Rots Obi and Mace vs. Rots Anakin and Siddious

Originally posted by King Adas
Well is Sidious even that much stronger than Mace with the force? Is there anything spectacular he'd be able to pull off? Mace clearly has no problem with his lightning, so the question is whether he can take down his force defences with TK or something else, imo he can't.

No problem with his lightning? When Sidious was in a bad position, frying himself and after he had fought a battle and had a lightsaber to his throat, he still caused Mace to struggle as hell, and even caused him to drop one hand at the end of the scene. Hadn't Sidious stopped, Mace would have been left to parry it with one hand, which he would not have made.
I think it's pretty safe to assume that if Sidious used lightning on equal ground, Mace would not make it....

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape, I think you shouldn't imply that Anakin would have a real chance at winning against Mace. If Sidious couldn't do it, Anakin can't do it either, unless you would think Anakin is superior to Sidious.

I think we're having another situation of you not understanding me correctly. I'll do my best to clear it up.

We are talking about a lightsaber fight. Sidious didn't touch a lightsaber in thirteen years, and was able to equal Mace in swordsmanship. He lost in a single instance, and that is credited only to Mace's considerable skills with Shatterpoint.

Imagine if he fought against Mace like he did against Yoda. I hate to tell you, but Palpatine is equal to Yoda in Force powers, and though the margin between the Palpatine and Yoda and Dooku and Mace isn't by a lot - the Force difference is enough that Sidious could win in an all out fight.

Anakin is on the same level as Yoda, Sidious, Mace, and Dooku in swordsmanship.

So, yes. I hate to tell you this, but he does have a chance (and a sizeable one, at that) to beat Mace in a swordfight.

No, you forgot vaapad refelcted palpatines one hate, speed and power against him,

What makes you everything anakins mastery of form V contends with vaapad? alredy form 7 requires the intensity of form V.

And against palpatin and mace, like i keep saying, Palpatine strikes with force attacks only when he gets disarmed. He proved this twice in ROTS and once in DE
And no, anakin will never beat mace is a saber duel, why? Because Vaapad is an unpredictable form, its something palpatine has never seen before and its something anakin has never been up against,

Originally posted by kamikz
No problem with his lightning? When Sidious was in a bad position, frying himself and after he had fought a battle and had a lightsaber to his throat, he still caused Mace to struggle as hell, and even caused him to drop one hand at the end of the scene. Hadn't Sidious stopped, Mace would have been left to parry it with one hand, which he would not have made.
I think it's pretty safe to assume that if Sidious used lightning on equal ground, Mace would not make it....

He can reflect it back with vaapad

We are talking about a lightsaber fight. Sidious didn't touch a lightsaber in thirteen years, and was able to equal Mace in swordsmanship. He lost in a single instance, and that is credited only to Mace's considerable skills with Shatterpoint.

However, couldn't Sidious have sparred with Dooku while he's at his secret hideout in Coruscant (you see them at the end of AOTC).

Dooku must have known of Sidius's power otherwise he would have challenged him.

This is what you don't seem to be understanding. Anakin is on Sidious's level, Mace's level, Yoda's level, and Dooku's level in terms of lightsaber abilities. You said it yourself. They always duel with sabers first. Anakin will easily be capable of holding Windu at bay (notice how I didn't say "defeat" - though that is possible). -escape 81

No, it will not be possible for anakin to ever defeat mace windu,
Sidious is a far greater lightsaber duelist that anakin and yet even faster still, Mace vaapad and shatterpoint took sidious down, i dont see why it can take anakin down after a while.

What are you trying to say is that anakin can last for a while on mace is it? then sidious kills obi wan then they double team him? ok i got your point.

Not to forget i remember i read somewhere, "Anakin is one of the greatest swordsman in the jedi order, second to only mace and yoda". No i cant provide you with the source since i cant remember where it came from and no i am NOT making this up i swear

Originally posted by kamikz
No problem with his lightning?

