Originally posted by peejayd
* even if i did say it, it is also Biblical... the Bible says God is a spirit (John 4:24), He is God from eternity to eternity (Psalms 90:2) and He cannot change (James 1:17)... i really am astounded that you cannot accept that fact...* the one spewing unbiblical doctrines is you, my friend... nowhere in the Bible that God is not a spirit and can change or have a physical body... if so, prove it according to the Bible... 😉
Biblical support for my stance that God has a physical form.
Genesis 1:26-27
26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
image
NOUN:
A reproduction of the form of a person or object, especially a sculptured likeness.
likeness
NOUN:
[list=1][*]The state, quality, or fact of being like; resemblance.
[*]An imitative appearance; a semblance.
[*]A pictorial, graphic, or sculptured representation of something; an image. [/list]
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An attack at the use of John 4:24 as delimiting God to only being a spirit.
Compare:
John 4:24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.1 John 4:16
16 ... God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.1 John 1:5
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
This shows exactly how John 4:24 should be interpreted.
Format of these verses: God's attribute cited -> God's expectation of us with regard to that attribute -> our reward for complying.
Now:
Luke 24:39
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.Hebrews 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Christ was/is the express image of God. How could this be if God is only a spirit?
* this is very nice, you've brought good points here, my friend... however, i still disagree...
Originally posted by Regret
[B]Biblical support for my stance that God has a physical form.Genesis 1:26-27
26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.image
NOUN:
A reproduction of the form of a person or object, especially a sculptured likeness.likeness
NOUN:The state, quality, or fact of being like; resemblance.
An imitative appearance; a semblance.
A pictorial, graphic, or sculptured representation of something; an image.
Man is the same form as God. Man is the same state, quality, and fact of being like God. Thus God does have a physical form, or at least the creation of Man states he does. [/B]
* it is not that simple to say that humans are created in the image of God, then conclude it by saying if humans have physical form, so is God... this is wrong, my friend...
Originally posted by Regret
[b]An attack at the use of John 4:24 as delimiting God to only being a spirit.Compare:
John 4:24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.1 John 4:16
16 ... God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.1 John 1:5
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.This shows exactly how John 4:24 should be interpreted.
Format of these verses: God's attribute cited -> God's expectation of us with regard to that attribute -> our reward for complying. [/B]
* the verses you gave never seem to even imply that the Father has physical form, my friend...
Originally posted by Regret
Now:Luke 24:39
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.Hebrews 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;Christ was/is the [b]express image
of God. How could this be if God is only a spirit? [/B]
* good question... how could Christ be the express image of God if God is only a spirit... simple, my friend... because Christ is also a spirit...
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:1
* in the beginning, Christ is the Word, and the Word is a spirit like God... how did Christ acquired a physical form?
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
I Timothy 3:16
* Christ, the Word, was manifested in the flesh... and to prove that, here:
"Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, Sacrifices and offerings thou hast not desired, but a body hast thou prepared for me;"
Hebrews 10:5
* the passage was very clear, my friend... when Christ came into the world, a body was prepared for Him by God...
* now, the missing question would be, if God and Christ are spirits, how come humans have physical form?
"Put off your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts,
And be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
And put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."
Ephesians 4:22-24
* humans are created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness... the being created by God is inside a man, not the physical form...
"And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day."
Genesis 1:31
* that's why when God had finished creating, His conclusion of His creation was very good...
* how about the physical form?
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Genesis 2:7
* the physical form of man was made from the dust of the ground... 😉
Originally posted by peejayd
* oh my... another long, boring and irrelevant posts...* you, my friend, are exposing your true colors - a hypocrite... just because you cannot refute the clear fact i post, you spew stupid things like i'm not born again, i'm not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, etc... you think you're perfect? heck, just refute my post! stop getting personal... we are discussing the our beliefs and here you are always getting personal... you know what? i believe, in the manner you reply to my posts, you are the one not indwelt by the Holy Spirit... you are blinded by the unbiblical doctrines you worship...
* you are way out of the logic's line, kiddo... read my posts very carefully, try to reach that fake spirit in you... the resurrection of Jesus is physical, and the one that died and resurrected was the body of Jesus...
"And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Hebrews 10:10* and because of that, Jesus clearly says a spirit does not have flesh and bones like the one the apostles are seeing... and what did the apostles saw? the physical body of Jesus... read Luke 24:39... now, humans have flesh and bones and since humans have this, humans are NOT spirits... if you have enough knowledge and wisdom given by your fake "holy" spirit, then i hope you understand the simple fact i was trying to tell you... your belief is stupid and stubborn...
* bingo! you hypocrite... that's my point and yet you still cling to your stupid stubborn belief? sheesh... hypocrites... sigh...
* oh, and what do we have here? it was the physical body that was not a spirit, because it has flesh and bones! oh, man... i really question your Biblical comprehension...
* sigh... i understand more than you think... and i understand the Bible more than you do...
* you just said, "your body is not the real you", kiddo... the three-fold nature comprises of the body, soul and spirit... you are ignorant of what you're saying... please compose yourself...
* and it is a violation according to the Bible... who are you to omit and replace words in the Bible? because you are born again? sigh... hypocrite... 😉
* oh my... another long, boring and irrelevant posts...
You are entitled to your opinion.
* you, my friend, are exposing your true colors - a hypocrite... just because you cannot refute the clear fact i post, you spew stupid things like i'm not born again, i'm not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, etc... you think you're perfect? heck, just refute my post! stop getting personal... we are discussing the our beliefs and here you are always getting personal... you know what? i believe, in the manner you reply to my posts, you are the one not indwelt by the Holy Spirit... you are blinded by the unbiblical doctrines you worship...
You are not born again. You are a natural man trying to expound the Bible but just like the foolish virgins you are devoid of the Teacher (i.e. the Holy Spirit). For this reason your understanding of the Sciptures is egregiously incorrect.
* you are way out of the logic's line, kiddo... read my posts very carefully, try to reach that fake spirit in you... the resurrection of Jesus is physical, and the one that died and resurrected was the body of Jesus...
May the Lord forgive you for you do not know what you are saying.
"And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Hebrews 10:10
* and because of that, Jesus clearly says a spirit does not have flesh and bones like the one the apostles are seeing... and what did the apostles saw? the physical body of Jesus... read Luke 24:39... now, humans have flesh and bones and since humans have this, humans are NOT spirits... if you have enough knowledge and wisdom given by your fake "holy" spirit, then i hope you understand the simple fact i was trying to tell you... your belief is stupid and stubborn...
