Rots Obi and Mace vs. Rots Anakin and Siddious

trying to apply the a > b > c? i dont think thats good enough,

Firstly even if its anakin vs obiwan look at how long they fought in ROTS 10-15 mins, and look at the fight between mace and sidious, it lasted like what 5 mins?

Already anakin is not as strong as sidious in ROTS and mace was able to take down sidious due to his shatterpoint and suprise attack, What makes you think anakin would ever beat mace? At his full potential yes he surely will, but this is ROTS anakin,

And im sure mace underestimated dooku during their fight, if you are going to use A > B > C then listen to this, dooku beat mace, and mace = to sidious, does that mean dooku is better than sidious? No, same between anakin and mace. Just because anakin > dooku and dooku > mace does not mean anakin is above mace in force powers or lightsaber combat, Dooku i believed died because he underestimated anakin and mocked him during the saber lock. As a jedi master, windu already had a power which is disputed as a dark side power, force crush which he can use against anakin, He did it to grievious, But since this is lightsaber battle, that does not count

negative. If you know me, you'll see I don't use the A>B>C argument ever...I'm using that as an example of Anakin's power and skill. And now you're using the ABC argument while denouncing it before and afterwards. You say that since Anakin fought OB1 for 12 min, and that he's not as strong as Sidious, and Mace beat Sidious in under 5 minutes, that Mace can beat Anakin??? Talk about hypocrisy...that sure sounds like an A>B>C argument to me.

Where did it ever indicate that mace took Dooku lightly? It doesn't. Dooku was the apprentice of the most powerful Jedi of that time, Yoda, and to the best of my knowledge, Dooku was still a Jedi and wouldn't be out to kill Mace so you cant say that Mace didn't have the opportunity to reevaluate his stand on Dooku's skill and adjust accordingly. Mace was bested because he's simply not the best. Vapaad and shatterpoint alone do not guarantee Mace victory against Anakin.
Also, force mastery and overall force power are not the same thing. Mace has higher force mastery, but Anakin is the most powerful at this time. And if they are equal in saber skills (although using different styles) then Anakin's raw power would level the playing field with Mace's saber technique given edge. No matter how you cut it, the Sith take this.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
negative. If you know me, you'll see I don't use the A>B>C argument ever...I'm using that as an example of Anakin's power and skill. And now you're using the ABC argument while denouncing it before and afterwards. You say that since Anakin fought OB1 for 12 min, and that he's not as strong as Sidious, and Mace beat Sidious in under 5 minutes, that Mace can beat Anakin??? Talk about hypocrisy...that sure sounds like an A>B>C argument to me.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Where did it ever indicate that mace took Dooku lightly? It doesn't. Dooku was the apprentice of the most powerful Jedi of that time, Yoda, and to the best of my knowledge, Dooku was still a Jedi and wouldn't be out to kill Mace so you cant say that Mace didn't have the opportunity to reevaluate his stand on Dooku's skill and adjust accordingly. Mace was bested because he's simply not the best. Vapaad and shatterpoint alone do not guarantee Mace victory against Anakin.
Also, force mastery and overall force power are not the same thing. Mace has higher force mastery, but Anakin is the most powerful at this time. And if they are equal in saber skills (although using different styles) then Anakin's raw power would level the playing field with Mace's saber technique given edge. No matter how you cut it, the Sith take this. [/B]

See this picture of mace windu? i believe its very similar to what luke did in the unifying force. Quite similar to luke when he "looked like he was waving 20 lightsabers"

now read this
"The power of Vaapad is simple: it is a channel for one's inner darkness; and it is a reflecting device. With strict control, a person's own emotions and inner darkness can be changed into a weapon of the light. Vaapad is able to take the hatred, anger and rage of the opponent and reflect it back at him. In his fight with Palpatine, Mace Windu used Palpatine's own speed and hatred against him, reflecting it back against the Sith Lord and using it as his own power. Vaapad is at once a form of lightsaber combat, a state of mind, and an actual tangible power. To use it required great mastery, discipline and, above all else, purity of heart and spirit. Vaapad users are intense, focused, and introverted; there are even signs of pent-up hostility in them."

And read this, anakins form is form V
Form VII demands the emotional and physical intensity of Form V, but it much more effectively controls it. If mastered, Form VII results in extraordinary power.

Never ever underestimate vaapad, especially from mace windu whom i consider either the greatest lightsaber duelist or if not one of the greatest

Did you even know what i was saying eariler? i said the fight between anakin and obiwan was extremely long, while the fight with sidious was short? get it? Therefore since mace beat sidious earlier, he can double team anakin with obi wan.

