Billie Jean is the shit..so is "Beat it"..also "human nature"..I love his album before Theriller: "Off The Wall". You know "Rock with you" "Dont stop till you get enough" 😄
great stuff..that was when he was sticking to his muscial roots before he crossed over into pop..and I'm blabbing on and on here
😂
***BEFORE YOU READ THIS, KNOW THAT I HAVEN'T READ ANYTHING THAT YOU GUYS WROTE ON THE LAST 3 PAGES***
It is a love triangle because Liz is in love with Jack. Her mind doesn't want her to believe that--her mind wants her to believe that she's in love with Will---BUT SHE'S NOT!!!! seriously, liz, sort out your priorities!! put the most important ones FIRST (JACK ALL THE WAY) put the retarted ones LAST (WILL ALL THE FRIGGIN WAY!)
yeah i dont know if anyone has posted the info yet, but here are the quotes:
http://www.wordplayer.com/forums/moviesarc07/index.cgi?read=85939
Quote:
1. There is no triangle, unless you are referring to the thing Elizabeth wanted most at one point being the chest, and at another point being Jack.
2. At no time did Jack was wibbling about Elizabeth, or vice-versa.
3. If you think Jack using Will as leverage to serve his own interests, or Will taking action against Jack to save a loved one, is a perversion of their relationship in the first movie, then that's what you think.
4. Jack was never enamored of his ship; he was and is enamored of what his ship represents: freedom. And, of course, as it turned out the very thing he wanted so much he was willing to make a deal with the devil to get, has come to represent either a hundred years of servitude (and eventual loss of identity) or death.
Why, it's almost as if Jack claimed the thing he wanted most in the world at the eventual cost of his own freedom. Hm ... I wonder if that idea might be relevant to some other part of the movie? Reflected, refracted and explored throughout the movie, even? Demonstrated in action and dialogue, or even overtly referenced at points?
5. Your suggestion that the story requires a Will/Jack pairing to resolve the triangle presumes there is a triangle to be resolved.
and:
http://www.wordplayer.com/forums/moviesarc07/index.cgi?read=88327
Quote:
If a story like this is done properly, which is to say if a love triangle is done properly, then, yes, there SHOULD be a division of the fans, because that proves that both sides of the triangle play as legit. (For you Jack Davenport fans, that would be a pyramid).
The way it (ideally) would (then) play out is, as the events of the third movie come to a climax, those events further inform the fans as to the most correct choice, so by the very end, half of the fandom has changed their minds, and come to agree with and join the other half -- and so no one is disappointed.
So, what does this insinuate? It says that Elizabeth has already made her choice at the end of DMC, but what is that choice? It's not so cut and dry is it? She chose to rescue the crew and subsequently Will in the process, but at what cost? She destroyed that relationship or at least did permanent damage.
They've made it very clear at least, what Jack's choice was 🙂 And I was right about his seemingly being chained to the Black Pearl, both literally and figuratively in DMC. On another thread we were discussing Jack's luck. He made a deal with Davy Jones to be Captain for thirteen years. So his lack of good luck and misfortunes probably have more to do with his meeting with Jones. So, the question is, will his decision to sell his soul to the devil impact his life in AWE? Does that also involve whether or not he and Elizabeth could feasibly be together?
LovelyOne, if, if, if....
If doesn't count in this world. Sorry, but to say that IF this hadn't happened, or IF that had, things would have been different is one of the silliest arguments I have ever seen.
Sure, if Will hadn't been there, there'd be no medallion, there'd be no way to stop the pirates, so therefore, the plot would have had to be completely altered to fit with that idea.
IF does not apply in this world.
calypso:
I agree with you about Norrington loving Elizabeth for her. Some people believe that he only saw her as a proper young lady, but I don't think so...he knew she was spirited, and I am guessing that is a huge part of his attraction to her. She is the perfect woman for him, and I think that she could have learned to love him. But as I said, "IF" has no place in this movie...
Will is a great character, and most of the hatred I see directed at him is because he is the main threat to Jack/Elizabeth...I've said it before, and I'll say it again....
When your ship depends solely on the disappearance or death of a main character (and Will is a main character, despite how much may try to disagree), then perhaps it is time to rethink your theories. J/E will NEVER work without Will being gone.