He who is of God hears God's Words. You do not hear (i.e. understand) God's Word because you are not of God. You have a form of godliness but you deny the power thereof. You do not know Jesus (or rather Jesus christ does not know you).
* bingo! you hypocrite... that's my point and yet you still cling to your stupid stubborn belief? sheesh... hypocrites... sigh...
I am not backing down. I know what the bible teaches becusae I am indwelt by the Teacher (God the Holy Spirit). I am a spirit, I have a soul, and I live in a physical body. The body is the part of my three-fold nature that you can see. But on the inside of this earth-suit that I live in is the real me--a spirit, just like God! My spirit is the life fource as it were of my physical body. All human beings are spirits, have souls, and live in physical bodies. That is why when you die you do not skip a beat in terms of your consciousness. Your consciousness is uninterrupted at death and you have all of the same memories before death that you have at the time that you die.
* oh, and what do we have here? it was the physical body that was not a spirit, because it has flesh and bones! oh, man... i really question your Biblical comprehension...
There are no words in my extensive vocabulary to describe your situation relative the Bible in terms of your inability to rightly divide the Word of Truth other than to say that you are a natural man (i.e. you are not born again; therefore, you are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and thus you are not capable of understanding the Bible. You can read it, quote it, and analyze it--but you cannot (nor have you ever) rightly divided the issues and topic that we have discussed.
* sigh... i understand more than you think... and i understand the Bible more than you do...
You understand what it says (because you can read) but not what it means. You need the Holy Spirit to understand the Bible.
* you just said, "your body is not the real you", kiddo... the three-fold nature comprises of the body, soul and spirit... you are ignorant of what you're saying... please compose yourself...
Nowhere in the Bible is the three-fold nature of man worded in the order that you just worded it. You cannot even word mankind's nature in the correct order, this is indicative of the fact that you are a natural man (i.e. not born again) and the natural man is "body" conscious. There is a purpose and reason that underlies all that God does. 1 Thessalonians states,
1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The Holy Spirit inspired the apostle Paul to write spirit, soul, and body in this order for a reason. The reason is because just like God we are trluy spirits, but we have a soul. Now here is the part that you get fixated on. The part that talks about the body. The body is only the house that you live in--it is not the true essence of who you are. You are a spirit just like God. Folk who are not born again (as you are not) are body conscious that is why you listed the order (i.e. spirit, soul, body) in reverse order. People who are born again (i.e. saved, sanctified, and on their way to Heaven like me and certain others on and off this forum) we list the order the Bible way: spirit, soul, and body because we are more "spirit" conscious than "body" conscious.
* and it is a violation according to the Bible... who are you to omit and replace words in the Bible? because you are born again? sigh... hypocrite... 😉
I explained that I only did it to elucidate and illustrate my point, but I did not tell you to leave it that way in terms of you treating that example as doctrine.
Oh, and I am a person called and anointed by the Holy Spirit to teach the Word of God that is who I am.
Ephesians 4:11
And He Himself [i.e. Jesus Christ] gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
Part 1
Part 1
Originally posted by peejayd
* and that is a moot answer... anyone can say that Jesus is Lord but not all are worthy..."Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Matthew 7:21* i'm very shocked to see that someone who claims to have the Holy Spirit dwelling in him did not understand this verse...
* now, can you please give a Bible verse that tells us word-for-word that the Holy Spirit is God? or even a God? if you can't, sorry, your belief is unbiblical...
* this is stupid... a typical statement of a hypocrite...
"And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved."
Matthew 10:22* faith alone cannot save a person... that's why Saint Peter teaches us ways to supplement the faith... the true faith, not yours...
"For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,
And knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,
And godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.
For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."
II Peter 1:5-8* and God created the Christians in Christ to walk in those things...
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Ephesians 2:10* nobody is saved yet, stupid...
* i believe now that you really are a nutcase... i can say that by the grace of God, i WILL be saved... but now, nobody is saved yet... give proofs according to the Bible that there are saved persons NOW...
* wrong...
"By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he received approval as righteous, God bearing witness by accepting his gifts; he died, but through his faith he is still speaking.
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God.
And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, took heed and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; by this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness which comes by faith.
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.
For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised."
Hebrews 11:4-11* Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, etc... these people of God are not yet in heaven...
"These all died in faith, not having received what was promised, but having seen it and greeted it from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth."
Hebrews 11:13* see that?
"For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord."
For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first;
Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up [b]together with them
I Thessalonians 4:14-17* the ascension to heaven, together with those holy people who were dead, will occur when Christ returns...
* Enoch and Elijah was only translated, they are not in heaven yet (I Thessalonians 4:14-17)... Saint Paul was caught up to the third heaven spiritually... Saint Paul's spirit was caught up into the third heaven because he himself said here:
"I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."
I Corinthians 15:50* so, basically, your belief is a ruse and unbiblically so stop spewing judgments to other people... 😉 [/B]
* and that is a moot answer... anyone can say that Jesus is Lord but not all are worthy...
No, no one can say (and truly mean in their heart) that Jesus Chist is Lord except by the Holy Spirit (i.e. except by the indwelling, abiding presence and inward witness of this Truth by the Holy Spirit).
"Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Matthew 7:21
* i'm very shocked to see that someone who claims to have the Holy Spirit dwelling in him did not understand this verse...
No, not all are truly saved. Many people have never confessed Jesus Christ as Lord and asked Him into their heart/lives. But many people read the Bible, attend church, have gotten baptized, etc. In short, many people have done a lot of "religious" things without ever actually confessing the Lordship of Jesus Christ over their lives, trusting Him for salvation from sin. But Jesus does not know any of these people, He never knew them.
* now, can you please give a Bible verse that tells us word-for-word that the Holy Spirit is God? or even a God? if you can't, sorry, your belief is unbiblical...
I don't know that there are any Scriptures that say word-for- word, "hear ye, hear ye, the Holy Spirit is God." But there are a number of eternal truths that are not worded, "word-for-word" that are present Scripturally in principle and conceptually. For instance, there are many passages in the Bible that substantiate the truth of the Trinity even though the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. The word "rapture" is not phrased in the Bible either but the concept is interspersed in more than one Book of the bible.
* this is stupid... a typical statement of a hypocrite...
"And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved."
