willo wrote:
Yes, I will agree for the most part Jack doesn't interfere too much in other people's decisions, such as when he didn't really care if Will accepted his pirate blood or not. But, Jack does care what choices people make, especially when they affect him. I'm sure he was pretty pissed when Barbossa marooned him and he was not okay with that. That was an attempt to kill him. I'm also pretty sure he wasn't okay with Liz burning everything on that island, especially the rum. He didn't just support that decision she made. He was in no hurry to get back with Norrington and co. And most importantly, he was not okay with Will destroying the heart when he had the chance and that caused the whole wheel fight. So I don't know why he would panic and fight about all these instances and yet be so docile and passive for another.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't think that Jack doesn't care for her for some reason, but there are, as many of you point out, different levels of caring. Jack may actually love Elizabeth...in fact, I think it's quite possible. I think Liz might love him also, but I don't think they are in LOVE. There's love, and then there is LOVE. They aren't at the LOVE point yet, and I don't think they ever will.
But Jack is never panicked in any of those examples you showed. The only two times I ever saw him truly panic was when he first finds out about the Kraken and when he is being chased by the Pelegastos.
Jack had probably been planning on staying behind on the Pearl all along, which is the main reason why he didn't call out for help. No sense in calling out for help when you had already made up your mind about something. The only reason he struggles to free himself is because he wants to die on HIS terms...not on Elizabeth's.
One other thing that you (or someone else, possibly. Um...???? Can't remember) mentioned, and I'm sorry to say I'm too lazy now to dig it up (no disrespect meant, to whoever said this) is that you mention how Will does not have to vanish or die to make J/E work. In essence, yes it does. Even if he finds out what Elizabeth has done, I don't think he'd ever just give her up. After all, he's willing to try to kill Jack, so I'm not sure that the idea of Elizabeth killing Jack would make him angry.
In fact, it may have the opposite affect on him. He has, after all, left Jack behind for dead as well. I'm going to guess with Jack it must be an initiation of friendship to either slap him or try to kill him. 😆
The Twelve Steps are interesting, but it's hard to fit them to the story when we don't have all the pieces yet...and once again, you over-look many details in order to make it a J/E ending.
Not everything is J/E related, nor is it all centered around Elizabeth and Will being doomed. There are other elements to the story that are being over-looked in the somewhat desperate attempts to prove a 'ship'.
But here I go, jumping back into the fray anyway, since any attempt to discuss other stuff is doomed....
I disagree that Will hasn't matured as much as Elizabeth. He has matured beyond her, I believe, but his character development is much more subtle and far less shocking than Elizabeth's. Why?
Because of society. Men are supposed to step up, change and evolve. They are supposed to become stronger, better leaders, and do dark, sometimes nasty deeds to save the ones they love.
When women do it...well, it makes people uncomfortable, it puts them on edge, and it surprises us. I think that's why so many people don't like Elizabeth (it isn't a fair double-standard, but that's just how it is).
The problems Will is going to face in the next movie are mainly that eventually, while he wants Elizabeth and he wants to save his father, he may have to choose between the two of them. The other problem, of course, is how he deals with Elizabeth and how that relationship is resolved fully.
As far as the relationship is concerned, Elizabeth might leave him, or he might leave her, or one or both of them will have to do something to prove how much they care for each other. We already know how much they care for the other, but as is typical in these stories, at the moment they have blinders on and may not be able to see it.
So something will have to happen to startle them into awareness. My own little pet theory is one or both of them die trying to save the other, and then, since it is Disney and Pirates of the Caribbean, they are brought back to life by some divine creature. Cheesy? Yes. 😄 But despite how hard I try not to be, I am a romantic at heart. 😍 (This is an absolutely horrible paragraph...my sincerest apologies if it goes in circles.)
