There's no way the Count has this. Kas'Im has basically mastered everything about the saber, every form and sequence, every weapon (with the exception of a few such as the 'saber fork', 'saber whip' and 'saber cane', and he is in perfect physical condition - his reflexes are phenomenal, his stamina is great and he's incredible fast.
Er...can you prove this with a quotation? Is it a requirement for the battlemaster to master every form of dueling? Could it be that he earned his title just by his excellence in Makashi, or knowledge in every lightsaber form (but not necessarily mastery)? Kas'im was described by the omniscient narrator as the greatest in the galaxy/possibly ever.
A battlemaster teaches lightsaber forms to all Jedi. If it was just a regular Jedi having mastery in just one form, then Plo Koon could have been Battlemaster. No, Cin Drallig has mastered all forms, Kyle Katarn has, and so has Dooku (otherwise they're not bm).
And if the Jedi wasn't at least skilled in every form, then how can he properly teach it. He has to know all the moves.
Bane and Sirak were dueling in what was described as a "blur." Since Kas'im = Sirak*6.023*10^24, he is definately moving FAST.
Yet I doubt Kas'Im can move as fast as Yoda and Dooku was able to fight him (Yoda) and keep up with his pace.
Er, Wookiepedia is not exactly the most reliable source. It states that Sion was a master of force drain, when I haven't really seen anything like that stated in KOTOR.
Wookiepedia is 95% accurate most of the time. It even gives its long list of sources to give how they made each and every one of their articles.
Kas'im mastered everything INCLUDING double bladed and Jar Kai. Not to mention he was a skilled force user who could defend against blasts of energy capable of reducing temples to rubble. He was stated to be the "perfect weapon" and best duelist in the galaxy at that point. The author states that he is "possibly the greatest ever." There is no proof that Dooku beats him.
1.) Dooku was considered one of the GREATEST to go through the Jedi Order.
2.) Could take on Yoda, who was considered the Supreme master of the Light.
3.) Perhaps the greatest user of Makashi.
There is definate proof that says Dooku > Kas'IM
Er, it seems like a simple use of choke and then a simple use of push. Kas'im, I am fairly sure, can defend against such a mundane attack, given that he was able to protect himself from Bane's ubermensch blast.
How was that mundane? He could literally simueltaneously Choke and Whirlwind at the same time. He kept choking Kenobi to weaken him. And how was that simple push, that Whirlwind SLAMMED Kenobi into the platform and got him unconscious.
Seems like a simple display of force heal to me... an ability that many a lowly knight could perform.
Um, excuse me? This is the same power that Qui-Gon Jinn had to meditate for for a minute and Malak had to drain Jedi for. Plus he did this while he kicked back down from Anakin. He could definately do if he spins out of Kas'Im's way for just ten seconds.
By the way, this battle is a close one... but there haven't seen any arguments that prove Dooku will take out Kas'im.
And your arguments have?
Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
[B]A battlemaster teaches lightsaber forms to all Jedi. If it was just a regular Jedi having mastery in just one form, then Plo Koon could have been Battlemaster. No, Cin Drallig has mastered all forms, Kyle Katarn has, and so has Dooku (otherwise they're not bm).
Yet I doubt Kas'Im can move as fast as Yoda and Dooku was able to fight him (Yoda) and keep up with his pace.
Wookiepedia is 95% accurate most of the time. It even gives its long list of sources to give how they made each and every one of their articles.
1.) Dooku was considered one of the GREATEST to go through the Jedi Order.
2.) Could take on Yoda, who was considered the Supreme master of the Light.
There is definate proof that says Dooku > Kas'IM
How was that mundane? He could literally simueltaneously Choke and Whirlwind at the same time. He kept choking Kenobi to weaken him. And how was that simple push, that Whirlwind SLAMMED Kenobi into the platform and got him unconscious.
Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
A battlemaster teaches lightsaber forms to all Jedi. If it was just a regular Jedi having mastery in just one form, then Plo Koon could have been Battlemaster. No, Cin Drallig has mastered all forms, Kyle Katarn has, and so has Dooku (otherwise they're not bm).
Again, where does it say Dooku was a battlemaster?
And if the Jedi wasn't at least skilled in every form, then how can he properly teach it. He has to know all the moves.
He doesn't need to know every move to teach a from to a disciple.
Yet I doubt Kas'Im can move as fast as Yoda and Dooku was able to fight him (Yoda) and keep up with his pace.
Where's your proof he can't move as fast?