Matthew 10:22
This passage of Scripture is not talking about salvation from sin, for the Bible the Bible clearly reveals that by grace (i.e. God's mercy) we have been saved (past tense participle I believe peejayd which means that it is a done deal) i.e. from the wages of our sin--through faith (i.e. reliance and dependence upon Jesus Christ), and that not of ourselves (meaning that our salvation is not predicated on, is not based on, and definitely does not rest on nor has it been effected by--our good moral deeds, works, or lives). So having laid this premise, I will now build upon it. What Jesus Christ is saying in Matthew 10:22 has nothing in the world to do with salvation from sin. This verse is addressed to those who are being persecuted for their faith in Jesus and for preaching the gospel. Look at the context peejayd it is clearly talking about persecution for one's faith. It is in this vein that Jesus states that he/she who endures to the end (meaning even to the point of being executed for faith in Jesus Christ) will be saved. Those who retain their faith in Jesus Christ even to the point of death will be saved. Conversely, those who recant, disavow, or renounce their faith in Jesus even under intense persecution, suffering, and pain will not be saved. This is all that this verse means peejayd.
This is what it means to rightly divide the Word of truth peejayd.
* faith alone cannot save a person... that's why Saint Peter teaches us ways to supplement the faith... the true faith, not yours...
"For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,
And knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,
And godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.
For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."
II Peter 1:5-8
Peejayd, you don't recall me explaining what this verse means way back when? Let me see if I can locate our correspondence. Ah, here it is:
Part 2
Originally posted by peejayd
* we cannot say whether a person is going to heaven or hell, but one thing is for sure, God will never send a good person to hell...* salvation is not only by faith, my friend... that's why Saint Peter said to add these to your faith...
"But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge,
To knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,
To godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.
For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."
II Peter 1:5-8* the goodness and the evilness of a person is NOT something we should tackle because it is upon God's eyes to see who's good and who's evil...
* but my point is, if a person is good in the eyes of God, then that person is NOT going to hell... 😉
Buddy ole pal, Peter (the apostle) is referring to believers here not nonbelievers. Those who have confessed Christ Jesus as Lord must add to their faith those qualities/characteristics so that they will not be barren nor unfruitful. Unbelievers do not have any faith for salvation, so they are not able to add any of those qualities to their faith.
Did you catch that peejayd? We (those of us who are saved by trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation from our sins) are instructed by God to add to our faith those characteristics. But here is where you err. We are not enjoined to add those qualities to our faith in order to be saved (because we are already saved. Remember we have been saved, past tense). In addition, if we attempted to add those things to our faith in order to be saved, we would be trying to merit or earn salvation from sin. Did you soon forget? Epesians 2:8-9 states that we are not saved by our works lest anyone should boast. So then if this verse is not telling us to add those things to our faith in order to be saved, then why does the Holy Spirit through the apostle Peter direct us to add those things to our faith? I am glad that you asked. I will refer to my earlier post that I wrote to you for the answer to that question because the answer is already written.
Buddy ole pal, Peter (the apostle) is referring to believers here not nonbelievers. Those who have confessed Christ Jesus as Lord must add to their faith those qualities/characteristics so that they will not be barren nor unfruitful. Unbelievers do not have any faith for salvation, so they are not able to add any of those qualities to their faith.
Did you see that peejayd? We add these things to our faith so that we will neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ! (see 2 Peter 1:5-9).
* and God created the Christians in Christ to walk in those things...
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Ephesians 2:10
Hey, there goes that word beforehand supporting my position that God is omniscient and that He did in fact preplan to send Jesus to die for the sins of the world (just like the Bible teaches).
Oh, let me respond to this point of yours. Of course God prepared beforehand that believers should walk in good works, but walking in good works (for the purpose of letting our light so shine that other people may see our good works and glorify our Father in Heaven) and walking in goo works in order to be saved are two entirely different things. I believe that the Bible teaches the former and that you erroneously, and falsely teach the latter.
* nobody is saved yet, stupid...
I...thought...that we were not supposed to get personal peejayd? I simply told you that you were not born again and that you do not have the Holy Spirit abiding and dwelling on the inside of you and you accused me of getting personal. I have never read anywhere in the Bible where someone was called stupid. But I have read instances where people were in a situation of not being born again (e.g. Nicodemus and many other people who had not yet believed on Jesus christ for salvation from sin). Jesus disciples did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling on the inside of them either until after Jesus christ rose from the dead. Read:
John 14:17
the Spirit of Truth [i.e. the Holy Spirit], Whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
Did you catch that peejayd? In talking to His disciples Jesus said that the Spirit of Truth (i.e. the Holy Spirit) dwells with you and will be in you. This is a reference to being born again. The moment a person gets saved by faith in Jesus Christ for salvation from sin, the Holy Spirit regenerates their spirit (incidentally this supports what I have been saying all along, that we are spirits i.e. our true essence and nature is spirit just like God), not their body. It is the spirit part of man's three-fold nature that gets born again and subsequently (or should I say simultaneously because both events occur at the same time) indwelt by the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit (any designation will work in terms of describing the Holy Spirit).
* i believe now that you really are a nutcase... i can say that by the grace of God, i WILL be saved... but now, nobody is saved yet... give proofs according to the Bible that there are saved persons NOW...
Very well. The Bible standard is that in the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established. Here are some Scriptures that substantiate the fact that those who presently have faith in Jesus Christ are sanctified (i.e. set apart by God) and declared righteous by virtue of their faith in Jesus christ (not their works i.e. good moral lives). In short, that they are saved now by faith in Jesus Christ alone, apart from good works (i.e. good moral deeds).
Galatians 4:4-7
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Therefore you are no longer a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
Incidentally, peejayd, here is another Scipture that supports my position that God preplanned to send Jesus to die for the world's sin and that God is omniscient.
1 Corinthians 1:2
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 6:11
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Corinthians 15:2
2 By which also you are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
2 Corinthians 2:15
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
Ephesians 2:2, 5, 8
2 Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace you have been saved😉
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
We are saved (present tense peejayd).
2 Timothy 1:9
9 Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
More evidence of God's omniscience and preplanning peejayd.
Part 3
Titus 3:4-7
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;
6 Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;
7 That being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
1 Peter 1:18-21
18 Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
The Word of God is replete with Scriptures that incontrovertibly prove that Jesus was preordained to die for the sins of the world peejayd. This is just a side note.
