Kas'im versus Count Dooku

This is one:

Dooku taught Grievous well, and Grievous had taught his elite well. Coupled with Dooku's coaching, the programing in the seven classic forms of lightsaber dueling - made them lethal opponents.

Key word = 'programing'. The saber forms were programmed into them, Dooku wouldn't have had to teach them the forms, and so, there is still no evidence that he knew all 7 forms.

Another:

"Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu, or stars help you, Yoda?"

... Is there a point to this quote?

... Is there a point to this quote?

He had to know there forms in order to show Grevious what to expect.

Originally posted by King Adas
Key word = 'programing'. The saber forms were programmed into them, Dooku wouldn't have had to teach them the forms, and so, there is still no evidence that he knew all 7 forms.

... Is there a point to this quote?

Oh so you can now program fighting moves into a cyborg? Matrix much? And the point of the quote was Dooku is proficent enough to mimic the exact fighting styles and moves of the top Jedi.

I'll say this again until Kas'im tools a Mace Windu level being in pure saber combat, he's not on Dooku's level, tooling a fledgling Sith Lord is not an indication of true power, Dooku does it constantly to Ventress, And as for those students in the Sith Academy, they were shit, especially when Githany who had been a average Jedi Knight with a lust for power was pretty much better then ALL of them save Sirak, and these same shitty students became Lords weeks later, what does that say about the NSO, that they sucked, period. And Kas'im was the best duelist in that shitty order. Once again Big Fish, Small Pond.

Ah OK, I just couldn't tell that from that one quote alone, it wasn't put into context.

Oh so you can now program fighting moves into a cyborg? Matrix much?

Why not?

Just seems stupid, do they have every form in a computer somewhere? Did Grevious even have implants in his head? Why didn't they do it to Vader or more Droids to combat the Jedi? To illogical.

I'll say this again until Kas'im tools a Mace Windu level being in pure saber combat, he's not on Dooku's level,

Ah right, so by your logic, he can't possibly do it because he has never demonstrated it. That's great.

tooling a fledgling Sith Lord is not an indication of true power

Bane progressed by an insane amount in those couple of years, he was a serious prodigy, quit trying to downplay Kas'Im.

Dooku does it constantly to Ventress,

1. Ventress is no Bane.
2. He is only able to do so because he intimtaely trained wit her and knew all of her weaknesses.

And as for those students in the Sith Academy, they were shit,

How were they shit, they were the best of the best that the BoD had to offer, in regards to students.

especially when Githany who had been a average Jedi Knight with a lust for power was pretty much better then ALL of them save Sirak,

Any proof that she was an average jedi? This is very unlikely, especially considering she was able to defeat Kiel Charney, one of the most pwoerful jedi at the time.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Just seems stupid, do they have every form in a computer somewhere? Did Grevious even have implants in his head? Why didn't they do it to Vader or more Droids to combat the Jedi? To illogical.

The things is AC, it is clearly stated that the forms were programmed into them, so no matter how stupid it sounds, it still counts.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
What are you talking about? I Bane and Kas'im aren't Ancient Sith, as for the hostility Im just sick of the "Omg bestests" quote which gets thrown around in EU so much it holds no real relevance.

Yet it's fine when it gets thrown around in the RotS novelization?

A logical deduction perhaps? If he taught Grevious from scratch someone who WTF pwned masters all the forms its assumed he's more then adept, let alone the fact he was a blademaster.

And already stated, Grevious was programmed.

Lets take into account Mace has destroyed an entire droid army with his bare hands, and as of now were not talking about the force and Bane didn't just casually do that attack it was all his reservoirs of force energy and it took him time to charge.

Let's take into account Bane became the leader of the sith, etc.

It put Ventress on her knees, I have the exact quote I'll post it when I find it. [/QUOTE]

Originally posted by King Adas
The things is AC, it is clearly stated that the forms were programmed into them, so no matter how stupid it sounds, it still counts.

I believe that programming part was referring to the IG-100 droids, not Grecious. You can't program a living being.

Ah right, so by your logic, he can't possibly do it because he has never demonstrated it. That's great.

No, but hwy go with the unknown who has the generic "teh bestest" quote vs an Established Jedi and Sith Lord with the "teh bestest" quote.

