The compass

Surreal44. I think we can kinda look at Lizzies theme as a melodramatic theme..here is something I scanned in on another thread, Ignore the ticks:

To me Liz and Jack are very melodramatic in character. Will isn't, he expresses his feelings openly quite a bit. Where as Jack/Liz speak through actions when it comes to eachother.

usually in a melodrama the female is introduced to something they want more than anything in the world(and it can be flipped round to be a man)..and they feel as if society is against them and that they shouldn't have it because its a "forbidden love". Will/Liz is not forbidden. Jack/Liz is forbidden.

when you look at those bullet points and such it really does ring true with the character of Elizabeth in this movie(even Jack)...and if this is a melodramatic theme then its not the Will/Liz relationship that is the main focal point . Its the Jack/Liz relationship that is the main focal point..and with Liz, she really does come across as a melodramatic character to me.I feel Jack/Liz are following the melodramatic route.and Will is following the "tragic" one..he does stab the heart and he's basically accepted that destiny already.

I think it's great that the last part of DMC has so many plausible interpretations. If you really think about it, that is a\mazing writing. It's phenomenal that two different people can look at the same exact scene and come to two very different conclusions.

Couple of things. The writers have said that the triangle has been resolved?! Where did I miss that quote? I want to read it! (I like to read what they say and dissect it because usually it always has a double meaning).

Anyway, it's hard to go on facial expressions when it comes to interpretations. I know film is a visual art, but facial expressions are so dodgy. You see hatred, I see determination and a little self-loathing. And I'm not saying that she didn't chain him to the mast to hold him accountable for his actions. She is one of the few characters who is capable of holding him accoutable. But I still believe there was more at work in her sacrificing him the way she did and I honestly don't know what it is. Call it a gut feeling.

(Small aside, I also wonder about Tia's interruption. I don't think she is the innocent that they've made her seem in DMC. There's something about her interest in Will that seems suspicious to me. She's up to something and I think she'll try to mannipulate him some how. Maybe you had the same impression?)

The writers have said that while there have been revisions to the rough draft script since it was leaked, that the bulk of it has stayed the same. I'm not saying that some things haven't changed. Apparently, the entire opening is completely different. I'm basing my opinion primarily on the overrall spirit of all the characters in the rough draft. If that makes any sense at all. I guess I see it more as character direction than anything. If the rough draft was a sketch of what they wanted to do in AWE, and you're right, it's hard to tell with only 56 pages, then I'd say it gives us something of an idea. Will's development makes a whole lot of sense in AWE.

The major issue I see is whether or not Will and Elizabeth can see their differences, examine them closely and decide whether or not they are still compatiable. I think in a lot of ways they are, especially if Will's knight in shinning armor facade continues to crack.

But, my question is, how do you explain Will's 'touch of destiny?' And how does Elizabeth fit into the picture? You have to admit that he's slightly blinded at the moment by his quest to aide his father. (There are a lot of moments in DMC where it seems as though Elizabeth is secondary, which who's to say isn't correct?). He seems more than willing to sacrifice the crew of the Blackpearl to go back and fight Davy Jones to rescue his father in DMC.

Gosh, I have so much to say about this whole entire topic but I'll refrain because everyone needs a chance to weigh in. Surreal, you've got me thinking!

One of the points:

"In melodramatic cinema, the interior emotions of the characters are expressed in means other than verbal Language: setting, color, music and other aspects in the mise en scene. Big emotions can sometimes not be put into words, and the feeling is displaced into other cinematic codes and signs"

Mise en scene is basally EVERY thing we see on the screen, say you freeze framed your DVD, so this means camera angles, lighting and props so yes thats the compass...and yes even the dog and its keys/bone willofthewisp lmao

things that cant be put into words are put into actions and anything else in a scene

also lines with double meanings

and facial expressions..the music in that last scene etc.

the opening shot IS suggestive to that line about the widow etc etc..

IMO anyways..

their emotions are expressed through other things in the mise en scene

so no I wouldn't say we are looking to deep into things my fellow J/E shippers..when it comes to supporting our ship...cuz its a melodramatic ship it seems

this explains why there are so many symbolic things/actions when it comes to Jack/Liz rather than straight forward words.(although that doesn't mean the words spoken between Jack/Liz don't have meaning) Its just the big, major emotions that are expressed through other things like actions, facial expressions, music, camera angles, lighting and the compass etc..the DOG, bone and keys (I will stick by that till the day I die I swear 😂 )

savvysparrow I kinda explained Will's destiny..would you not say he fits in with this:

The function of melodrama is to clarify (make clear) the moral choices we make every day. There is a clear distinction to be made between melodrama and tragedy. The latter usually features noble characters who are determined to pursue a certain goal. Sometimes in conflict with the gods themselves, even to the point of death. There is very little whining or moaning in the acceptance of their destiny because, they themselves have shaped it and take full responsibility for it

Jack/Liz actually fit in to the melodramatic category as characters where as Will fits into the "tragic" one as a character....just my opinion..and knowledge that he is one who stabs the heart because of that set goal in movie 2..to save his father and Elizabeth..he accepts it willingly in the salmon revision script I read too.