Wookiepedia is 95% accurate most of the time. It even gives its long list of sources to give how they made each and every one of their articles.
And if you can give me one of the sources that says a battlemaster is a master of every form, I'll believe you. Too bad for you the battlemaster page of Wookiepedia has no sources.
1.) Dooku was considered one of the GREATEST to go through the Jedi Order.2.) Could take on Yoda, who was considered the Supreme master of the Light.
3.) Perhaps the greatest user of Makashi.
1. Never heard, so disregarded.
2. Could hold Yoda
3. Opinion, not fact. No logical conclusion. Point moot.
How was that mundane? He could literally simueltaneously Choke and Whirlwind at the same time. He kept choking Kenobi to weaken him. And how was that simple push, that Whirlwind SLAMMED Kenobi into the platform and got him unconscious.
And me along with others have proven Kas'im can block Dooku's force attacks.
Um, excuse me? This is the same power that Qui-Gon Jinn had to meditate for for a minute and Malak had to drain Jedi for. Plus he did this while he kicked back down from Anakin. He could definately do if he spins out of Kas'Im's way for just ten seconds.And your arguments have?
No, he couldn't. Revilizing takes time, and he won't be given it.
And if the Jedi wasn't at least skilled in every form, then how can he properly teach it. He has to know all the moves.
Simply knowing all the moves and sequences does not necessarily mean you mastered the styles. Kas’im stated, mastering does not mean being able to use the sequences of each form of saber dueling, but to allow the darkside to fill the force user and truly guide the lightsaber in the chosen form. Simply being a battlemaster and knowing all the sequences does not equate to mastering the styles.
Yet I doubt Kas'Im can move as fast as Yoda and Dooku was able to fight him (Yoda) and keep up with his pace.
Right, because he can get out of the bed, travel to the door, open the door, and pull in Bane all in less than 0.5s means he is not comparable in speeds to Yoda or the Count. Does not quite make sense to me.
Wookiepedia is 95% accurate most of the time. It even gives its long list of sources to give how they made each and every one of their articles.
Maybe… but I am still reluctant to include this as a reputable source when trying to back up a claim. If they took something out of a sourcebook, the only way I would believe it is if they actually included a quote. Otherwise they might be Bsing and making it look like they took it out of a book.
1.) Dooku was considered one of the GREATEST to go through the Jedi Order.
And Kas’im was a contender for possibly the greatest duelist ever…THE best of his time in the galaxy
Could take on Yoda, who was considered the Supreme master of the Light.
Point moot. Dooku was running meaning he was losing.
Perhaps the greatest user of Makashi.
And, how does this prove he beats Kas’im? Kas’im was possibly the greatest master of Jar’Kai. Hell, according to the quote, we can interpret that he was perhaps the greatest duelist EVER.
There is definate proof that says Dooku > Kas'IM[
Hardly dude… You are merely stating facts about Dooku. This does not necessarily put him above Kas’im. Some of those facts are flawed to.
How was that mundane? He could literally simueltaneously Choke and Whirlwind at the same time. He kept choking Kenobi to weaken him. And how was that simple push, that Whirlwind SLAMMED Kenobi into the platform and got him unconscious.
And? Bane unleashed a blast of energy that ripped apart a temple, but PoD stated that Kas’im was able to block such an attack. If you want to argue that choking and tossing a knight is on the same level as annihialating an entire temple, brick by brick…be my guest.
Um, excuse me? This is the same power that Qui-Gon Jinn had to meditate for for a minute and Malak had to drain Jedi for.
Wow, you seem to forget that Qui Gon needed to spend quite a while to recover. As a matter of fact, the shields had to come up for him to be able to properly perform the technique.
Malak had to drain Jedi for
You are not analyzing the reason WHY Malak drained Jedi. He was fighting Revan. Do you REALLY think he has the time to heal himself while he was fighting in the most heated battle of his life?
Okay, I would like you to prove how much strength in the force is required to perform this technique. We have seen the ability available to a neophyte like Jaden Korr. It is quite clear that the technique is not quite as remarkable as you claim.
Plus he did this while he kicked back down from Anakin. He could definately do if he spins out of Kas'Im's way for just ten seconds.
Show me the quote.
He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.
Is this it? In any case, Dooku was on the ground, and Skywalker was “looking down at him,” not actually fighting. Again, in an arena battle, it is an assumption that the combatants will be doing anything other than fighting.
And your arguments have?
