Let's talk about Sodom and Gomorrha.

Started by FeceMan9 pages

Hehe, I just made an even more in-depth summary of Sodom and Gomorrah. I'll post it here (I'm quite pleased with myself for making the ignorant learned).

For starters, I'll post the story so no one has to look it up.

Genesis 19:3-11

[Removed for space limitations on KMC.]

Genesis 19:24-25

"Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground."

Summation of the story:

Two angels come down to see if Sodom and Gomorrah deserved destruction. Lot finds them and invites them to his house. The men of the city find out and gather 'round, as they want to "know them (sexually)." Lot says "no, take my virgin daughters instead," but the crowd of men insist on taking the two angels. Angels get fed up and blind the men, destruction and ruin follow.

Traditionally, this story has been viewed as a condemnation of homosexuality. Unfortunately, this traditional interpretation of the story goes against Scripture and is blatantly wrong--and it has been purposely misinterpreted to support the beliefs that homosexuality is wrong. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah, however, has absolutely little to do with homosexuality.

First of all, let us reason, and then we will move into Scripture.

Now, let us consider the possibility that God smote the city for homosexuality. That is, all the men in the city were homosexuals. Does this make sense? All these men, from youth to the elderly, being homosexual. And they were clearly consumed only with going after their own lusts.

How in the world would the population have flourished? How in the world would every single male in the city be a homosexual? How would they have wives and children? Certainly, they could have said, "Let us take wives for ourselves that our seed would be passed on," but that is highly unlikely, and it doesn't explain how every single male in the city would have been homosexual (as homosexual men may have heterosexual children).

This, of course, does not negate the possibility of bisexuality or the possibility that perhaps the men of Sodom and Gomorrah simply chased after their lusts in both men and women. We can only make assumptions based off of what the Bible says about Sodom and Gomorrah--so we must turn to Scripture for further evidence.

Jude 1:7

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Jude verifies that sexual sin was indeed one of the reasons that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. In fact, looking only at his writing, one might believe that this supports the case that sexual perversity--perhaps even homosexuality--was the reason that the cities were destroyed. However, notice that he uses the phrase "strange flesh" to describe another sin of Sodom and Gomorrah.

First, let us deal with the "giving themselves over to fornication." Fornication is not exclusive to homosexuals, as one ought to know. Fornication is "voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other." Thus, this immediately casts doubt onto the theory that homosexuality was Sodom and Gomorrah's sin. There is no way to say truthfully that the fornication of which Jude writes is exclusively male-to-male sexual intercourse.

Now, onto "strange flesh." Jude doesn't say "same flesh"; he says "strange flesh." Strange. As in, foreign. Not from around these parts. Despite our modesty as humans, men don't have "strange flesh." We all have pretty much the same bodies, and it's not hard for us to point out what is what on the male (or even female) anatomy. Therefore, this separate sin of going after "strange flesh" indicates that the men of Sodom and Gomorrah were going after flesh not known to them--and the only flesh not from "around these parts" would be the bodies of the angels themselves.

One might argue that "strange flesh" could mean that they were having sex with other men, as most of the male population have sex with females. To have sex with another male would be going after "strange flesh"; however, this argument is much weaker than the idea that "going after strange flesh" refers to the men wanting to rape heavenly beings.

Jeremiah 23:14

"I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah."

Jeremiah says that the sins of Jerusalem are like those of Sodom and Gomorrah. What are their sins?

1. Adultery. Extramarital sexual intercourse.
2. Walking in lies. They are deceivers and liars. Clarification of this phrase follows...
3. They help out those who commit evil deeds.
4. They encourage wickedness--no one who has done wrong will return to righteousness because of their helping out the wicked.

No mention of men lying with men here.

Ezekial 16:49-50

"Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good."

Ezekiel lists the sins of Sodom.

1. Pride.
2. "Fulness of bread" [sic]. I'm honestly not sure what this means. It might mean gluttony, or it might mean riches, tying into sin number four.
3. "Abundance of idleness": sloth, again, possibly tying into sin number 4.
4. Here's a big one: not strengthening "the hand of the poor and needy." Callousness towards the needs of others and instead choosing to aid those who have done evil, as written by Jeremiah.
5. Arrogance.
6. "Comitting abomination." This is the only part that can be traced back to homosexuality, as written in the Law.

However, let's look at examples of abomination in the Bible.

Exodus 8:26

"And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians to the LORD our God: lo, shall we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, and will they not stone us?"