Bane progressed by an insane amount in those couple of years, he was a serious prodigy, quit trying to downplay Kas'Im.

Couple years? He was on Korriban for MONTHS get it right. He was a force prodigy maybe, but not with the saber.

1. Ventress is no Bane.
2. He is only able to do so because he intimtaely trained wit her and knew all of her weaknesses.

Never said she was I was pointing out the ownage of wannabes is nothing special. SO DID KAS'IM, and he still owned Bane by busting out Jar Kari, your point?

How were they shit, they were the best of the best that the BoD had to offer, in regards to students.

And the best of the best in the BOD were shit. Pretty simple especially since there only pretty much a step above canon fodder.

"Bane recognized him as one of the lesser students of the Academy on Korriban: so weak in the darkside, it wasn't even worth learning his name."

That kinds of pieces of shit are the made LORDS, those kinds of shits are the best of the best, there were 3 good students at that school, Bane, Githany and SIrak thats it the rest blew.

Any proof that she was an average jedi? This is very unlikely, especially considering she was able to defeat Kiel Charney, one of the most pwoerful jedi at the time.

She was able to defeat him as a Sith Lord, and prove up Kiel Charney was one of the most powerful. She demonstrate nothing spectacular, aside form being cute and ambitious, she even commented on the pathetic amount of lightning she could only muster AS A SITH.

Im off to bed.

Once again, Mastering every form =/= sheer leetness as it should,

From what you are saying, I take it that you imply all kas'im knew were sequences, and patterns towards each fighting form?

Kas'im regarded mastery as beyond sequences and patterns of each lightsaber form. He stated that in order to master lightsaber dueling, you would have to use the darkside, not just know sequences.
Given this we can logically infer that it was not just "knowing all the patterns," but a genuine leetness with all the saber forms.

Unless you would like to prove he knew nothing more than "simply sequences and patterns" we are to assume that he was a master by his definition.

Can you prove that all the BM's mastered all forms of dueling.

Cin Darllig got WTFpwned by Anakin with one hand.

And? Prove that Drallig was a contender for the "best duelist of the galaxy" title.

Defended against a blast? Dooku has physically surpassed the strength of two men (One of them being Anakin ****ing Skywalker) with one hand,

Is this supposed to mean anything? Other than the fact that the entire thing was a ruse by Kenobi and Anakin to trick Dooku, it means very little actually.

Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second attacker.

The novelization even states ; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing

Outpowers two men...right.

One kick sent Anakin flying 10 feet.

And? Skywalker came right back up and pwned his ass...You are not proving anything.

AGAIN having the "bestest" quote tossed around so lightly in EU leads me to believe that its not that special, and how has he proved this? By pwning Bane, again big deal.

Really? Other than the fact that the quote said he could could compete for the best ever duelist (which includes figures like Skywalker, Windu, Sidious...)

If he was the bestest of his order he would have been the leader not Kaan, he would have been more then a lacky,

Kopeckz stated that Kaan was leader only by virtue of charisma

Strong leader does not equal best duelist, get your facts straight.

if he was the perfect warrior, he wouldn't have been killed.

Right, he was tooling Bane. The only reason he died was because he got cocky, and Bane unleashed a blast of energy that brought down the temple on him.

I can't post direct pictures, since Swtimeline isn't working for me, but its in the last issue of Obsessions Mace charges Dooku and gets WTFPwned by him.

Prove that this Mace was as strong as ROTS Mace. I remember Dooku having his droids interrupt the fight. Please show me the comic when you can.

Lol Bane was NOT a saber prodigy (anther term thrown around too much) Bane had been studying for MONTHS, that is in NO WAY compared to Kas'im or Dooku,

Right despite the fact that he DESTROYED the master duelist of the academy in a short time span. Despite the fact that he was capable of producing force lightning that rivalled the masters of the academy in his short study span.

I am going to ask you to prove that Bane was a slower learner than I initially asserted, especially given his feats.

Urr was never described as one of the most powerful Jedi in the 25k year history of the order. Oops.

I would like you to prove that statement up.

And stop downplaying Urr. My point still stands. He had a millenia to obtain knowledge. His years of experience didn't save him from getting tooled.