By saying this, I am just stating that he is able to defend against Sidious' lightning, don't take everything I say too literally.

When Sidious was in a bad position

He was damn close to Mace. I'd say he was in a pretty good position.

, frying himself

He was frying himself because Mace was reflecting his lightning back onto him, I really don't see your point here, it seems that you are trying to make an argument that Sidious was in an overall bad position in the particular instance that Mace was actually able to defend against his lightning, I really don't see why you posted this in that particular context.

and after he had fought a battle

Two things wrong with this point.
1. Mace had also just fought a battle.
2. Palpatine was using the force to attack Mace with the lightning, Mace was using his physical attributes (strength) to defend against it (blocking it with his saber). Now the fact that they had just thought a battle would actually work in Palpatine's favour in this case, as the battle really didn't take a toll on Palpatine's force constitution (the variable that would factor in on whether Palpatine would be successful in his lightning attack against Mace) with the exception of a few force assisted manoeuvres, force speed etc., whereas the battle took a huge toll on Mace's physical energy, and that is the variable (physical strength) that factored in on his success with defending against Palpatine's onslaught of sith lightning. In other words, the battle affected Mace more than it did Palpatine in that particular regard.

and had a lightsaber to his throat,

True, but it wasn't directly next to his throat, and Palpatine clearly had enough room to pull off the attack, I see no reason why he would've needed more room to pull it off as effective, and therefor see no reason why it would have factored in on the potency of Palpatine's attack in a negative way.

he still caused Mace to struggle as hell,

Yes, but Mace was still able to defend against it.

and even caused him to drop one hand at the end of the scene. Hadn't Sidious stopped, Mace would have been left to parry it with one hand, which he would not have made.

True, but the point is, Sidious did stop, and that was because Mace was skilled enough to not only defend against the lightning, but also redirect it back at Palpatine, and Palpatine was forced to stop otherwise the lightning may have killed him.

I think it's pretty safe to assume that if Sidious used lightning on equal ground, Mace would not make it....

However, I see no reason how Sidious was at any disadvantage when he lightning attacked Mace, and therefor see no reason why the lightning would be any more effective on equal ground.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh really? Well then tell me smartass, what happens when they fight in an open field? On even ground, Obiwan won't be able to get the advantage, and on even ground Anakin wouldn't have to try anything stupid.

LOL!!!

Heh, don't worry my apprentice, I got this one...

Hey Prodigal Knight....

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Wrong, technically Anakin is better than Obi-Wan. However, Obi-Wan knows all of Anakin's moves and is more relaxed and calm than Anakin. In addition, Anakin's anger will make him make a mistake. That's how Obi-Wan survived Mustafar. It'll just be like that.

Your WRONG.

Anakin is better than Obi-Wan, and about "Obi-Wan knowing all of Anakin's moves..."

Anakin knows all of Obi-Wan's moves .

Double edged sword, remember?

De de de...

That "Knowing all his moves thing" is crap.

Obi-Wan won only because of Anakin's mind being in a crippled state.
If Anakin had been clear and focused like how he had been while fighting Dooku, then Obi-Wan would have been doing the backstroke in lava.

Speaking of which, If Anakin is fighting Sidious and Mace is still alive, that means he hasn't "killed" Padme yet.
That also means he hasn't killed younglings yet either.

So mentally, he is still capable of much focus.

So, when he duels Obi-Wan in this scenario, given the fact he'll be calm and only think that Obi-Wan and Mace are trying to assassinate senator Palpatine, and the fact that Obi-Wan won't be able to find any high ground, not that it will help him anyway...