Reading comprehension much? Did I say that Kas’im would win? I stated that there was no proof that Dooku would definitely win. I said that I was not yet decided.
Whats with KMC's latest hard on with this loser?
Ok, you guys whole argument for Kas'im is "Kas'im tooled Bane therefor he is teh bestest ever!" he gets a generic "the best" quote that is thrown around so much nowadays it holds little relevance, what has Kas'im actually done? Mastered all 7 forms, Beat Bane. The latter is NOT impressive what so ever, and should not be used to compare Kas'im to Dooku in anyway, Bane had been an student for months and a Sith Lord for weeks, I don't care how much "special night courses" he got from Kas'im that in NO WAY compares to 70 years of experience.
Kas'im could possibly give Dooku a tough match but he wouldn't be able to beat him, as much as people throw around the "Mastered 7 forms" Dooku has a more then adept understanding of every form including Vaapad, as he was a blademaster and taught Grevious all the forms, and ROTS novel calls him a "Master of swordplay"
Lets also look at the opponents Dooku has beaten, Mace ****ing Windu was tooled by Dooku in Obsessions, that alone puts him above Kas'im till we have definitive proof that Kas'im can beat someone who is more then a fledgling Sith Lord he's not really that much more special then Cin Darling.
Then we have Dooku, with 70 years of knowledge of the force and lightsaber combat, Dooku who was taught by the two supreme avatars of there respective sides of the force, Dooku who has put force users on their knees by sending a pin cushion sized force blast at them, Dooku who tooled Sora Bluq and Tholme at the same time. Dooku > Kas'im.
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
[B]Whats with KMC's latest hard on with this loser?Ok, you guys whole argument for Kas'im is "Kas'im tooled Bane therefor he is teh bestest ever!" he gets a generic "the best" quote that is thrown around so much nowadays it holds little relevance, what has Kas'im actually done? Mastered all 7 forms, Beat Bane. The latter is NOT impressive what so ever, and should not be used to compare Kas'im to Dooku in anyway, Bane had been an student for months and a Sith Lord for weeks, I don't care how much "special night courses" he got from Kas'im that in NO WAY compares to 70 years of experience.
What's up with your hostility against Ancient Sith?
And I haven't used that as an argument, and it hasn't been used by anyone for pages.
Kas'im could possibly give Dooku a tough match but he wouldn't be able to beat him, as much as people throw around the "Mastered 7 forms" Dooku has a more then adept understanding of every form including Vaapad, as he was a blademaster and taught Grevious all the forms, and ROTS novel calls him a "Master of swordplay"
Where does it say he has adept knowledge of all forms?
Lets also look at the opponents Dooku has beaten, Mace ****ing Windu was tooled by Dooku in Obsessions, that alone puts him above Kas'im till we have definitive proof that Kas'im can beat someone who is more then a fledgling Sith Lord he's not really that much more special then Cin Darling.
Let's take into account the fact Bane can desatroy a Rakatan temple with a force attack. Now, that kinda beats what Mace did, don't you think?
Then we have Dooku, with 70 years of knowledge of the force and lightsaber combat, Dooku who was taught by the two supreme avatars of there respective sides of the force, Dooku who has put force users on their knees by sending a pin cushion sized force blast at them, Dooku who tooled Sora Bluq and Tholme at the same time. Dooku > Kas'im.
Again, claims not substantiated. Where did he send a pin cushion force blast? And how is that powerful?
[What's up with your hostility against Ancient Sith?
What are you talking about? I Bane and Kas'im aren't Ancient Sith, as for the hostility Im just sick of the "Omg bestests" quote which gets thrown around in EU so much it holds no real relevance.
Where does it say he has adept knowledge of all forms?
A logical deduction perhaps? If he taught Grevious from scratch someone who WTF pwned masters all the forms its assumed he's more then adept, let alone the fact he was a blademaster.
Let's take into account the fact Bane can desatroy a Rakatan temple with a force attack. Now, that kinda beats what Mace did, don't you think?
Lets take into account Mace has destroyed an entire droid army with his bare hands, and as of now were not talking about the force and Bane didn't just casually do that attack it was all his reservoirs of force energy and it took him time to charge.
Again, claims not substantiated. Where did he send a pin cushion force blast? And how is that powerful?
It put Ventress on her knees, I have the exact quote I'll post it when I find it.
he gets a generic "the best" quote that is thrown around so much nowadays it holds little relevance, what has Kas'im actually done?
Mastered every form of lightsaber dueling?