I actually had more to say, but I sort of forgot it because I was distracted by thoughts of a sad drowning and then joyful reunion. Will post more later. 😄
I agree with you Surreal in that I think that Will has moved beyond Elizabeth. I was actually contemplating the other day on what could possibly motivate him at this point to take her back, other than that he loves her. I wondered is it still possible for him to love her with all his heart when she's done something that is essentially quite cruel. The main thing that I have problems with in the AWE leaked script is that I wonder if he really loves her any more or is he going through the motions? There's no real answer. He claims that he loves her and that his heart is with her, but his answers I've noticed always come with some sort of calculation first that is related to his ambition of stealing the Pearl .
I say that it's quite evident that they've grown apart. And that they're maturing differently. Will seems to have come into his own, and I think the catalyst that brought him there was his being traded to the Dutchman. By the time he returns to the Pearl, he's become a confident leader against the Kracken. Meanwhile, Elizabeth's development doesn't really occur until she makes that final choice.
When I said that she's out grown him, I meant to say that they seem to have outgrown each other, or at least the story book romance stage. That doesn't mean they won't come back and discover what a true romance is. But for now...
The thing that I see with Will is that his ambition to save his father is leading him to take very drastic steps, some of which have unforeseen negative consequences. You mentioned that one might die for the other, and I think that actually may hold true. But in this instance, because I see Will as being a very dark, driven character at this stage of the series, I think it may be of his doing. (It doesn't mean that I hate Will.)
What I also noticed about the AWE script is that whenever Tia Dalma questions about what their intentions are in their journey, she always asks Will where his heart lies first. If she's capable of seeing people's motivations and inner most desires, then I believe she's aware that his heart isn't necessarily with Elizabeth as he claims (in this instance, it may simply be that like ELizabeth he's in denial that they're facing the end of their dream). Also, the cabin scene at the end of DMC set up a lot.
When Tia Dalma addresses Will about the final events surrounding Jack's death, she mentions his disappointment about losing the Pearl first. Also, the camera work is interesting in that scene as well. As he is bitterly throwing his knife down, they do use Mis-en-scen. The knife is in Will's foreground, or in this instance, on the forefront of his mind. It's only after Tia Dalma addresses Elizabeth that his mind is recalled.
In a way, it almost seems like the events of DMC pushed him in a different path. As though he was wavering whether he should save Elizabeth or save his father and that her betrayal pushed him in the direction of his father, a character who, incidentally, is the only one who has proven himself loyal to Will.
Surreal44..you are right..I don't have all the pieces either..but I do have an idea about what is going to happen 😄 especially to Will. I'm not making this up about him stabbing the heart. I know he does it.
I know you believe KttC in that I'm a lying little *****...but I'm not lying. But you can believe them if you want..they have no idea about what happens to Tia either. I really cant wait for them to see that brat biotch was not lying.
I also know where everyone ends up in the script.
----------------------
Also just to back up the whole Will/Liz further apart than ever before thing. In an interview posted here a few weeks back. Keira even said something along the lines of "will and Elizabeth..they pretty much fall apart by the end of it all, Jack and Elizabeth evolve into something interesting."
Will/Liz hearts are in completely different places by the end of DMC.
BTW peeps here's what T&T said about the closure:
"How do you create a sense of closure for Dead Man's Chest even though you have more story to tell in the third film?
Rossio: The closure comes from a resolution of the thematic argument of the film. While there may be some plot issues still dangling, as long as the film makes a definitive statement in terms of the emotional story of some of the characters, there's a sense of it being complete. Ideally (knock on wood).
Elliott: What's really interesting is -- if there was no sequel after this, if there was no third movie, with the basic emotional moments and what happens at the end of this one -- I would be comfortable having it go out [like this]. We would have resolved the plot of Davy Jones differently, but, in terms of what happens with Jack and Will and Elizabeth and the conclusion of our movie, I feel comfortable that it would work whether you had a sequel coming up or not."
They say emotional not physical moments no?
So where ever they end physically is not important. Its where they are emotionally by the end of DMC.
I agree Liz is a tough one to suss out. But I do think she has decided on Jack by the end of it all.