1 Peter 4:18
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Hebrews 2:11
11 For both He that sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Hebrews 10:10, 29
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
14 For by one offering He has perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Jude 1:1
1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
We (those of us who trust in Jesus Christ for salvation from sin) are sanctified and preserved in Jesus Christ.
These are just some verses peejayd that prove that we (those of us who trust in Jesus Christ for salvation from sin) are saved now.
* wrong...
"By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he received approval as righteous, God bearing witness by accepting his gifts; he died, but through his faith he is still speaking.
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God.
And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, took heed and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; by this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness which comes by faith.
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.
For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised."
Hebrews 11:4-11
* Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, etc... these people of God are not yet in heaven...
"These all died in faith, not having received what was promised, but having seen it and greeted it from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth."
Hebrews 11:13
* see that?
"For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first;
Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord."
I Thessalonians 4:14-17
* the ascension to heaven, together with those holy people who were dead, will occur when Christ returns...
At the time that these paragons of faith (as I decide to call them at this juncture) died Jesus had not yet died for the sins of the world, So that is why it says that these all died in faith, not having received the promises. These men and women of faith were not permitted to dwell in New Jerusalem until after Jesus died and rose from the dead. Perhaps all of them were sent the paradise side of Hades (i.e. Hell) until Jesus Christ could release them from Hades with the keys of Hades and death. Perhaps Jesus preached the gospel (i.e. the good news) to them i.e. the spirits who were in prison (i.e. Hades or Hell). Then released them, thus bringing many sons to glory (i.e. Heaven). This why the Scriptures state,
Revelation 1:18
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
1 Peter 3:19
by whom also He [i.e. Jesus Christ] went and preached to the spirits in prison,
Hebrews 11:13-15, 39
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
So perhaps they did not receive the promise yet because Jesus had not died for the world's sin yet. But now I believe that those who died in faith are now in Heaven thanks to Jesus.
The catching away of the church (who is still alive when Jesus descends from Heaven with a shout) and those who have already died in Christ/faith, has to do with the resurrection and transformation of their/our bodies. You need to understand what death is for the believer peejayd. Death for us is described as being asleep because at some point in God's timetable we are going to receive new bodies. But the apostle Paul seems to indicate that a believer's spirit and soul go immediately into the presence of the Lord at death:
Philippians 1:21-25
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith,
Part 4
The apostle Paul appears to be somewhat ambivalent about his desire to leave his body and to join Christ in Heaven. But at the same time Paul feels that staying in his physical body on earth is more needful for believers in the church at Philippi. He knows that if he dies and goes to Heaven, that he will not be able any longer to minister to them. Paul's desire to stay in his flesh is offset by his desire to depart and be with Christ.
In the apostle Paul's second letter to the church at Corinth he says the following words,
2 Corinthians 5:6-9
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.
So when a believer in Christ Jesus dies their physical returns to the dust of the ground, but the soirit goes into the presence of the Lord. At the time of the catching away (aka. the rapture) the bodies of those spirits who are already in Heaven will become transformed. The spirits of the saved will be instantly reunited with their glorified, immortal, inccorruptible, resurrected body. they will rise from the dead first, then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
* Enoch and Elijah was only translated, they are not in heaven yet (I Thessalonians 4:14-17)... Saint Paul was caught up to the third heaven spiritually... Saint Paul's spirit was caught up into the third heaven because he himself said here:
Peejayd here is what it means to be translated :
translate
One entry found for translate.
Main Entry: trans•late
Pronunciation: tran(t)s-'lAt, tranz-; 'tran(t)s-"lAt, 'tranz-
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): trans•lat•ed; trans•lat•ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French translater, from Latin translatus (past participle of transferre to transfer, translate), from trans- + latus, past participle of ferre to carry -- more at TOLERATE, BEAR
transitive verb
1 a : to bear, remove, or change from one place, state, form, or appearance to another : TRANSFER, TRANSFORM <a country boy translated to the city> <translate ideas into action> b : to convey to heaven or to a nontemporal condition without death
"I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."
I Corinthians 15:50
I believe that Enoch and Elijah were translated to Heaven just as the Bible indicates.
It seems that you are deliberately rehashing topics that we both know that we do not concur on. We have already exhausted the whole flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God issue, but their is still a lack of concurrence on that matter.
* so, basically, your belief is a ruse and unbiblically so stop spewing judgments to other people... 😉
You are quick to accuse me of getingt persona (but without any proof of this just mere allegations)l you sure have done much to incriminate yourself. I have not ever called you stupid (which is what you have called me) nor have I accused you of trying to mislead people (as you have said about me) for that is what the word ruse means. You blame your lack of spiritual aptitude in terms of being able to understanding the Bible on me, but the problem originates with you.
Originally posted by peejaydIt is only a differing interpretation you present, not Biblical support. The verses you quote do not delimit God as only a Spirit, your interpretation of those verses is the delimiting factor. Can you admit this? It is only Man's interpretation that places God with or without a physical body, given only Biblical text as reference.
* this is very nice, you've brought good points here, my friend... however, i still disagree...* it is not that simple to say that humans are created in the image of God, then conclude it by saying if humans have physical form, so is God... this is wrong, my friend...
* the verses you gave never seem to even imply that the Father has physical form, my friend...
* good question... how could Christ be the express image of God if God is only a spirit... simple, my friend... because Christ is also a spirit...
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:1* in the beginning, Christ is the Word, and the Word is a spirit like God... how did Christ acquired a physical form?
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
I Timothy 3:16* Christ, the Word, was manifested in the flesh... and to prove that, here:
"Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, Sacrifices and offerings thou hast not desired, but a body hast thou prepared for me;"
Hebrews 10:5* the passage was very clear, my friend... when Christ came into the world, a body was prepared for Him by God...
* now, the missing question would be, if God and Christ are spirits, how come humans have physical form?
"Put off your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts,
And be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
And put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."
Ephesians 4:22-24* humans are created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness... the being created by God is inside a man, not the physical form...
"And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day."
Genesis 1:31* that's why when God had finished creating, His conclusion of His creation was very good...
* how about the physical form?
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Genesis 2:7* the physical form of man was made from the dust of the ground... 😉
Originally posted by Regret
It is only a differing interpretation you present, not Biblical support. The verses you quote do not delimit God as only a Spirit, your interpretation of those verses is the delimiting factor. Can you admit this? It is only Man's interpretation that places God with or without a physical body, given only Biblical text as reference.