Never said he did, again learn to read, I said he LEARNED from the two most powerful figures

And my answer is... Who gives a shit? What are you trying to get with this ridiculous statement? Learning from the best does not mean you learned everything.

A blur to whom? To a bunch of fledgling SIth students who as a collective whole sucked ass?

They were described as blurs. Oh my... stop trying to downplay this.

According to your logic, Luke and Palpatine moving as blurs means nothing because the only one watching was Leia (who was still relatively untrained in saber dueling)

Im not even gonna get into this but are you seriously gonna try to compare Months of actual experience Bane to Mace Windu?

If you wish to cede this point go ahead. I still have not seen any proof on your part that this Windu is = to Windu in ROTS.

YAWN, If he was the perfect warrior, why did he die,

He was overconfident...Wow. He deflected Bane's titanic blast. The only reason he died was because he didn't kill Bane soon enough. He was killed by the collapse of the temple.

Prove now that Dooku can take down Kas'im.

As I recall, Dooku defeated Mace before Mace discovered and utilized his shatterpoint. It's unlikely Dooku could defeat ROTS Mace.

[[EDIT]

@Zephiel:

And? Prove that Drallig was a contender for the "best duelist of the galaxy" title.

No one said that he was. However, he was the foremost lightsaber instructor in the Order, after Count Dooku left. He taught the likes of Obi-Wan, at the very least, in his time as instructor.

He was a master of all seven forms, much like Kas'Im. Point being, unfortunately, knowing all seven forms looks really good (I don't deny it at all) on paper, but even people who know them all can be beaten. Yoda, Drallig, and Dooku = perfect examples.

Is this supposed to mean anything? Other than the fact that the entire thing was a ruse by Kenobi and Anakin to trick Dooku, it means very little actually.

I'm not aware that you can fake two overhanded strikes by two extremely fit and powerful Jedi Knights. If you look at their faces in RotS, you even see Anakin and Kenobi gritting their teeth. They are putting effort into it.

And, yet, eighty-three year old Count Dooku was able to block it with one hand.

And? Skywalker came right back up and pwned his ass...You are not proving anything.

Skywalker is an anomaly, Zephiel. I should hope that, by now, you understand that the "usual limits and rules" don't apply with him. He was able to overpower Count Dooku when he was unrestrained and taunted to the point of immense rage.

@King Adas

1. Ventress is no Bane.

Understood and conceded. Still, she was remarkably talented.

2. He is only able to do so because he intimtaely trained wit her and knew all of her weaknesses.

I don't recall this specific part of Dark Rendezvous. Where does it specifically state (or even imply) that Dooku was able to perform this feat due only to his intimate knowledge of her?

How were they shit, they were the best of the best that the BoD had to offer, in regards to students.

The PT > all other eras (with the possible overall exception of the New Jedi Order) in terms of lightsaber skill.

I'm not aware that you can fake two overhanded strikes by two extremely fit and powerful Jedi Knights. If you look at their faces in RotS, you even see Anakin and Kenobi gritting their teeth. They are putting effort into it.

I would argue this. How do you know they were not acting (haha get it... nvm)

No, but with all seriousness, a good ruse would have to entail a certain amount of acting. Especially after the ruse, Dooku describes that : he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing.

Afterwards, I remain skeptical about the whole part of him genuinely outpowering the duo...

Originally posted by zephiel7
I would argue this. How do you know they were not acting (haha get it... nvm)

No, but with all seriousness, a good ruse would have to entail a certain amount of acting. Especially after the ruse, Dooku describes that : he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing.

Afterwards, I remain skeptical about the whole part of him genuinely outpowering the duo...

In serious curiosity, is "outpower" even a word? I'm aware of overpower...

Anyways, remember that - as the fight progressed - his energy died down. Their first strikes took place at the beginning of the duel. I'd say he possessed sufficient power to block their attacks at the beginning and likely middle of the duel - just not the end.

Also remember, when that statement was made, he was fully emersed within Djem So.

Take into consideration the context.

Anyways, I'll talk to you later. Nighty night.

Originally posted by Escape81
In serious curiosity, is "outpower" even a word? I'm aware of overpower...