OK, you cant use the ABC and then say no one else can, thats just fuking retarded and ignorant. Sidious and Anakin have different strengths and different weaknesses, so what might work optimally against Sidious, might not work as well against Anakin. And yes, according to GL, "At the time of ROTS, Anakin is the most powerful, he just lacks the experience that other Jedi masters have, and is ultimately why he loses to OB1. He just doesn't have the experience."

And ABC's are ABC's, one isn't better than the other. Its typically bullshit anyway, but if you want to use it in regards to a technique, its even more flimsy of an argument. I didn't say that Anakin's power would allow him to kill windu did i? No, i said that his raw power would help even the odds to Mace's Vapaad. And Anakin going ape-shit seems to work quite well for him doesn't it? Except that one instance when OB1 got him, which was an isolated incident being that he was more emotional than he normally would be. He wasnt that angry at the temple.

And yea i do get what you were saying. But do you understand that the fights were in two separate locations under two separate circumstances? Get it? No two fights would be the same. Its it'd be stupid to argue that it would. And again, if Anakin wasn't as mad as he was the first time he fought OB1, he would kill him alot faster. I believe you even said that in another thread, i may be wrong, but i doubt it. And Sidious wouldn't have to worry about converting Anakin and would probably spend little time trying to duel Mace when he could just kill him quickly with the force.

Also, Mace wasn't moving quite that fast in the movie. In the movie he's somewhat slow, not much faster than Vader in ESB and ROTJ. So canically speaking, Anakin has a speed advantage. I know Vapaad uses that against the opponent, but it surely doesn't make you invincible.

Kill mace quickly with the force? mace can do the same with crush, And in many many instances, sidious resorts to the force ONLY when he gets disarmed. Examples, ROTS mace vs sidious, yoda vs sidious, DE, luke vs Sidious, he all resorted to force powers after he gets disarmed,
And no, raw power from anakin CANNOT contend with mace experiences of vaapad, Mace would know every single of anakins move, I assume that for one to master the juyo form then the vaapad, one has to master all the other forms and study its aspects.

Again vaapad is something anakin has never been against, And did you read the passage i provided? Vaapad would reflect anakins own raw power against him.
Lastly the picture i uploaded, like i said, it bears similarity with lukes so called "20 lightsabers" I read the book, and compared to the picture, its very similar.Not to forget that mace kills droids with his bare hands alone,

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Also, Mace wasn't moving quite that fast in the movie. In the movie he's somewhat slow, not much faster than Vader in ESB and ROTJ. So canically speaking, Anakin has a speed advantage. I know Vapaad uses that against the opponent, but it surely doesn't make you invincible.

Originally posted by Kaos sebaceous
I searched and didnt find anything
Setting😖iddious's little room there as shown in mace siddious duel
i hope this thread isnt much of a failure
force,sabers,pretty much anything goes

Seeing as Mace already beat Sidious, he'd win again.
Obi-Wan and Anakin are basically the same, although it's difficult to determine who is the better: Obi-Wan is calm and sees things clearly, while Anakin is wild and reckless. Sheer power overcame methodical elegance, as can be seen in the Dooku-Anakin duel, but calmness and clarity overcame brute force, seen in the Obi-Wan-Anakin duel. However, Obi-Wan defeated Anakin by gaining the high ground. The duel could have gone on for an undetermined amount of time. On even grounding, they'll be going at each other like crazy. Eventually, Mace will beat Sidious and they (Mace and Kenobi) would move in to destroy Anakin.

same thing, calm ness took over agressiveness in the mace vs sidious fight

Was Mace the calm one? I always thought that Vapaad was tapping into your darkside, causing it to be wild and untamed. Sort of.

Not to forget Vaapad is a VERY unpredictable form, and yes, mace was remaining calm and yet being able to tap into the darkside and not fall into its trap.

Mace was hardly calm, as thats not what Vapaad is. It uses the hate and anger of the user as well as the opponent, and allows the user to enjoy the fight. And ROTS is obviously not AOTS or the CW cartoon, which by USh, is not canon. With his aging came slower speed. Period.

NOT canon? wtf is that, why are some people so stuck up on using movie only? It has already happened and already recorded, whats done is done.

Mace was hardly calm? if so we would have seen him get his ass kicked by sidious, same thing happened to anakin, he was not calm and got his legs hacked off.

Firstly anakin would not know how to predict vaapad since its a very unpredictable form, The amount of suprise attacks a vaapad user can pull out

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Mace was hardly calm, as thats not what Vapaad is. It uses the hate and anger of the user as well as the opponent, and allows the user to enjoy the fight. And ROTS is obviously not AOTS or the CW cartoon, which by USh, is not canon. With his aging came slower speed. Period.