Defended against a blast of energy that ripped apart a temple?
Described by the omniscient narrator as a contender for title the greatest duelist ever?
was a blademaster and taught Grevious all the forms, and ROTS novel calls him a "Master of swordplay"
Proof that he mastered them all?
And that "master of swordplay" is moot. Any damn person (Fisto included) who wields a ligthsaber moderately well is considered a damn master of swordsplay.
Lets also look at the opponents Dooku has beaten, Mace ****ing Windu was tooled by Dooku in Obsessions
Could you prove up with a source. As I recall, two droids took Mace and threw him away.
that alone puts him above Kas'im till we have definitive proof that Kas'im can beat someone who is more then a fledgling Sith Lord he's not really that much more special then Cin Darling.
Prove that he is in Drallig's level. His speed was described as nothing short of incredible. He pushed back the prodigy that was Bane. There is proof he mastered all forms of dueling.
Then we have Dooku, with 70 years of knowledge of the force and lightsaber combat,
Years does not equate with strength. Urr was tooled by Exar in the force. Oops.
Again, what is a force lightning going to do against someone who withstood Bane's energy blast. (which leveled a temple)
Dooku who was taught by the two supreme avatars of there respective sides of the force,
Oh wow, prove that Sidious taught everything...
Dooku who has put force users on their knees by sending a pin cushion sized force blast at them,
Prove up. Are you talking about lightning or a force push?
Dooku who tooled Sora Bluq and Tholme at the same time.
Neither of these guys match up to Bane. Kas'im was tooling Bane with the lightsaber. Bane and Sirak, were moving as a blur in their duel.
Lets take into account Mace has destroyed an entire droid army with his bare hands,
Are we talking about Mace's ability in Clone Wars which was stated by Leeland Chee to be an exageration?
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
What are you talking about? I Bane and Kas'im aren't Ancient Sith, as for the hostility Im just sick of the "Omg bestests" quote which gets thrown around in EU so much it holds no real relevance.
Except being a master in all 7 forms, being called the perfect warrior and possibly the greatest ever, and being the best in the sith order makes you one of the best.
A logical deduction perhaps? If he taught Grevious from scratch someone who WTF pwned masters all the forms its assumed he's more then adept, let alone the fact he was a blademaster.
Lets take into account Mace has destroyed an entire droid army with his bare hands, and as of now were not talking about the force and Bane didn't just casually do that attack it was all his reservoirs of force energy and it took him time to charge.
Let me make this clear. Labyrinth of Evil confirms that Count Dooku was once the Jedi's foremost lightsaber instructor. That is the same position that Drallig holds, which is the same as the NJO rank of "battlemaster", which Kyle Katarn has.
Dooku has either mastered all of the forms (which I could believe) or has extreme knowledge of all of them.
Originally posted by Escape81
Let me make this clear. Labyrinth of Evil confirms that Count Dooku was once the Jedi's foremost lightsaber instructor. That is the same position that Drallig holds, which is the same as the NJO rank of "battlemaster", which Kyle Katarn has.Dooku has either [B]mastered
all of the forms (which I could believe) or has extreme knowledge of all of them. [/B]
Escape, there's nothing to suggest he mastered all the forms. I'm sure he knew others, but he wasn't on the level of Sidious, Yoda, or Kas'im.
No need, here's an extract from page 24 of Yoda: Dark Rendezvous:
Mantises squirmed and hunted in the vision over his desk. He snapped off the holocron and consulted a monitor. "Ah. Our latest batch of guests is arriving. Loyal beings and true, for the Trade Federation cause and a ten percent profit. Go meet them at the door. You always make such an impression on visitors."
"Don't patronize me," Asajj said coldly.
Dooku looked around. "Or what?"
Her face went pale.
Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain. "Please," she said. "Don't."
"It doesn't feel very good, does it? Like sharp stones in your throat and chest." Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor. "It's the blood vessels I hate," Dooku said. "The way they stretch inside, like balloons about to pop."
"P-p-p-please . . ."
"But worse than anything is the memories," he said, more softly still. "They crowd around, like flies on meat. Every despicable thing, every petty vice, every little act of spite." A cruel, strange quiet stretched out as Ventress panted on the stone floor. Rain ticked against the window glass, and the Count's soft voice went dark and far away. "All the things you should have stopped, but didn't, and nothing will ever be right again. And the things you've done," he whispered. "By the pitiless stars, the things you've done . . ."