And I don't believe the spoiler about Will becoming DJ, and just sailing off, happy to let Liz be with Jack. That doesn't even make sense.
And I want to know how in the world any of you think that Elizabeth kissing Jack is so insurmountable a problem for her and Will, when she actually KILLED Jack. Yeah, he didn't scream for help, but that's how Jack is. He lets people make their own choices, and doesn't get angry about it. But I'm not sure that necessarily means he's going to be all lovey with the person who killed him. You know? That's sort of an even bigger "bump" in the road than a kiss...how would he be able to trust her again?
In fact, answer me this....What exactly do you see for Jack and Elizabeth, if they DO end up together? Assuming that the age of piracy ends, what in the world do you think will happen to them? Where will they go? What will they do? They have to find a place in the New World or perish, remember?
Surreal, in answer to your last questions.
1. that line came from sleazy beckett, so it doesnt have to be entirely true. He's captain Jack Sparrow, savvy?
and jack and liz's future looks about as stable as will and liz's. cause will is an outlaw too at this point. so why would a future with him be any more stable than a future with Jack?
oh, and btw, she didnt kill jack. the kraken did. 😄
Wait, wait, wait. Let's get down to brass tacks and look at what it is the writers have told us. Ted was annoyed with the guy that wrote this huge long essay about how crappy the love triangle was, so I'm assuming that in his anger he was being very straightforward in his answers.
And I have to disagree with you surreal. I'm sorry, because we ordinarily see eye to eye in a strange sort of way. The J/E ship is not necessarily dependant upon Will disappearing or dying. Granted, it would make things a lot less complicated for our side if he did. The same could be said if Jack were to suddenly snuff it in AWE, again, for W/E.
Will's behavior you have admitted before has been terribly rash. He's made some rash assumptions about Jack's culpability in the J/E relationship that are not necessarily true. His fiancee is not necessarily the innocent. His attempts to murder Jack, and the extremes he is willing to go to steal the Pearl to rescue his father, I believe, will result in consequences that may in fact be too terrible for Will to comprehend. He's a darker character in AWE, but he's still at a heart a very good man with a strong moral fiber. When he finds out why it is that Elizabeth kissed Jack, he may not be able to live with his choices that were made out of jealousy, hence bringing him to the conclusion that he and Elizabeth are perhaps not necessarily from the same mold.
It's stated in the AWE script that Will firmly believes that Jack is a man with no heart. Yet, all of Jack's choices thus far have subversively shown that he does have a heart. If he sees that Jack truly does care for Elizabeth, and or vice versa, and more importantly he realizes that his own choices have driven them further apart, he may chose to step aside. I see Will as doing something inherrently noble like that.
So in a way, his dying would almost be a blessing in that it saves us, the audience from watching him make some rather gut wrenching decisions that are more painful to us, knowing that he'll have to live with them for the rest of his life.
(Though I have to admit Surreal, and I could also see Jack doing the same thing.)
Originally posted by katelovespirateit's like he's talking about me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yeah i dont know if anyone has posted the info yet, but here are the quotes:http://www.wordplayer.com/forums/moviesarc07/index.cgi?read=88327
Quote:
If a story like this is done properly, which is to say if a love triangle is done properly, then, yes, there SHOULD be a division of the fans, because that proves that both sides of the triangle play as legit. (For you Jack Davenport fans, that would be a pyramid).
wibbling<<< Is that even a word?
1. There is no triangle, unless you are referring to the thing Elizabeth wanted most at one point being the chest, and at another point being Jack.
See now that explains it..Its Jack no?
and the frigging blockage was not what he was standing on the blockage was the thing hiding the Dutchman IMO..cuz we actually see that Davy is hiding behind it and Will is over there to the N/E..Terry said we learn something Liz doesn't directly after her lines..well we don't learn Will is behind the sand dune..we do however learn that Davy is being blocked from her view and this means Will is too.
they were in the shape of a triangle and it pointed at Jack.
---------------------
Now I'm going to explain Liz and her choice to you. Her final choice in DMC before the movie ends is JACK SPARROW and not Will Turner Jack is her main priority and nit Will. ..that is her final choice on the matter, case closed.
even if it doesn't end that way in AWE..her heart belongs to Jack.