Vapaad might be wild, but the user has to be calm and controlled, or else they'll go fully into the Dark Side. Also, they can't use all their hate and anger, or else that would also be going into the Dark Side. Whose aging caused slower speed?

Originally posted by Council#13
. Whose aging caused slower speed?

Mace's. If hes faster in AOTC when he was younger, and then slower in ROTS when he got older, then aging has slowed him down.

And Kadesh, movies are the highest form of canon, less gl's spoken words. Just as Vader, If mace is slower in the movies than he is in the CW cartoons, or anyother EU source, then guess what, hes slower. Every form is unpredictable. If you knew every move your opponent would do, then there would be no point fighting. And a surprise attack is not kicking someone in the face while fighting, and surprise attack is if say Anakin and Mace were talking, and out of nowhere Sidious attacks Mace out of "surprise". You can say that if two people are in a street fight and they have only been punching an then one guy grapples him to the ground that it was a surprise attack...thats part of fighting. Mace didn't go in there and be like, "Palps, we gon' fight now muthafukka! but we only gon' use sabers, nothing else. And when i lay my vengeance down upon thee....blah blah blah." No, they were both fighting for their lives, and a kick was called for. But by no means was it a "surprise attack".

Council, thanks for the clarification on Vapaad. But you all have to admit, what works on one person doesn't mean it will always work on another person....right?

Wait, what stops Sidious from taking Mace out with the force? It is the small room huh? Kinda makes it into a saber battle? Unless people think Mace can actually beat Sidious in a straight out fight.......

Well is Sidious even that much stronger than Mace with the force? Is there anything spectacular he'd be able to pull off? Mace clearly has no problem with his lightning, so the question is whether he can take down his force defences with TK or something else, imo he can't.

Well Yoda is higher than Mace, and Sidious is what, 20% higher than Yoda...so yea Sidious is stronger than Mace in the force. While I agree that MAce beast Sidious in ROTS, i sincerely believe that Mace wouldn't beat him most of the time. Different circumstances, different outcome. I think that just had to play out like that and so it did.

Hmm good one, some good arguements too. But you assume that it is mace vs sidious and obi vs anakin.

I didn't assume, Kadesh. Who fights whom wasn't confirmed by the thread creator. However, logic dictates that my version of the pairs fighting would make sense, as Obi-Wan initially refused to fight Anakin until Yoda told him that Sidious would have been too powerful for him to beat.

In this fight, Windu has no knowledge of Palpatine's abilities, and would be unable to say: "you might wanna go after Anakin, 'cause Sidious'll nail your ass."

Not that i know off, i do not believe that anakin would expect mace windus shatterpoint. Mace would kill anakin, i dont know how true it is when i read this on wookie and wiki, Against another dark side user, vaapad reflects ones own hate and anger against him, The same could happen to anakin. However, Obi wan is the weak link here, either one would kill him and then mace would get squashed

This is what you don't seem to be understanding. Anakin is on Sidious's level, Mace's level, Yoda's level, and Dooku's level in terms of lightsaber abilities. You said it yourself. They always duel with sabers first. Anakin will easily be capable of holding Windu at bay (notice how I didn't say "defeat" - though that is possible).

Sidious will kill Obi-Wan, and then Mace will be slaughtered.

No, what i was saying is IF anakin gets killed before sidious slaysobi wan, 2 on 1 on mace would beat him

Unfortunately, that's not going to happen. You don't seem to understand that Anakin > Obi-Wan. It will take longer for Mace to kill Anakin (if he can in a swordfight) than it will for Sidious to kill Obi-Wan.

Thats because you are assuming anakins opponent is obi wan while sidious opponent is mace, Of cource mace gets killed.
Honestly i dont know how this match started but its pointless to argue about this.

No, it isn't. The logical fight seems to be Obi-Wan vs. Sidious and Mace vs. Anakin.

Agreed, but palpatine didnt exactly dominate mace, mace parried the attacks, so is it safe to say that dooku got dominated by anakin and obi wan? i dont think so, well maybe

I said "dominated the fight". Sidious put Mace (who is an offensive person) on the defensive. It means that he was in control of the fight, initially, and through most of its duration.

Well this is a lightsaber match, not a force fight. The only killing power that i know mace has is force crush, which he demonstrated on grievious.

This is saber only? If not, anything goes.

Palpatine has lightning, grip, and alot of other pimp powers, But normally fights start in a duel. The only known force fighter that i know of is nihilus and jorus c boath because nihilus relies on drain and jorus on lightning.

Palpatine > Mace in Force powers. Yoda = Palpatine in force powers, and the both of them are above Mace.

Escape, I think you shouldn't imply that Anakin would have a real chance at winning against Mace. If Sidious couldn't do it, Anakin can't do it either, unless you would think Anakin is superior to Sidious.