* spirits according to Christ, have no flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)... however, humans have flesh and bones, so humans are not spirits... humans feel hunger approximately every 4 hours after a full meal and feel thirst approximately every hour depending on the climate... but the Father is God from eternity to eternity (Psalms 90:2), if God has physical body, don't you think he'll die from hunger and thirst?
* ironically, you - saying God has physical body - are the one who is delimiting God... physical body has limits, it can die and spirits don't die...
* if you believe that Christ was manifested in the flesh, then you should believe that Christ don't have flesh in His original state, right? because if Christ is only a mere human, He didn't have to be manifested in the flesh in the first place... 😉
* sigh... i think your best defense mechanism to spew things and say that a person is not born again and not indwelt by the Holy Spirit... that is your best defense nowadays when your faith is being questioned...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive I am not backing down. I know what the bible teaches becusae I am indwelt by the Teacher (God the Holy Spirit). I am a spirit, I have a soul, and I live in a physical body. The body is the part of my three-fold nature that you can see. But on the inside of this earth-suit that I live in is the real me--a spirit, just like God! My spirit is the life fource as it were of my physical body. All human beings are spirits, have souls, and live in physical bodies. That is why when you die you do not skip a beat in terms of your consciousness. Your consciousness is uninterrupted at death and you have all of the same memories before death that you have at the time that you die.
* yes, you're not backing down, i can see that... that's because you're very stubborn and egoistic... here, let me refresh you...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive Of course I understand that Jesus physical body is not spirit.
* here, on page 3, you blatantly admitted that Jesus' physical body is not a spirit... however, you still cling to your belief blindly... my point is simple: Jesus is talking about His physical body, and that body is not a spirit... we humans also have that kind of body, a physical body that comprises of flesh and bones! in which Jesus says it's not a spirit... oh man, please compose yourself...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive Nowhere in the Bible is the three-fold nature of man worded in the order that you just worded it. You cannot even word mankind's nature in the correct order, this is indicative of the fact that you are a natural man (i.e. not born again) and the natural man is "body" conscious. There is a purpose and reason that underlies all that God does.
* how about this?
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
Hebrews 4:12
* the word "soul" was written before "spirit"... does it mean that Saint Paul is not born again? not indwelt by the Holy Spirit? you're just a fault-finder, admit it...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive Oh, and I am a person called and anointed by the Holy Spirit to teach the Word of God that is who I am.
* i've never seen anyone as egoistic, stubborn and vain as you are... your claim is uber-unbiblical...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive No, no one can say (and truly mean in their heart) that Jesus Chist is Lord except by the Holy Spirit (i.e. except by the indwelling, abiding presence and inward witness of this Truth by the Holy Spirit).No, not all are truly saved. Many people have never confessed Jesus Christ as Lord and asked Him into their heart/lives. But many people read the Bible, attend church, have gotten baptized, etc. In short, many people have done a lot of "religious" things without ever actually confessing the Lordship of Jesus Christ over their lives, trusting Him for salvation from sin. But Jesus does not know any of these people, He never knew them.
* let me refresh your memory...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive No one can even say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
* again, on page 3, you said no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit...
* and here's the proof that you are the one who's not indwelt by the Holy Spirit... Matthew 7:21 says not everyone who says to Christ, "Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven... sorry, you're wrong...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive Buddy ole pal, Peter (the apostle) is referring to believers here not nonbelievers. Those who have confessed Christ Jesus as Lord must add to their faith those qualities/characteristics so that they will not be barren nor unfruitful. Unbelievers do not have any faith for salvation, so they are not able to add any of those qualities to their faith.Did you catch that peejayd? We (those of us who are saved by trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation from our sins) are instructed by God to add to our faith those characteristics. But here is where you err. We are not enjoined to add those qualities to our faith in order to be saved (because we are already saved. Remember we have been saved, past tense). In addition, if we attempted to add those things to our faith in order to be saved, we would be trying to merit or earn salvation from sin. Did you soon forget? Epesians 2:8-9 states that we are not saved by our works lest anyone should boast. So then if this verse is not telling us to add those things to our faith in order to be saved, then why does the Holy Spirit through the apostle Peter direct us to add those things to our faith? I am glad that you asked. I will refer to my earlier post that I wrote to you for the answer to that question because the answer is already written.
Buddy ole pal, Peter (the apostle) is referring to believers here not nonbelievers. Those who have confessed Christ Jesus as Lord must add to their faith those qualities/characteristics so that they will not be barren nor unfruitful. Unbelievers do not have any faith for salvation, so they are not able to add any of those qualities to their faith.
Did you see that peejayd? We add these things to our faith so that we will neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ! (see 2 Peter 1:5-9).
* you are blind... even believers, are not saved by believing or faith alone...
"So Jesus said, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority but speak thus as the Father taught me.
And he who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what is pleasing to him.
As he spoke thus, many believed in him."
John 8:28-30
* here, when Jesus preached, many people believed on Him... are those people who believed on Jesus already saved? let's proceed...
"Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples,
And you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32
* believing is not enough... people - both believers and non-believers - are not saved by faith alone... people have to CONTINUE abiding Jesus' word... and if they did not continue, then they will not be saved...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive I...thought...that we were not supposed to get personal peejayd? I simply told you that you were not born again and that you do not have the Holy Spirit abiding and dwelling on the inside of you and you accused me of getting personal. I have never read anywhere in the Bible where someone was called stupid. But I have read instances where people were in a situation of not being born again (e.g. Nicodemus and many other people who had not yet believed on Jesus christ for salvation from sin). Jesus disciples did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling on the inside of them either until after Jesus christ rose from the dead.
* here...
"O senseless Galatians, who has bewitched you; to whom, as before your very eyes, Jesus Christ has been portrayed, crucified among you?"
The Darby Translation
"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?"
The Revised Standard Version
Galatians 3:1
* still, nobody is saved yet... 😉
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive Very well. The Bible standard is that in the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established. Here are some Scriptures that substantiate the fact that those who presently have faith in Jesus Christ are sanctified (i.e. set apart by God) and declared righteous by virtue of their faith in Jesus christ (not their works i.e. good moral lives). In short, that they are saved now by faith in Jesus Christ alone, apart from good works (i.e. good moral deeds).
"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
I Corinthians 1:18
"Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
And by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain."