Obi-Wan will get trashed by Anakin.
😉

BTW, This is sort of the reason Anakin beat Mace Windu in the RotS Video game.
In normal terms, Mace has about the power and skill of Dooku, perhaps slightly higher.
But, using Vapaad, he can absorb the Force energy that gradually permeates off of a Dark sider and either use it to fuel him through a fight, or re-direct it back into the opponant.
Of course Shatterpoint can also be used...
My point is, regularly, (Vader)Anakin would get defeated in a short duel by Mace, who would feed of his Dark Force energy and win out against him.
In the game however, Anakin fights Mace after witnessing "an assassination attempt".
Since he hasn't gone to the Dark side yet, he isen't using anger or the Dark side. He fights determinedly against Mace, in his mind trying to save the life of an innocent man.

Because of this, Mace cannot use Vapaad against/on him.
There is no Dark side energy resonating from Anakin to collect and utilise. Also, Shatterpoint cannot be used since Anakin is not utilising the Dark Side.
So Mace, who for all good purposes was basicly another "Dooku" in that duel and was left with his regular abilities.

And, like Dooku, after putting up a good but short fight, was eventually worn down, and out-techniqued.

Just wanted to point that out, since it confused people when the game came out... 😛

@Kadesh

No, you forgot vaapad refelcted palpatines one hate, speed and power against him,

No, I didn't forget. I remember the fight very well, I might add.

This doesn't change the fact that Palpatine dominated half of the fight (again, despite not touching it for thirteen years), and only in the final moments did Mace gain the upper hand.

You can say: "Mace could reflect and redirect blah blah blah", but it is a process - otherwise he would have won the fight fairly quickly and fairly easily, wouldn't you say?

If anything, though Vaapad is highly effective and unpredictable, it took a while to build up - as proven against Palpatine.

What makes you everything anakins mastery of form V contends with vaapad? alredy form 7 requires the intensity of form V.

Hate to tell ya, who thought that Djem So would be able to "contend" with Makashi, the most effective form of dueling for lightsaber combat. And Anakin bested the master of Makashi - Dooku.

You can't say what can or can't contend with Vaapad. Afterall, Yoda is capable of beating Mace - and he uses Ataru - which Count Dooku says is a very "inferior" form.

And against palpatin and mace, like i keep saying, Palpatine strikes with force attacks only when he gets disarmed. He proved this twice in ROTS and once in DE

What's your point?

Mace kicked him in the face and knocked him to the ground. Palpatine began to overpower Mace from an inferior position, and stopped by trying to manipulate Anakin. Lucas confirmed that Palpatine "faked" being weak.

And no, anakin will never beat mace is a saber duel, why? Because Vaapad is an unpredictable form, its something palpatine has never seen before and its something anakin has never been up against,

Dude, don't tell me that Mace will always win against Anakin. You don't know, so don't pretend that you are an authority.

He can reflect it back with vaapad

See the above.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
However, couldn't Sidious have sparred with Dooku while he's at his secret hideout in Coruscant (you see them at the end of AOTC).

Dooku must have known of Sidius's power otherwise he would have challenged him.

You should read Labyrinth of Evil. It details that Sidious sought out Dooku (who intended to seek Sidious out - to kill him), "and instead of a battle to the death, there was a conversation".

Dooku never fought with Sidious.

Then, it goes on to say how, unlike Maul, there was no need to engage in endless hours of lightsaber instruction, as Dooku was already an extremely proficient duelist.

Chances are, they never sparred at all. Dooku was already experienced (hell, he's even older than Palpatine), and the only thing he really would need instruction on is Palpatine's schemes as well as Dark Side techniques.

He likely feared Sidious due to his connection and grasp of the Dark Side, as well as his intellect. There's nothing that indicates that they ever sparred.

And, if you recall, Sidious's lightsaber was buried in a statue in his office.

@King Adas:

Sidious was lying on the floor, with Mace towering over him. That is a bad position. And, Lucas confirmed that Sidious was "faking" when he ceased the lightning attack (and the novelization confirmed that Sidious's pain fed the lightning in power - and Mace says "Anakin, he's too strong for me!"😉. Meaning, from a much more vulnerable position - and despite being blasted in the face - he still had more to give, whereas Mace was on the verge of being impaled by his own saber.

Sidious > Mace in the Force.

Didn't he have another one?