This "abomination" is referring to the sacred animals of the Egyptians, hence their stoning--namely the lamb. Genesis 46:34 says, "[E]very shepherd is an abomination unto the Egyptians." This supports that the "abomination of the Egyptians" means that Moses was talking about sacrificing a lamb--i.e., sacrificing one of their false deities--to God. So, the worship of false gods is an abomination.

Leviticus 11:12

"Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you."

Lobsters are an abomination. Check.

Leviticus 11:13

"And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray."

Eagles are an abomination. Check.

Leviticus 11:42

"Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination."

Snakes and centipedes are abomnations. Check.

Leviticus 18:22

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Gay sex is an abomination. Check.

Leviticus 18:26

"Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you."

Incest, sex with anyone in the immediate family (even by marriage), sex while a woman is menstruating, ejaculating in a pagan ritual to Molech, and bestiality are all abominations. Check, check, check, check, and check.

Deuteronomy 7:25

"The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therin: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God."

Materials used in creating idols are an abomination. Check.

Sensing a pattern here? Abomination is used, a lot, and it doesn't just refer to sex. Sodom and Gomorrah could have been worshiping false gods, having incestuous relations, having sex with animals, and a whole lot more--thus, "committing abomination" does not indicate homosexual intercourse.

Because of all of this evidence in the Bible itself that Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed because of homosexuality, it is wrong, both factually and morally--warping the Scripture and whatnot--to say that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexuality. No, Sodom and Gomorrah were annihilated for a variety of sins, the final straw being that they were going to rape the "sons of God."

Originally posted by FeceMan
Hehe, I just made an even more in-depth summary of Sodom and Gomorrah. I'll post it here (I'm quite pleased with myself for making the ignorant learned).

That's an interesting interpretation, and I'll readily agree with you that homosexuality wasn't the sole reason for the destruction of Sodom, but at the same time how does your interpratation of the events in any way shape or form justify homosexual behavior as not being "sinful"?

Well, obviously it does not, however, it is obviously a minor cause the schemes of things if it was a motivation.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Well, obviously it does not, however, it is obviously a minor cause the schemes of things if it was a motivation.

Hey bud. Long time no see. Yeah I agree with you. I just want to get Feceman's opinion of why this event proves it not to be a sin. I've seen him post of it as not being a sin in other threads.

Originally posted by Thundar
That's an interesting interpretation, and I'll readily agree with you that homosexuality wasn't the sole reason for the destruction of Sodom, but at the same time how does your interpratation of the events in any way shape or form justify homosexual behavior as not being "sinful"?

No, that's a whole other issue.

Originally posted by FeceMan
No, that's a whole other issue.

Okay, but what about homosexual attraction? Is it sinful? Don't worry I won't get all Marchello on you, regardless of your answer..😉

Originally posted by Thundar
Okay, but what about homosexual attraction? Is it sinful? Don't worry I won't get all Marchello on you, regardless of your answer..😉

No, homosexual attraction isn't sinful despite one's view on homosexuality and Christianity.

Originally posted by FeceMan
No, homosexual attraction isn't sinful despite one's view on homosexuality and Christianity.

Okay, well I respect your view on this. That being said, what are your views on pedophilic, necrophilic, and sexually oriented bestial attractions, are those sinful?

Originally posted by Thundar
Okay, well I respect your view on this. That being said, what are your views on pedophilic, necrophilic, and sexually oriented bestial attractions, are those sinful?

No, the attraction itself is not sinful.

Originally posted by FeceMan
No, the attraction itself is not sinful.

Okay gotcha. Bear with me now. I haven't reached Marchello level yet.😉

Okay a few more questions for you..

Is having an attraction to something a type of action?

And if an individual harbors an attraction to commiting sexual sins, or any sin for that matter -- are they not commiting a sin?

Originally posted by Thundar
Is having an attraction to something a type of action?

An involuntary one.
And if an individual harbors an attraction to commiting sexual sins, or any sin for that matter -- are they not commiting a sin?

If that's the case, then I'm a murderer, thief, and worse. Now, I don't believe the attraction is sinful, but the thoughts stemming from the attraction are.

Originally posted by FeceMan
An involuntary one.

If that's the case, then I'm a murderer, thief, and worse. Now, I don't believe the attraction is sinful, but the thoughts stemming from the attraction are.

Matthew 15:19-20;
19 For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings:

20 these are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not the man.

Matthew 5:27-28
27. You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.'

28. But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already commited adultery with her in his heart.

So the sin action actually begins in the heart, not with the actual physical act. This is why even Job, the most righteous man on earth during his time - still commited the act of sin. He like all of us, harbored sinful thoughts, despite having not acted upon the thoughts, or not having sinned with "his lips."

Only two individuals within this life did not harbor or possess sinful thoughts. The first was Adam, and the second was Jesus.