I Corinthians 15:1-2
* we are being saved but not yet saved completely... the truimph of salvation will come only when Christ returns...
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God--"
Ephesians 2:8
* stopping on this verse will mislead you... let us proceed...
"Not because of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Ephesians 2:9-10
* the works said by Saint Paul are not good works... because some people use their works for the intention of boasting... we are commanded to walk in good works...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive At the time that these paragons of faith (as I decide to call them at this juncture) died Jesus had not yet died for the sins of the world, So that is why it says that these all died in faith, not having received the promises. These men and women of faith were not permitted to dwell in New Jerusalem until after Jesus died and rose from the dead. Perhaps all of them were sent the paradise side of Hades (i.e. Hell) until Jesus Christ could release them from Hades with the keys of Hades and death. Perhaps Jesus preached the gospel (i.e. the good news) to them i.e. the spirits who were in prison (i.e. Hades or Hell). Then released them, thus bringing many sons to glory (i.e. Heaven).So perhaps they did not receive the promise yet because Jesus had not died for the world's sin yet. But now I believe that those who died in faith are now in Heaven thanks to Jesus.
The catching away of the church (who is still alive when Jesus descends from Heaven with a shout) and those who have already died in Christ/faith, has to do with the resurrection and transformation of their/our bodies. You need to understand what death is for the believer peejayd. Death for us is described as being asleep because at some point in God's timetable we are going to receive new bodies. But the apostle Paul seems to indicate that a believer's spirit and soul go immediately into the presence of the Lord at death:
* perhaps, perhaps, perhaps... so, you are not sure? really surprising for someone who claims to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit... hohoho...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive At the time that these paragons of faith (as I decide to call them at this juncture) died Jesus had not yet died for the sins of the world,
* wrong again...
"By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Hebrews 10:10
* the sacrifice of Christ for the salvation was ONCE FOR ALL... it includes the "paragons of faith" as you call them...
* and according to I Thessalonians 4:14-17, those who were alive until the return of Christ will be with Him together with those "paragons" who died in Christ...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive So when a believer in Christ Jesus dies their physical returns to the dust of the ground, but the soirit goes into the presence of the Lord. At the time of the catching away (aka. the rapture) the bodies of those spirits who are already in Heaven will become transformed. The spirits of the saved will be instantly reunited with their glorified, immortal, inccorruptible, resurrected body. they will rise from the dead first, then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
* the transformation from corruptible to incorruption will occur upon resurrection...
"I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.
When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."
I Corinthians 15:50-54
* that's why "Death is swallowed up in victory" because in the twinkling of an eye, all shall be changed upon resurrection, death would be nonsense...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive I believe that Enoch and Elijah were translated to Heaven just as the Bible indicates.
* and it is unbiblical...
"No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man."
John 3:13
* no one ascended into heaven, only Christ Jesus...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive It seems that you are deliberately rehashing topics that we both know that we do not concur on. We have already exhausted the whole flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God issue, but their is still a lack of concurrence on that matter.
* simple, Enoch and Elijah cannot be in heaven with God because Christ has not yet returned... plus, the transformation from corruptible to incorruption has not yet occurred because Christ has not yet returned...
"These all died in faith, not having received what was promised, but having seen it and greeted it from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth."
Hebrews 11:13
"For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first;
Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord."
I Thessalonians 4:14-17
* the verses are very clear... no man is in heaven now...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive You are quick to accuse me of getingt persona (but without any proof of this just mere allegations)l you sure have done much to incriminate yourself. I have not ever called you stupid (which is what you have called me) nor have I accused you of trying to mislead people (as you have said about me) for that is what the word ruse means.
* truth hurts, ain't it?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive You blame your lack of spiritual aptitude in terms of being able to understanding the Bible on me, but the problem originates with you.
* understanding the Bible? don't make me laugh... it is pretty obvious how you twist the Scriptures according to your unbiblical belief... even having people in heaven now, whereas Christ said no one ascended to heaven but Him... you are even contradicting Christ's words... try to accept the fact, your belief is a lie... 😉
Originally posted by peejayd
* sigh... i think your best defense mechanism to spew things and say that a person is not born again and not indwelt by the Holy Spirit... that is your best defense nowadays when your faith is being questioned...
But pal it seems that your best response is pure avoidance. You don't answer all of my points.
I find it strange that my replies are always detailed exposition of Scriptures and a complete point-by-point response to all of your arguments. But yours have failed to measure up to this minimum standard. I will not engage any longer in any more discourse with you because it seems that you pick and choose which points of mine to respond to. Then when you do respond, you do it with rehashed arguments (rarely anything new and able to corroborate what you propound). I am wasting volumes of information based on Scripture because you ignore some of my points and skirt the rest with rehashed points.
* yes, you're not backing down, i can see that... that's because you're very stubborn and egoistic... here, let me refresh you...
More attacks? Getting personal? I rest my case.
* here, on page 3, you blatantly admitted that Jesus' physical body is not a spirit... however, you still cling to your belief blindly... my point is simple: Jesus is talking about His physical body, and that body is not a spirit... we humans also have that kind of body, a physical body that comprises of flesh and bones! in which Jesus says it's not a spirit... oh man, please compose yourself...
* how about this?
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
Hebrews 4:12
* the word "soul" was written before "spirit"... does it mean that Saint Paul is not born again? not indwelt by the Holy Spirit? you're just a fault-finder, admit it...
The word soul in this verse was not written with regard to man's complete three-fold nature, that is what 1 Thessanlonians 5:23 is talking about.
* i've never seen anyone as egoistic, stubborn and vain as you are... your claim is uber-unbiblical...
Because I speak confidently about the things of God?
1 John 5:14
Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
1 John 5:13-15 (in Context) 1 John 5 (Whole Chapter)
You call it egotistical, stubborn, and vain. But the Bible calls it confidence. I will side with God.
* let me refresh your memory...
* again, on page 3, you said no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit...
* and here's the proof that you are the one who's not indwelt by the Holy Spirit... Matthew 7:21 says not everyone who says to Christ, "Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven... sorry, you're wrong...
* you are blind... even believers, are not saved by believing or faith alone...
"So Jesus said, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority but speak thus as the Father taught me.
And he who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what is pleasing to him.
As he spoke thus, many believed in him."
John 8:28-30
* here, when Jesus preached, many people believed on Him... are those people who believed on Jesus already saved? let's proceed...
"Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples,
And you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32
* believing is not enough... people - both believers and non-believers - are not saved by faith alone... people have to CONTINUE abiding Jesus' word... and if they did not continue, then they will not be saved...
* here...
"O senseless Galatians, who has bewitched you; to whom, as before your very eyes, Jesus Christ has been portrayed, crucified among you?"
The Darby Translation
Darby Translation?!? What do you do skim many different Bible versions until you find one that phrases verses in favor of what you believe? Besiides senseless and foolish are not the same as calling someone stupid, which is what you did. But I have not done so to you nor have I retaliated.
"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?"
The Revised Standard Version
Galatians 3:1
* still, nobody is saved yet... 😉
I am done providing Scripture after Scripture to you. I shake the dust off of my feet as it were in reference to dialoguing with you about the Bible. You lack basic, spiritual aptitude. I have provided rich teaching in clear, easy-yo-understand format and you still do not Get it. I have better things to do with my time. Besides there were many points that you did not address from my posts.
Originally posted by peejayd
"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
I Corinthians 1:18
"Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
And by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain."
I Corinthians 15:1-2
* we are being saved but not yet saved completely... the truimph of salvation will come only when Christ returns...
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God--"
Ephesians 2:8
* stopping on this verse will mislead you... let us proceed...
"Not because of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Ephesians 2:9-10
* the works said by Saint Paul are not good works... because some people use their works for the intention of boasting... we are commanded to walk in good works...
* perhaps, perhaps, perhaps... so, you are not sure? really surprising for someone who claims to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit... hohoho...
* wrong again...
"By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Hebrews 10:10
* the sacrifice of Christ for the salvation was ONCE FOR ALL... it includes the "paragons of faith" as you call them...
I said at the time that they died that is why they had not received the promises. You know what you cannot understand the Bible and I know why so I am done with talking to you about spiritual things until you get born again.
* and according to I Thessalonians 4:14-17, those who were alive until the return of Christ will be with Him together with those "paragons" who died in Christ...
* the transformation from corruptible to incorruption will occur upon resurrection...
"I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.
When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."
I Corinthians 15:50-54
* that's why "Death is swallowed up in victory" because in the twinkling of an eye, all shall be changed upon resurrection, death would be nonsense...
* and it is unbiblical...
"No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man."
John 3:13
* no one ascended into heaven, only Christ Jesus...
* simple, Enoch and Elijah cannot be in heaven with God because Christ has not yet returned... plus, the transformation from corruptible to incorruption has not yet occurred because Christ has not yet returned...
"These all died in faith, not having received what was promised, but having seen it and greeted it from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth."
Hebrews 11:13
"For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first;
Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord."
I Thessalonians 4:14-17
* the verses are very clear... no man is in heaven now...
* truth hurts, ain't it?
* understanding the Bible? don't make me laugh... it is pretty obvious how you twist the Scriptures according to your unbiblical belief... even having people in heaven now, whereas Christ said no one ascended to heaven but Him... you are even contradicting Christ's words... try to accept the fact, your belief is a lie... 😉
I am done.
Originally posted by peejaydChrist had to be sacrificed to satisfy justice, and thus allow man to return to God. Thus, he had to be manifested in the flesh, yes. The spirit does not die. Bible states the soul is the body and the spirit. Man is a soul. Man is a spirit and a body combined. Thus, "man is a spirit" is correct. Physical does not have limits in a perfect form, only in our imperfect physical form is it limited. You place limits on the physical body (i.e. hunger, death) by assuming it is perfect, God is perfect, man is not, thus God's body does not have the limitations that ours do.
* spirits according to Christ, have no flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)... however, humans have flesh and bones, so humans are not spirits... humans feel hunger approximately every 4 hours after a full meal and feel thirst approximately every hour depending on the climate... but the Father is God from eternity to eternity (Psalms 90:2), if God has physical body, don't you think he'll die from hunger and thirst?* ironically, you - saying God has physical body - are the one who is delimiting God... physical body has limits, it can die and spirits don't die...
* if you believe that Christ was manifested in the flesh, then you should believe that Christ don't have flesh in His original state, right? because if Christ is only a mere human, He didn't have to be manifested in the flesh in the first place... 😉
Originally posted by peejayd
* sigh... i think your best defense mechanism to spew things and say that a person is not born again and not indwelt by the Holy Spirit... that is your best defense nowadays when your faith is being questioned...* yes, you're not backing down, i can see that... that's because you're very stubborn and egoistic... here, let me refresh you...
* here, on page 3, you blatantly admitted that Jesus' physical body is not a spirit... however, you still cling to your belief blindly... my point is simple: Jesus is talking about His physical body, and that body is not a spirit... we humans also have that kind of body, a physical body that comprises of flesh and bones! in which Jesus says it's not a spirit... oh man, please compose yourself...
* how about this?
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
Hebrews 4:12* the word "soul" was written before "spirit"... does it mean that Saint Paul is not born again? not indwelt by the Holy Spirit? you're just a fault-finder, admit it...
* i've never seen anyone as egoistic, stubborn and vain as you are... your claim is uber-unbiblical...
* let me refresh your memory...
* again, on page 3, you said no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit...
* and here's the proof that you are the one who's not indwelt by the Holy Spirit... Matthew 7:21 says not everyone who says to Christ, "Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven... sorry, you're wrong...
* you are blind... even believers, are not saved by believing or faith alone...
"So Jesus said, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority but speak thus as the Father taught me.
And he who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what is pleasing to him.
As he spoke thus, many believed in him."
John 8:28-30* here, when Jesus preached, many people believed on Him... are those people who believed on Jesus already saved? let's proceed...
"Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, [b]If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples
,
And you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32* believing is not enough... people - both believers and non-believers - are not saved by faith alone... people have to CONTINUE abiding Jesus' word... and if they did not continue, then they will not be saved...
* here...
"O senseless Galatians, who has bewitched you; to whom, as before your very eyes, Jesus Christ has been portrayed, crucified among you?"
The Darby Translation"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?"