She was stuck on step 1 for so..SO long in DMC that her refusal of the call was bound to be the most climactic moment of the film..but that wasn't where she ended DMC.
BTW peeps. I'm probably wrong about this 12 step stuff. Its not the only factor of a narrative there's also the equilibrium - disruption - new equilibrium aspect..It can be argued DMC started on disruption and the characters try to restore that original equilibrium by the end of AWE
So its hard to tell what Liz's original equilibrium was..It can be seen as Jack or Will.
I'm gonna say Jack because Will was actually the disruption of CotBP when it came to Liz it seems. She wanted to be a pirate then he crashed into her life making that dream non existent..by the end of it she's found that equilibrium again but its a new equilibrium..I think that is the set equilibrium for DMC's opening disruption. She wants Jack back in her life.IMO
and I bet this makes no sense. I can barley understand myself lol
Elliott: What's really interesting is -- if there was no sequel after this, if there was no third movie, with the basic emotional moments and what happens at the end of this one -- I would be comfortable having it go out [like this]. We would have resolved the plot of Davy Jones differently, but, in terms of what happens with Jack and Will and Elizabeth and the conclusion of our movie, I feel comfortable that it would work whether you had a sequel coming up or not.
That is a really interesting quote, I have never read this before. How hard is this to understand. The emotions if each character were in different places at the end of DMC. That makes total sense. Will and Elizabeth were physically with each other, but their feelings were somewhere else. That was a pretty straight forward quote. And yes it would have work quite well if they without a third film. I think something similar is going to happen in AWE.
Well Jack stayed with the pearl but it wasnt for the pearl he stayed for, he stayed for liz. He was in love with the pearl bc it symbolized freedom. Jacks mind and heart was set on liz. So was elizabeth. Wils heart and mind was set on rescuing his daddy. He was more dissapointed that the kraken got the pearl. I dont think he cared much about jack.
LovelyOne:
I didn't say you were lying. I have no opinion on what other people say about you, because...I don't really care. They can say what they want about you, it isn't going to change my opinion on you. Whether they call you a liar or whatever is not something I really care about.
I simply said that your source is what I find suspect. And I'm begging for some spoilers here, so if you have any besides J/E and Will spoilers, I'd love you forever.
SavvySparrow:
I understand what you are saying about the emotional elements of Will and Elizabeth, and it works with the theory that one or both will die for the other one.
Basically, by the end of DMC, Will doesn't understand what Elizabeth's choice is. Her choice was to save HIM, and to be rid of Jack. Whether she killed Jack simply because he was too much of a temptation for her is up for debate, but I don't think that's why she did it. Ted already said that Liz killed Jack because it was a form of punishment for what he did to Will.
And I've never argued the idea of Will becoming darker and darker in the third film. If Will in fact stabs the heart, and does become the next Davy Jones, Elizabeth will follow him. Her heart lies with Will, and if becomes the next captain, she will find a way to be with him.
If Will dies, Elizabeth will follow right behind, without hesitation, and if Elizabeth dies, Will won't survive, because their bond is far deeper than some attraction and a hot kiss. They are made for each other, they are the other halves of each other's soul. Without one, the other will not exist.
to be honest with Yaz..the ending in the salmon script, to me suggests Jack/Liz but they are missing something out there like they did with the whole Barbossa thing for DMC
the ending to the script I have read is really.....................RANDOM
however fom Kate's insider that scene has been "removed"
for some reason I dont believe that
Also funny how you now believe Will is going to die and you like the ending because it seems Liz is going to die with him 🙄
"SEEMS"
I thought she had chosen Will when she did that to Jack on the pearl..but OH whats this she wants to kiss him again?...whats this her last choice was 100% Jack?. Its guilt she is feeling there yes..but people dont show emotions like that in movies moments after a passionate kiss and "just friends lip graze" because they "ONLY feel guilty for killing a man who they in no way love or care deeply for" 🙄
makes no sense at all that she's not feeling anything but "guilt for killing a man" after what we just saw between her and Jack on the pearl before she left.