Firstly lets consider what Naomi Harris says about her character in that interview on youtube "she has the ability to look through people into their hearts and true desires"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CejABfbOCxg
She is the supernatural mentor in the story. When the hero or heroine first meets her its only after this does their quest really start. their true quest where they really belong..it starts AFTER they meet this person..Liz ONLY meets her at the end savvy?
1. Ordinary World -will..she's thrust into the special world of Jack rather unprepared and feeling out of place and afraid of her feelings for Jack
2. Call to Adventure - Jack comes back for her *be with me) "pirate" liz actually shakes her head in a no.
3. Refusal of the Call - refuses Jack
4. Meeting With the Mentor/supernatural helper - Tia
5. Crossing the First Threshold
He/she fully enters the special world of his/her story for the first time.
This is the moment at which the story takes off and the adventure
gets going. The balloon goes up, the romance begins, the plane or
spaceship blasts off, the wagon train gets rolling. Dorothy sets
out on the Yellow Brick Road. The hero/heroine is now committed to his
journey... and there's no turning back.
6. Tests, Allies, Enemies
7. Approach
8. Supreme Ordeal
9. Reward
10. The Road Back
11. Resurrection
12. Return With the Elixir
I notice Tia knows what each character wants MOST and then she sorta secretly helps them get that instead of what they claim to be looking for...Jack/Will go to her for help, Jack wants to find the heart to save himself, Will wants to save Liz..Liz actually has Will with her when she meets the mentor which is the big thing here.
Tia knows that Will's heart lies with his dad and she helps him on his way..when he meets his dad he accepts the first threshold no? he swears to protect his father and stab the heart..
Tia knows Jack is falling for Elizabeth and thats why his compass is not working for him she gives him jar of dirt..and this does not help him with the heart at all does it? It doesn't keep davy or the kraken away either...after he leaves tia he crosses the first threshold..ELIZABETH is in his life. and he willingly take her on board after actively running away from her...the jar of dirt actually comes in later as a final push for Jack's development.
Now Liz has the whelp with her in the scene so the choice is made on the spot in the hut rather than her going and then crossing the threshold which is Jack..she decides to cross that threshold in the hut...she's given the chance to drink away the pain of Jack being gone and she refuses twice..she has the chance to go off with Will for a happy ever after but no..she crosses the very thing she was fearing earlier.
Had Liz ended before this moment in DMC..then there would have been a big fat lack of closure for her character..she needed to end on the most significant place..for a person in any story..it doesn't even have to be a "hero" story
both Jack and Will met tia way early on in the story. elizabeth is behind everyone else in terms of development
even when the hero/heroine crosses the first threshold they still aren't fully ready battle the demons/adventure..they still have to learn all the rules in order to survive it...its only at the end (step 9ish) do they usually gain what they set out for at step 5..and yeah..we saw Jack gain it didn't we?
"And I want to know how in the world any of you think that Elizabeth kissing Jack is so insurmountable a problem for her and Will, when she actually KILLED Jack. Yeah, he didn't scream for help, but that's how Jack is. He lets people make their own choices, and doesn't get angry about it. But I'm not sure that necessarily means he's going to be all lovey with the person who killed him. You know? That's sort of an even bigger "bump" in the road than a kiss...how would he be able to trust her again?"-------Surreal
Yes, I will agree for the most part Jack doesn't interfere too much in other people's decisions, such as when he didn't really care if Will accepted his pirate blood or not. But, Jack does care what choices people make, especially when they affect him. I'm sure he was pretty pissed when Barbossa marooned him and he was not okay with that. That was an attempt to kill him. I'm also pretty sure he wasn't okay with Liz burning everything on that island, especially the rum. He didn't just support that decision she made. He was in no hurry to get back with Norrington and co. And most importantly, he was not okay with Will destroying the heart when he had the chance and that caused the whole wheel fight. So I don't know why he would panic and fight about all these instances and yet be so docile and passive for another.
surreal44..the kiss is a big threat in my opinion because by the end of the movie, Liz is where its bold..Jack is where its underlined:
1. Ordinary World -will..she's thrust into the special world of Jack rather unprepared and feeling out of place and afraid of her feelings for him
2. Call to Adventure - Jack comes back for her *be with me) "pirate" liz actually shakes her head in a no.
3. Refusal of the Call - refuses Jack
4. Meeting With the Mentor/supernatural helper - Tia
5. Crossing the First Threshold
He/she fully enters the special world of his/her story for the first time.
