says about the dead Kraken.

sorry 3rd post in a row then I'm off to bed.

the shape shifting woman

when you look at the Odyssey..and Odysseus (Jack) he encounters many women on his journey and he learns various things from each..but the women in the story actually resemble the many different traits of the female sex(to the male that is)..all it takes is 2 females "Calypso/sirens" for all of these ever changing aspects to be tied together for Odysseus and finally he is returned to the man he was before (after 7 years of hibernation as a character)..and so it all ties into him wanting Penelope. That is the shape shifting of that story I believe

PotC doesn't have enough female characters to do this. There is Calypso But Elizabeth is the shape shifter in Jack's eyes. Meaning we see one female trait now and another later..She may resemble the sirens/calypso in a way at the end of DMC..but when Jack comes back she's going to resemble Nausicaa (the pure virgin) Odysseus now covers his nakedness/masculinity that so recently dominated his existence and shows honor and decency all after finally surrendering to the vast feminine (Poseidon's sea) in Jacks case Davy's "vagina" shaped Kraken lmao..he's then reborn again from the waves..etc etc..he now understands all the women he comes across and finally he returns to Penelope...who IMO is Elizabeth (the trur LIz Jack now understands) Jack should get Elizabeth at the end after she's stopped behaving like "Nausicaa" (who wants Oddy as a husband but is still concerned with her modesty/honor..so she makes him walk many paces behind her as she enters the city. But she is VERY taken with Odysseus and his honor/respect and decency he shows her but she tries hard not to show that she is so taken by him.)

Its really hard to explain. Probably seems like I'm blabbing on about loads of crap lol..probably am (very tired)

Isn't it great how you can apply Greek mythology to pretty much everything? If you really wanted to, you could also apply Biblical allusions too, but I'll leave that to your superior knowledge.
And who says that high school/college English classes are a waste of time? Somehow I don't think the writers had all of this in mind when they were coming up with the story, but it does illustrate why it is that Pirates is such a popular series. It incorporates themes and characters that have been beloved and popular from the earliest civilizations.

Ok, once more into the fray. Obviously, the writers had something in mind when they decided to kill Jack off in DMC. The true cliff hanger of DMC was not Jack's death, we all knew he was coming back, but the lack of resolution with the triangle. They killed Jack off with the idea of having him be "reborn". There's a lot of imagery of life and death, (sunrise, sunset) in the script that I think illustrates this. He's turned over a new leaf and there will be even more light shinned on what it is that made Jack who he is.

What I've noticed is that the writers are working very hard to make him a sympathetic character. He did the right thing in DMC. He continues to do the right things in AWE. Also, there is the matter of their writing and releasing his back story. Why would the writers go to all that trouble to create this triangle, reveal Jack's character and reveal Elizabeth's character without having some greater purpose in mind?

you're right. The cliffhanger isnt Jacks death, its the love triangle that was left unsolved from DMC. Apart from the ressurection of Barbossa. What the auidience expect right now from movie 3 is the sense of closure on resolving the love triangle. But is it really considered a love triangle?? I sometimes dont. It was left pretty clear that liz wanted jack. Problem was how Will was gonna handle it.

Why would the writers go to all that trouble to create this triangle, reveal Jack's character and reveal Elizabeth's character without having some greater purpose in mind?

Well, what's interesting about your observation is that one writer has said that there is a love triangle, and one writer has said that there isn't.

They've never said which way that goes and it depends on your personal preference. I would call it a triangle, because we don't yet know what Elizabeth's feelings on the subject are. It's possible that she never loved Will, or that she doesn't love Jack. Unfortunately, it could literally go either way.

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
So...Jack calling her pirate is like a way to say leave< ill stay, I will do what you want me to? no no thats not it-Im wrong

But you think Liz was expecting Jack to be scared and loose his cool while she chained him up?