The Revised Standard Version
Galatians 3:1* still, nobody is saved yet... 😉 [/B]
I am done because I know beyond all doubt that I am talking to a natural man i.e. someone who is not born again. Never in all of my life have I provided such an abundance on Scirptue to anyone in rich, clear-cut, easy to understand format and in return received arguments that do not directly answer my points. Instead you rehash old views that are not corroborative in your points. This is a big waste of my time, not you, but this treatise as it were that I have labored intelligently to present as a refined lawyer in court. I am done with this dialogue. You cannot comprehend anything that I say (I can tell by how you reword my statements in preparation to respond to them). You are not capable of understanding my speech just like the Pharisees and Jews of Jesus day. I will end on this note. But I exhort you to get born again. Do you know what it means to get born again?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But pal it seems that your best response is pure avoidance. You don't answer all of my points.I find it strange that my replies are always detailed exposition of Scriptures and a complete point-by-point response to all of your arguments. But yours have failed to measure up to this minimum standard. I will not engage any longer in any more discourse with you because it seems that you pick and choose which points of mine to respond to. Then when you do respond, you do it with rehashed arguments (rarely anything new and able to corroborate what you propound). I am wasting volumes of information based on Scripture because you ignore some of my points and skirt the rest with rehashed points.
* i don't avoid any of your points... the fullness of your argument is tackled... my point is simply brief and concise, while yours, it took you 4 boring posts... but even with shorter posts compared to yours, ironically, you are the one who's giving senseless spewing... for example, your most recent post before this, it took you one long post just to say i'm not born again and not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, at the same time ignoring the points therein... you are the one who's ignoring my points, and when it contradicts your argument and proves your belief wrong, you will go to your favorite defense - i'm not born again and i'm not indwelt by the Holy Spirit... now that's a killer, now i lose...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
More attacks? Getting personal? I rest my case.
* you see, that's the problem with you... if i told you you're stubborn, egoistic, vain, etc... i'm not attacking you, i'm just frankly telling the truth...
* whilst, you telling me i'm not born again and not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, got proof? nope, the difference is that you have pre-concluded ideas by which you distort and twist the Scriptures according to your belief...
* me telling you you're stubborn, egoistic, vain, etc... got proof? yes, your posts... you can re-read it...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The word soul in this verse was not written with regard to man's complete three-fold nature, that is what 1 Thessanlonians 5:23 is talking about.
* soul, spirit and joints and marrow... the words are just different... it was written with regards to human's three-fold nature...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Because I speak confidently about the things of God?You call it egotistical, stubborn, and vain. But the Bible calls it confidence. I will side with God.
* the context is in these two verses:
"And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.
And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him."
I John 5:14-15
* the confidence in the verse is the requests Christians ask God in Christ's name... yours is way out of the line... even your boasting is unbiblical... you know a Biblical way of boasting? i'll teach you...
"In God we have boasted continually, and we will give thanks to thy name for ever."
Psalms 44:8
* the Biblical boasting is to praise and give thanks to God... so you're still egotistical, stubborn, and vain... it's the truth, learn to accept it...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Darby Translation?!? What do you do skim many different Bible versions until you find one that phrases verses in favor of what you believe?
* yes, Darby Translation... why? oh! i remember, it's because you're just inside the King James' box...
foolish–adjective 1. resulting from or showing a lack of sense; ill-considered; unwise: a foolish action, a foolish speech.
2. lacking forethought or caution.
3. trifling, insignificant, or paltry.—Synonyms 1, 2. senseless, vacant, vapid, simple, witless. Foolish, fatuous, silly, inane, stupid, asinine imply weakness of intellect and lack of judgment. Foolish implies lack of common sense or good judgment or, sometimes, weakness of mind: a foolish decision; The child seems foolish. Fatuous implies being not only foolish, dull, and vacant in mind, but complacent and highly self-satisfied as well: fatuous and self-important; fatuous answers. Silly denotes extreme and conspicuous foolishness; it may also refer to pointlessness of jokes, remarks, etc.: silly and senseless behavior; a perfectly silly statement. Inane applies to silliness that is notably lacking in content, sense, or point: inane questions that leave one no reply. Stupid implies natural slowness or dullness of intellect, or, sometimes, a benumbed or dazed state of mind; it is also used to mean foolish or silly: well-meaning but stupid; rendered stupid by a blow; It is stupid to do such a thing. Asinine originally meant like an ass; it applies to witlessly stupid conversation or conduct and suggests a lack of social grace or perception: He failed to notice the reaction to his asinine remarks. 1. imprudent, unreasonable, foolhardy, irrational; thoughtless, nonsensical, ridiculous, absurd, pointless, preposterous.
* http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/foolish
* try to get out of the box, King James Version is a good translation but it's NOT the ONLY translation and it is not perfect...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Besiides senseless and foolish are not the same as calling someone stupid, which is what you did. But I have not done so to you nor have I retaliated.
"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?"
Galatians 3:1
King James Version
* even in the King James Version, it says "foolish"... and in the dictionary, "foolish" and "senseless" are synonymous, which proves the Darby Translation is correct in that verse... plus, the dictionary also says the "foolish" and "stupid" are also synonymous...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I am done providing Scripture after Scripture to you. I shake the dust off of my feet as it were in reference to dialoguing with you about the Bible. You lack basic, spiritual aptitude. I have provided rich teaching in clear, easy-yo-understand format and you still do not Get it. I have better things to do with my time. Besides there were many points that you did not address from my posts.
* the fullness of salvation - according to the Bible, which you continually ignore and cannot refute - is when the people of God are caught up in the air with Christ, death is swallowed up in victory... it is the ultimate triumph...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I said at the time that they died that is why they had not received the promises.
* don't get my point, again? the body of Christ was offered ONCE FOR ALL... "all" includes the people of God who died in the Old Testament...
* and according to I Thessalonians 4:14-17, those who were alive shall be caught up in the cloud to meet Christ in the air TOGETHER WITH those who died in Christ... can't you see that?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I am done.
* fine...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I am done because I know beyond all doubt that I am talking to a natural man i.e. someone who is not born again. Never in all of my life have I provided such an abundance on Scirptue to anyone in rich, clear-cut, easy to understand format and in return received arguments that do not directly answer my points. Instead you rehash old views that are not corroborative in your points. This is a big waste of my time, not you, but this treatise as it were that I have labored intelligently to present as a refined lawyer in court. I am done with this dialogue. You cannot comprehend anything that I say (I can tell by how you reword my statements in preparation to respond to them). You are not capable of understanding my speech just like the Pharisees and Jews of Jesus day. I will end on this note.
* yes, you provided ample amounts of Bible verse... only, misinterpreted, so it has no gravity...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But I exhort you to get born again. Do you know what it means to get born again?
* according to the Bible, i know... do you? are you sure you are? i really doubt... 😉