This is the moment at which the story takes off and the adventure
gets going. The balloon goes up, the romance begins, the plane or
spaceship blasts off, the wagon train gets rolling. Dorothy sets
out on the Yellow Brick Road. The hero/heroine is now committed to his/her
journey... and there's no turning back.
6. Tests, Allies, Enemies
7. Approach
8. Supreme Ordeal
9. Reward
Once beaten the dragon, slain the Minotaur, the
hero now takes possession of the treasure he's come seeking.
Sometimes it's a special weapon like a magic sword, or it may be a
token like the Grail or some elixir which can heal the wounded land.
Sometimes the "sword" is knowledge and experience that leads to
greater understanding and a reconciliation(squaring off) with hostile forces.(Kraken again)
The hero may settle a conflict with his father or with his shadowy
nemesis. In RETURN OF THE JEDI, Luke is reconciled with both, as he
discovers that the dying Darth Vader is his father, and not such a
bad guy after all.
The hero may also be reconciled with a woman. Often she is the
treasure he's come to win or rescue, and there is often a love scene
or sacred marriage at this point. Women in these stories (or men if
the hero is female) tend to be SHAPE-SHIFTERS. They appear to
change in form or age, reflecting the confusing and constantly
changing aspects of the opposite sex as seen from the hero's point
of view. The hero's supreme ordeal may grant him a better
understanding of women, leading to a reconciliation with the
opposite sex.
10. The Road Back
11. Resurrection
12. Return With the Elixir/reward
IMO that is the closure..each character has ended on very significant steps..Will is actually around step 6/7..meaning he's crossed the first threshold which is his father and saving him..and there will be no turning back..hence the fact he is the one who stabs the heart in AWE.
"At no time did Jack was wibbling about Elizabeth, or vice-versa."
Definition of wibble (which i assume wibbling comes from):
Wibble
First recorded in the 1840s alongside wobble, wibble rose to prominence after it was used as a nonsense word in the Roger Irrelevant cartoon strip in UK adult comic Viz in the 1980s and later used in an episode of Blackadder Goes Forth in 1989. The term is also used as a synonym for chatter and other contentless remarks, and (rarely) as a way of pronouncing "www"
This doesn't make any sense at all to me....
oh wait, maybe it means that when they talked, their words weren't chatter and other contentless remarks, and that everything they said meant something and they mean something to each other (altho we already knew that 😄) .... i dunno
AYEEE!!
so take that everyone who though Jack/Liz weren't serious when they were talking together..it wasn't meaningless flirting it was deeper than that.
Also imma just test something out here..see if yall agree:
Movie 1:
T&T say its her story right?
Todrov's theory, narrative structure:
1.state of Equilibrium
Liz is a young girl who wants to meet a pirate..dreams to be one
2. Disruption in the equilibrium
Will enters her life, as does the pirate medallion her dream kinda fades as she gets older..she's just stuck as a someone who doesn't want to know or be with a pirate anymore..forced into this life into the corset.
3. Recognition of disruption
Jack enters her life shakes things up we suddenly see feisty Liz as soon as Jack "frees her from the corset", pirate medallion is explained and linked in with Jack "where did you get that?"
4. Repair of disruption
Liz starts to behave like a pirate she always was in her heart..especially when stranded alone with Jack
5. New Equilibrium
She ends with Will...but I don't think thats the real "new equilibrium" cuz why has she ended up with the disruption that took her away from her pirate nature?...she's a pirate at heart and she has sort of found herself now because of Jack. Jack clearly shook up her world and brought her back to who she really is deep down
also that last scene.. where she says "it is" (where her heart truly lies) Will's not even in the shot..its just her and Jack...but he's behind her as if she doesnt even know it yet but the audience kinda do.
DMC actually starts on a disruption..meaning the end of CotBP was the equilibrium for DMC..and IMO the new equilibrium of CotbP was not as it seems..especially for Jack it suggests Liz was on his mind as he left..as if he had found someone special in her.
sorry I'm blabbin again