The harboring part of sinning is the only part where individual interpretation can come into play. Personally, I think the harboring aspect of sin is a bit different for each person, as only God knows exactly when a person has harbored sinful attraction long enough for them to have commited an offense against him.

Despite it all, I am of firm belief that most sin we've commited can be forgiven - so long as we have earnestly repented of it. It's important as Christians though, that we all know distinctively what sin is, and inform each other when we've commited sin, so as not to get ourselves involved in the complicated spiritual warfare and confusion that commiting sin entails.

Thoughts, not innate reactions.

Sorry, but involuntarily getting a hard-on when one sees a corpse isn't wrong.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Thoughts, not innate reactions.

Sorry, but involuntarily getting a hard-on when one sees a corpse isn't wrong.

Umm. Yeah it is. Getting a hard-on from a corpse is definitely sinful, as it takes awhile to harbor sinful thoughts that lead to the hard on. I'd hardly(no pun intended) call any action that precipitated those thoughts involuntary.

The only time I think we could argue that such a behavior was involuntary is if a person were dreaming about such a vile act, and they woke up with an erection.

Even in such situation like this though, I believe that God could only excuse a person of not commiting a sin for possessing such thoughts, if they had not harbored any thoughts about such actions immediately before hand.

So say for example the Devil decided to prove a point to God about you being a hypocritical sinner, and planted a thought in your head while you were asleep about having sex with a corpse. If you had never really had thoughts about such an action before, then you wouldn't have commited any sin, because you never harbored the thoughts -- they were just planted in your head during a vulnerable time, a time in which you had little ability to control them.

Now if you looked at necro-porn right before you went to bed and then had the dream about having sex with a corpse, then yeah -- its definitely your fault, not the Devil's for planting and harboring those sinful thoughts within your head.

Just wanted to highlight this verse again to further clarify the position I presented --

Matthew 15:19-20;
19 For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings:

So the "thought" or "attraction" of homosexuality is in itself defined by God as being evil, however, a man only begins to commit an evil action or sin against God with such thoughts/attractions when he harbors them.

One kind of gets in dangerous territory when they start describing evil as involuntary. It's important to remember that evil exists apart from one's ability to be influenced by it, and this existence is not solely dependant upon whether or not we participate in it.

Originally posted by Thundar
Just wanted to highlight this verse again to further clarify the position I presented --

Matthew 15:19-20;
19 For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings:

So the "thought" or "attraction" of homosexuality is in itself defined by God as being evil, however, a man only begins to commit an evil action or sin against God with such thoughts/attractions when he harbors them.

One kind of gets in dangerous territory when they start describing evil as involuntary. It's important to remember that evil exists apart from one's ability to be influenced by it, and this existence is not solely dependant upon whether or not we participate in it.

Aren't you a homosexual Whob ? One who denies his natural desires ? I feel bad 4 u 🙁

Originally posted by Thundar
Umm. Yeah it is. Getting a hard-on from a corpse is definitely sinful, as it takes awhile to harbor sinful thoughts that lead to the hard on. I'd hardly(no pun intended) call any action that precipitated those thoughts involuntary.

All those 13-year-old boys who suddenly find themselves having to shift their books when a girl walks by them disagree.
Matthew 15:19-20;
19 For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings:

So the "thought" or "attraction" of homosexuality is in itself defined by God as being evil, however, a man only begins to commit an evil action or sin against God with such thoughts/attractions when he harbors them.


Thought != attraction. Attraction occurs involuntarily.

Originally posted by FeceMan
All those 13-year-old boys who suddenly find themselves having to shift their books when a girl walks by them disagree.

Thought != attraction. Attraction occurs involuntarily.

Natural attractions/thoughts are involuntary. Homosexuality is biblically defined as an unnatural behavior in relation to what God defines natural and good behavior to be.

Please understand though that no form of evil is involuntary. Evil is always performed as a concious action against God, and it is either performed or impressed upon an individual by an evil spirit, or at some point - an individual has themself engaged in evil behavior that has caused their body to harbor evil thoughts and/or unnatural attractions.

what we talking bought

Originally posted by Thundar
Natural attractions/thoughts are involuntary. Homosexuality is biblically defined as an unnatural behavior in relation to what God defines natural and good behavior to be.

Please understand though that no form of evil is involuntary. Evil is always performed as a concious action against God, and it is either performed or impressed upon an individual by an evil spirit, or at some point - an individual has themself engaged in evil behavior that has caused their body to harbor evil thoughts and/or unnatural attractions.


Homosexuality isn't a choice, and it does occur in nature. It might be aberrant, but it is natural.