..look at that sheet i just posted 🙂

Sorry lovelyone! I didn't get a chance to look at what you wrote. What I wrote was actually in response to Surreal's post. I can only handle so much interesting and good infromation at one time. 🙂

Ok, your post. By the way, do you think they used mise un scen in the kiss scene. I thought it was interesting that their placement essentially made a triangle, and that Will initially starts in the background. But as the camera revolves, Will comes into the foreground. That may symbolize her choice, but that doesn't mean necessarily mean that it will remain her choice. As Governor Swann says in the first film: Sometimes the right decision if made for the wrong reasons can be a wrong decision....

And as for Will's touch of destiny. I actually agree. There is an element of the tragic in his character. And you're right about his defying the gods. Will's seeming disregard for his person and his willingness to take terrible risks is sort of evidence of this. In my opinion there are times where he is in danger and appears as though he's impervious to it. Like the scene where he is captured by the Pelegostas. He's in danger, with no real chance of winning, yet he thinks well enough of himself that he can fight all them. (Listen to his dialogue in this scene, as well as when he's surrounded by Davy Jones' crew.)

Excellent point lovely one! And welcome back!

They may have used mise en scene to express that triangle. Its interesting because it might signal why she's doing what she's doing. I don't see that as a final choice though, not at all also that Gov Swann line is OH SO INTERESTING! what a find!

..I also notice various other triangle moments in the movie. liekwhen all 3 men are holding their swords in the shape of a triangle..Its only Jack's who's pointing to her.

secondly when Liz has the compass, Jack/Norrie and will are all in a triangle. Jack being S/E, norrie S/W and Will N/E..It actually points to Jack..and that whole "true enough! this compass does not point north" thing is interesting lol...

pretty much everything between Jack/Liz and the triangle is symbolic or action filled..its not really words to each other..the only deep convo they had was the curiosity scene..and even the words seem meaningless when Liz is trying to kiss him..her actions are the dominant thing in the scene..its a very melodramatic theme in this movie, especially with Liz/Jack because they are the only ones with the compass pointing between to conflicting things where as Will is much more straight forward..which is the tragic route I'm afraid to say.

and thanks for th welcome back 😄

this one line from that sheet is very intersting in terms of Jack/Liz and how they might be feeling..the compass shows them what they desire most and also what they feel to be their own morals etc. Elizabeth wants to save Will the very most..but at the same time she wants Jack the very most. Jack wants to have Liz the very most but at the same time he wants to only care about himself.

"what is the right thing to do in this situation? How can I reconcile my desire with my own personal sense of morality?"

the compass isnt about moral its about desire. Is that what you're trying to say?

I think its to do with moral and desire..Will is the moral, Jack is the desire

So ok. The compass pointed to the chest at first because in her moral sense, she wanted to save Will. So then it pointed to Jack bc in her desire she wanted Jack.

yeah pretty much IMO^^

Surreal mentioned Scruffington earlier and I actually wanted to go back and address him. In addition to having great respect for Will, I have a small crush on Norrington as a character. I think his story is so beautifully written, but never gets the attention it deserves. Anyway, what I'm beginning to notice is some similarities between Will and Norrington. Obviously, I'm aware that they're different characters and that their story lines aren't exactly a like. But though they're in different positions, they share some interesting qualities. (This relates to the triangle blocking Lovelyone, so there is a point, I promise).

What actually occurred to me is that in the scene where all three men are fighting for control of the chest, is that Norrington and Will are left to battle each other. They're on the same playing field, evenly matched, in similar positions in terms of where they stand with Elizabeth. (Not exactly, but from a certain point of view). If you look at the battle between the three men, Jack gets to the heart of the matter. They aren't really fighting about reclaimed honor, or about the chest, but for Elizabeth. Meanwhile, it's Norrington who engages Will, and Jack who escapes with the prize. Here's my point: These two men are so embroilled in their fight to possess what it is that they want, that they end up losing it because of their short sightedness. They're both so caught up with the here and now that they fail to see the bigger picture. (Certainly that's some of Will's flaw, and you can say it was also Norrington's.

Also, the whole thing with tragedy versus melodrama. The same analysis can be applied to Norrington. He's so obsessed with regaining his honor that he defies the gods, and the good man he once was to obtain his goals. Like Will, he also uses a similar dialogue to Will when he is faced with a seemingly impossible situation. He's so certain of his sword fighting skills that he challenges a bar filled with angry drunks, claiming that he can take them all one by one. Both Norrington and Will lack a certain amount of Hubris. In this way, their tragic qualities mirror any Greek hero who has ever met his downfall. Eventually, the gods do get even.