Originally posted by King Adas

True, but the point is, Sidious did stop, and that was because Mace was skilled enough to not only defend against the lightning, but also redirect it back at Palpatine, and Palpatine was forced to stop otherwise the lightning may have killed him.

However, I see no reason how Sidious was at any disadvantage when he lightning attacked Mace, and therefor see no reason why the lightning would be any more effective on equal ground.

Like Escape said, he stopped to play the sympathy role on Anakin. Had he continued and killed Mace himself, Anakin would booted his ass out the window. Thats why he was saying, "I'm too weak, weak." one minute, and then as soon as Anakin Ginsued Mace's arm, he screams, "POWER!! UNLIMITED POWER!!!" and flung Mace out the window.

OK, so he cant do a force push and then when Mace is picking himself up off the ground, ZAP...Mace is deep fried.

Originally posted by Escape81
@Kadesh

No, I didn't forget. I remember the fight very well, I might add.

This doesn't change the fact that Palpatine dominated half of the fight (again, despite not touching it for thirteen years), and only in the final moments did Mace gain the upper hand.

Originally posted by Escape81
You can say: "Mace could reflect and redirect blah blah blah", but it is a process - otherwise he would have won the fight fairly quickly and fairly easily, wouldn't you say?
[/B]

It takes time to build up as you said

Originally posted by Escape81
If anything, though Vaapad is highly effective and unpredictable, it took a while to build up - as proven against Palpatine.
[/B]

Originally posted by Escape81
Hate to tell ya, who thought that Djem So would be able to "contend" with Makashi, the most effective form of dueling for lightsaber combat. And Anakin bested the master of Makashi - Dooku.
[/B]

Originally posted by Escape81
You can't say what can or can't contend with Vaapad. Afterall, Yoda is capable of beating Mace - and he uses Ataru - which Count Dooku says is a very "inferior" form.[/B]

Originally posted by Escape81
Mace kicked him in the face and knocked him to the ground. Palpatine began to overpower Mace from an inferior position, and stopped by trying to manipulate Anakin. Lucas confirmed that Palpatine "faked" being weak.
[/B]

Originally posted by Escape81
Dude, don't tell me that Mace will always win against Anakin. You don't know, so don't pretend that you are an authority.

[/B]

Originally posted by Kadesh
No sidious dominated part of the fight, after the anakin arrives cut scene it was mace who dominated the fight

And dont tell me that anakin would beat mace either, you also would not know correct? And since when am i acting like i have the authority? [/B]

Escape never said Anakin would win, he said Anakin has a chance and I suppose he's right. Will he win? No.. Does he have a chance? yes..

Sigh escape was saying palpatine dominated the fight before anakins cut scene. And yes i did watch the same fight

Anyways i doubt that on a 1v1 match that anakin can hold off mace

Originally posted by Kadesh
Sigh escape was saying palpatine dominated the fight before anakins cut scene. And yes i did watch the same fight

Anyways i doubt that on a 1v1 match that anakin can hold off mace

I don't know what you guys are talking about. Sidious did dispatch of the 3 B level Jedi, but he's no match for Mace and his shatterpoint, and neither is Anakin. Do they have a chance to win in a saber duel? Sure.

Well sure they do. Its the same with any 1, Its your planning and thinking. i still believe sidious can beat mace if he comes up with a plan, Anakin is wild and recklass and seeks to only beat his opponents up, He was far better that obi wan and still lost because he didnt stop and think. He just did it without thinking of the consequences.

I believe mace knows anakin is wild and recklass and im sure mace as a jedi master would use that to his advantage, sidious would do the same, so would vader.

I guess people agree now that Anakin in this scenario would trash Obi-Wan without too much difficulty.

now the question stands.

Sidious is still probally fighting Mace.

Now Anakin is helping him. who wins this?

sigh, sidious team then, since DS arguements really make sense that obi wan would get trashed by anakin,
Mace would beat either one in a 1v1 match though