Now im not sure, but what seems to me Liz left him chained bc she was angry that Jack called her a pirate. And smiled during the process. Angry also that Jack could give her such temptation in making her lean in for another kiss. So if Jack wouldve said nothing, she would unchain him? Im not sure about this though, I think she wouldve chained him anyways bc of her growing feelings for jack. Its the only way she has to stay with Will.

Well, yes and no. I think she expected a different reaction than what she got. Most people, including Will, would have condemned her for chaining them to the mast, but that is the fundamental difference between Jack and someone like Will. At the moment, Will doesn't have an alterable moral landscape, though it will not always be so. The writers have said that Jack has his own internal moral landscape in that he evaluates each decision as it comes. His saying 'pirate' is more of him saying: "I understand." He's reassuring her, in a sort of noble way that he's ok with her decision.

Though, in the same moment, he's also pointing out to her that he was right all along, that all the things they were saying to one another during the Curiousity sequence were essentially true, gently reminding if you will.

And, I think you're right in that she's frightened of the implications of Jack's return. I was trying to figure out what made her switch from being overwrought with joy at Jack's return to the Pearl and clinging to his leg, to her making her decision to chain him to the mast. I think Jack's reminder that she is a Pirate in such a gentle way is his way of calling her out--holding her accountable. She chains him to the mast to essentially dictate that he will remain a good man, his last word to her was Pirate, reminding her to stay true to who she really is, and also, more importantly to call her out about all the fibs she told while she chained him to the mast.

Originally posted by savvysparrow
Well, yes and no. I think she expected a different reaction than what she got. Most people, including Will, would have condemned her for chaining them to the mast, but that is the fundamental difference between Jack and someone like Will. At the moment, Will doesn't have an alterable moral landscape, though it will not always be so. The writers have said that Jack has his own internal moral landscape in that he evaluates each decision as it comes. His saying 'pirate' is more of him saying: "I understand." He's reassuring her, in a sort of noble way that he's ok with her decision.

Though, in the same moment, he's also pointing out to her that he was right all along, that all the things they were saying to one another during the Curiousity sequence were essentially true, gently reminding if you will.

And, I think you're right in that she's frightened of the implications of Jack's return. I was trying to figure out what made her switch from being overwrought with joy at Jack's return to the Pearl and clinging to his leg, to her making her decision to chain him to the mast. I think Jack's reminder that she is a Pirate in such a gentle way is his way of calling her out--holding her accountable. She chains him to the mast to essentially dictate that he will remain a good man, his last word to her was Pirate, reminding her to stay true to who she really is, and also, more importantly to call her out about all the fibs she told while she chained him to the mast.

you are so smart. i agree with this post 100%. very eloquent. 🙂

There are a lot of interesting points to be addressed here, and it's rather late, and I have absolutely no time to post for everything on here tonight (but look for it tomorrow 😄 ), but one thing I want to address is this issue with Will choosing his father over Elizabeth.

This is not the case. Will has chosen his father over Jack . Will still loves Elizabeth and wants to save her, but he has a drive now to save his father as well. Why?

Well, first, Will wants a family. He was not exactly thrilled to see his father at first, and Will obviously still feels somewhat betrayed by his father leaving him when he was younger.

What drove Will to make that vow to his father was his father's sacrifice. This was the proof he needed that his father loves him, and that he is worthy of being saved.

This is such a vital part of the movie, and it seems to get lost in all the 'shippiness', I'm kind of saddened that everyone has forgotten how poignant these scenes are to try to prove a relationship.

As I've said, I do not believe that Pirates is a love story, but that the messages are far deeper than that.

What I really want to see in the third movie is a closure of Will and his father, where either Bootstrap is freed or dies to save Will. All this shipping has made everyone ignore the other plots of the movie, such as you know, the EITC, the Chinese pirates, and as SavvySparrow mentioned, Norrington.

I believe Norrington's arc will be the most interesting out of all the characters, and because of the parallels between not only himself and Will, but also between himself and Davy Jones that there is an excellent possibility that he will be stabbing the heart.