Also, there are scenes in the rough draft script that suggest a certain parallel. They're both essentially good men who have lost their way. Norrington has become a pawn of Beckett in a sacrifice to regain his position of power, Will has sacrificed all that has made him good and noble to take his vengance against Jack.

So yes, Scruffington is interesting, and for more reasons than his supposed fate in the rough draft script. (I sincerely hope he doesn't snuff it, because he's one of the better characters).

my question here is...what would she have done had Jack remained silent?

She didnt look as if she was going to move..at all until he said something.

EDIT-sorry savvysparro I posted this before I realised you posted something *goes to read* 😄

Lovely what do you mean in your question?

chiki..I implied that Liz may have given in and unlocked him had he remained silent..but Jacks word seemed to prompt her to leave.

WOW Savvy..you know what!! everything you said there..EVERYTHING! makes so much sense to me. I study Classical Civilisations as well as Film studies..and its amazing how the two really to tie in together in terms of ancient greek literature and modern day film..even old films too..its all one basic pattern of story telling and character development.

That whole thing about hubris..i had to learn that too.

I agree the gods get even with characters like Will/Norrie..they make their destiny what it is due to their own actions and so they fully except it in the long run...Usually the character is very bold and does stupid things, too much arrogance..then the character does something dishonest and disrespectful to the gods (sometimes they know, sometimes they don't)

Oedipus keeps coming to mind when I think of Will and his Destiny..as does Hephaestus (cant spell lol)

Antigone (female based tragedy) I cant actually link in with Elizabeth and how her character behaves..she is very much the melodramatic character and not the tragic one.

Jack is also melodramatic in character.

I think she was waiting for him to denounce her actions. I think she was waiting for him to condemn her for essentially tricking him, but she got an unexpected answer. Pirate in this sense is meant from Jack as that he admired her all the more for her decision and the way in which she went about things. Jack admires a person who "does whatever is necessary". In this instance, the kiss and the treachery was necessary to save the life of the crew. But the fact that he didn't denounce her and was so willing to go to his death fuels her guilt and may actually hint to her his feelings. (As if his coming back to the Pearl wasn't enough).

And while we're on the subject of the kiss. Though Elizabeth and Will are very similar in nature, even more so now that his character is venturing into darker territory, I think there is a small, noticable difference in how it is they achieve their goals. While Elizabeth's kiss was motivated in part by selfish motivation, she does essentially have the best interests of the crew at heart. If you're of the mind that Elizabeth's greatest desire is Jack and not Will, that makes her decision all the more poignant. She's sacrificing what she wants most, for the good of the cause. (Not unlike Jack, who admits for the first time that the Pearl is 'only a ship'.)

In contrast, Will's greatest desire in DMC, above rescuing Elizabeth is to rescue his father. Yet, he is willing to sacrifice the crew of the Black Pearl and put them all in great danger to take on the Flying Dutchman. Even in AWE, he's willing to put the entire crew at risk to steal back the Pearl to save his father.

Just an interesting and different perspective on the matter of the kiss.

very interesting points^

but I just dont think the pearl is what he wants most anymore.(constatly his compass was pointing at Elizabeth and away from her then at her again..not the pearl)

I think he's actually giving up Elizabeth here(what he desires most) in order to do the honorable cause(stay behind so they can escape)

..look at his face when gibbs shouts "abandon ship or abandon hope" he looks very pained at the thought of Elizabeth leaving him.(after a long shot showing us that he's just staring at her)

He actually walks in the opposite diretion, when she chains him he's silent..clearly leaving the pearl was never his true intent.

I think Elizabeth realises this later on.

then this raises another question in my mind. What If Jack had told her that he was going to stay before she kissed him (un-jackish to say it aloud like Will does BTW)

Would the feelings we see after the betrayal in Tia's hut be evident in this scene instead? Would she have kissed him anyway?

I would say the answer to both is YEPPERS

but the kiss may have been different, It may not have been so lust filled...its like she was just getting all she could from Jack before she chained him there..before she "removed him" from her life..

That's what I was saying, or what I meant to say. Sometimes I don't always get down what I mean to say in the correct fashion. I was saying that at one time, the Pearl was the most important thing in his life and he's willing to abandon that now for Elizabeth. Actually, you're probably saying that this illustrates what a selfless character Jack can be at times, which is true. People say that he's such a rotten guy, but look at what he's willing to give up at times. He was avoiding Elizabeth and Port Royal at the beginning of the movie, I think out of respect for Will.

So...Jack calling her pirate is like a way to say leave< ill stay, I will do what you want me to? no no thats not it-Im wrong

But you think Liz was expecting Jack to be scared and loose his cool while she chained him up?

Now im not sure, but what seems to me Liz left him chained bc she was angry that Jack called her a pirate. And smiled during the process. Angry also that Jack could give her such temptation in making her lean in for another kiss. So if Jack wouldve said nothing, she would unchain him? Im not sure about this though, I think she wouldve chained him anyways bc of her growing feelings for jack. Its the only way she has to stay with Will.