The comm on Dooku's desk beeped. He shook his head, like a man waking from a dream. "The Troxan delegation is at the door."
Ventress crawled to her feet. Her face was bruised and her cheeks were wet with tears. Both pretended not to notice. "Tell them I'll be right down," Count Dooku said.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape, there's nothing to suggest he mastered all the forms. I'm sure he knew others, but he wasn't on the level of Sidious, Yoda, or Kas'im.
You're ignoring facts. Aside from being the foremost lightsaber instructor in the temple, and one of the greatest in the Jedi's history, you forget that he trained General Grievous in all of the lightsaber forms. He also promised Grievous in LoE that he [Dooku] could demonstrate what attacks that Grievous would get from Mace, Drallig, Yoda, and Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Originally posted by King Adas
Where was this said, LoE?
This is one:
Dooku taught Grievous well, and Grievous had taught his elite well. Coupled with Dooku's coaching, the programing in the seven classic forms of lightsaber dueling - made them lethal opponents.
Another:
"Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu, or stars help you, Yoda?"
There is one in RotS novelization that I'm looking for, as well.
Mastered every form of lightsaber dueling?
Defended against a blast of energy that ripped apart a temple?
Described by the omniscient narrator as a contender for title the greatest duelist ever?
Once again, Mastering every form =/= sheer leetness as it should, Cin Darllig got WTFpwned by Anakin with one hand. Defended against a blast? Dooku has physically surpassed the strength of two men (One of them being Anakin ****ing Skywalker) with one hand, One kick sent Anakin flying 10 feet. AGAIN having the "bestest" quote tossed around so lightly in EU leads me to believe that its not that special, and how has he proved this? By pwning Bane, again big deal. If he was the bestest of his order he would have been the leader not Kaan, he would have been more then a lacky, if he was the perfect warrior, he wouldn't have been killed.
Proof that he mastered them all?
What don't you get about adept, adept =/= master.
And that "master of swordplay" is moot. Any damn person (Fisto included) who wields a ligthsaber moderately well is considered a damn master of swordsplay.
BS, you prove up that statement where Kit Fisto is said to be a master of swordplay.
Could you prove up with a source. As I recall, two droids took Mace and threw him away.
I can't post direct pictures, since Swtimeline isn't working for me, but its in the last issue of Obsessions Mace charges Dooku and gets WTFPwned by him.
Prove that he is in Drallig's level. His speed was described as nothing short of incredible. He pushed back the prodigy that was Bane. There is proof he mastered all forms of dueling.
Lol Bane was NOT a saber prodigy (anther term thrown around too much) Bane had been studying for MONTHS, that is in NO WAY compared to Kas'im or Dooku, its a guess as to why Bane didn't get shitted on with the Double Blade. Again you fall back on the tired old "He mastatd 7 forms!"
Years does not equate with strength. Urr was tooled by Exar in the force. Oops.
Urr was never described as one of the most powerful Jedi in the 25k year history of the order. Oops.
Again, what is a force lightning going to do against someone who withstood Bane's energy blast. (which leveled a temple)
Never said he would do it, why are you putting words in my mouth.
Oh wow, prove that Sidious taught everything...
Never said he did, again learn to read, I said he LEARNED from the two most powerful figures ever save for Luke.
Prove up. Are you talking about lightning or a force push?
Push
Neither of these guys match up to Bane. Kas'im was tooling Bane with the lightsaber. Bane and Sirak, were moving as a blur in their duel.
A blur to whom? To a bunch of fledgling SIth students who as a collective whole sucked ass?
Are we talking about Mace's ability in Clone Wars which was stated by Leeland Chee to be an exageration?
Im not even gonna get into this but are you seriously gonna try to compare Months of actual experience Bane to Mace Windu?
Except being a master in all 7 forms, being called the perfect warrior and possibly the greatest ever, and being the best in the sith order makes you one of the best.
YAWN, If he was the perfect warrior, why did he die, why wasn't he leading the BOD, if he was truly teh bestest. Newsflash The BOD SUCKED.
Grievous is a damn robot. He's got 4 arms.. Apparently those 4 weren't good enough against Obiwan.
Obi Wan who had the perfect style to beat him, the same Grievous who was injured by Mace. Grievous was TOOLING 5 Jedi at ONCE, at one point, two of them being masters.
Actually Bane was dead tired from the fight, not the force wave.
"Drained by the sudden unleashing of the force." pg 245, he was exhausted from getting owned yes, but the force blast DRAINED him.