The writers have mentioned that the 'Turner sword' (Norrington's sword that Beckett had), has a bit of destiny of its own. Since Norrington is likely the one to have it in the next film, I wonder what that destiny is?

Ok, now I must go to bed, but look for a more in-depth shipping post tomorrow. 😄

The Turner sword has a history?! Wow, that's cool! I didn't know that. What I love so much about the Pirates movies is that there is something for every one, and that there is so much depth to all the stories. I can think of half a dozen characters that I think could warrant their own movie, or at least their own story.

I agree that there are some beautiful moments between Will and his father. I really like the actor they picked to play Bootstrap. One of my favorite lines is 'I could say it wasn't what I wanted when I left you to go pirating, but it would taste a lie.' There are some truly poignant moments, and I wish there was more time in DMC to develop that story. You can hate me for saying it, but I actually could have done without the cannibal scenes. They were funny and original, but there were other things I was curious about. It seems like they have an awful lot of things to resolve in AWE.

I want to know why it is he was so loyal to Jack? I know Bootstrap's a noble man, but Jack must have done something to inspire that loyalty at one time. Personally, I think it has to do with Jack's backstory. So much seems to be tied to things in Jack's past and the decisions surrounding the Pearl. Also, what sort of mark did Jack leave on Beckett?

It's funny that you mention that Norrington's story also parallels the Davy Jones story---All three of the male members of the pyramid have the potential to follow Davy Jones footsteps. The possibilities are endless. Also, Bootstrap may make on more final sacrifice on behalf of Jack and his son.

Gosh, so many great things to discuss!

Yes, there really are. We all focus on the love story so much we forget about everyone else.

What could have happened, savvysparrow, is that Jack may or may not have done anything especially noble to earn Bootstrap's trust. Bootstrap has a pretty tight "moral center" and it's not moral to betray one's captain unless there are very extreme situations. Judging from Barbossa's disapproval of how Jack ran things, Jack wasn't an extreme person and often showed mercy and restraint when he didn't have to. He doesn't have a taste for killing, either. So it was simply the wrong thing to do to betray Captain Jack.
So I can see him making a sacrifice for Jack again. This is what's so great about the story. Although Jack and Will have a couple of things (but not everything) in common and make excellent teammates, they're bitterly jealous of each other and it just turns into plain dislike. If Bootstrap makes a sacrifice for Jack, that might be what pushes Will over the edge. Even if Liz chooses Jack, Will can always say at least he has his father. Now if Boostrap makes a sacrifice for Will, that would be different.

Will never willingly helped Jack in DMC surreal44 he thought going on Davy's ship would get Liz back in the long run. Thats the only reason why he agrees to help him He then bumps into his dad and he becomes top priority.

First he chose Elizabeth over Jack now he's choosing his father over Elizabeth.

Will set off in search of his father..It was the thing he wanted most as a child. He did not know anything about him so he cant feel betrayed yet. Meaning the meeting with Elizabeth is what caused this.

Pirates is not a love story..It seems to be a melodrama..not a "domestic melodrama"..just a melodrama. Especialy when it comes to Liz and Jack.

Its conflicting themes, moral choices etc emotional battles

where as Will is the only one without the compass in hand in the movie. He's more verbal and far more straight forward compared with Liz and Jack who are melodramatic characters.

Will does stab the heart.

And he even gives up Liz to do so..but he does marry her before doing so. More for her probably than himself.

He is the only character with a " touch of destiny about him" So he is the one following the more tragic route. But by the end he willingly wants to stab that heart. He accepted that destiny on the Dutchman when he took his fathers knife and made an on screen oath to him..He has made an emotional tie and now it wont be broken. When its a tragedy for a character in a movie/story, its only a tragedy because they bring it upon themselves. Will has in DMC and will bring it upon himself much more in AWE

I sense the ending will be Wills fault and it will be his responibility to stab the heart and he will.