Dont matter to me. If it communicates the idea, then its as good as any other word. 😛

Anyways, remember that - as the fight progressed - his energy died down. Their first strikes took place at the beginning of the duel. I'd say he possessed sufficient power to block their attacks at the beginning and likely middle of the duel - just not the end.

I find this unlikely. Anakin was using a combination of Ataru and some other form, it was likely not an attempt to break Dooku's arms.

If you look at the novelization, Tyrannus mentions that everything was easy until they show their strategy...
But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord un-:eremoniously to the floor. This was not in the plan. Skywalker slammed his following strike down so hard that the shock of deflecting it buckled Dooku's elbows.

Clearly he is not ACTUALLY a physical match for them both combined. It was a ruse to lull him into a false sense of security.

Also remember, when that statement was made, he was fully emersed within Djem So.

Take into consideration the context.

Er..Show me? I am not sure what you are trying to get at...

From what you are saying, I take it that you imply all kas'im knew were sequences, and patterns towards each fighting form?

Kas'im regarded mastery as beyond sequences and patterns of each lightsaber form. He stated that in order to master lightsaber dueling, you would have to use the darkside, not just know sequences.
Given this we can logically infer that it was not just "knowing all the patterns," but a genuine leetness with all the saber forms.

Unless you would like to prove he knew nothing more than "simply sequences and patterns" we are to assume that he was a master by his definition.

Once AGIAN would you stop putting ****ing words in my mouth, I never said the little potion you quoted "simply sequences and patterns" nor even implied it, the book said he could blend them and so on and so on.

Can you prove that all the BM's mastered all forms of dueling.

Did I say they did? NO. Did I say they would have had to been at least adept in these forms? Yes. Can Dooku mimic, pretty much every form down to a tea to train an non force user from scratch? Yes. Does that imply mastery? Yes. Is that a sufficient logical deduction? Yes.

And? Prove that Drallig was a contender for the "best duelist of the galaxy" title.

The point was, being a master of all seven forms doesn't = leetness when you meet someone who can shit on you no matter what ie: Anakin to Dooku.

Outpowers two men...right.

Actually buddy, I was referring to the movie when he pushes them both back with one hand before he force pushes Obi Wan.

And? Skywalker came right back up and pwned his ass...You are not proving anything.

And, in that same book Anakin is described as

"This is Anakin Skywalker: The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation."

There is NO SHAME in getting WTFpwned by ROTS Anakin no matter WHO you are

Really? Other than the fact that the quote said he could could compete for the best ever duelist (which includes figures like Skywalker, Windu, Sidious...)

The fact that he tooled Windu renders your point moot.

Kopeckz stated that Kaan was leader only by virtue of charisma

And yet, Kaan controls the weak minded fools with the force, further proving that the NSO sucked ass.

Strong leader does not equal best duelist, get your facts straight.

If he's the perfect warrior, and godly uba 1337 with the saber he shouldn't be taking orders from Kaan, the strong lead the weak follow, oh thats right the BOD were so ass backwards that they threw that concept out the window in favor of the "everybody is equal" BS.

Right, he was tooling Bane. The only reason he died was because he got cocky, and Bane unleashed a blast of energy that brought down the temple on him.

Still the "perfect warrior" wouldn't have taken time to give his foe an opening, give a speech, let his guard down, ect ect perfect warrior my ass.

Prove that this Mace was as strong as ROTS Mace. I remember Dooku having his droids interrupt the fight. Please show me the comic when you can.

Star Wars Obsessions takes place exactly 5 months before ROTS, I don't have a scanner so I can't post pics, its Called Obsessions with the subtitle Ventress Reborn! It takes place on the CIS world of Boz Pity, it should be in CW vol 7 or 8, look it up on swtimeline since its not working for me, Dooku flat out PWNS Mace Windu in a straight DUEL.

Right despite the fact that he DESTROYED the master duelist of the academy in a short time span. Despite the fact that he was capable of producing force lightning that rivalled the masters of the academy in his short study span.

The master duelist that happened to be a student, that they happened to not even be worthy for Lightsabers yet, that he produced lightning that Githany said owned hers she NEVER said "Its betta then the masters!" stop lying.

I am going to ask you to prove that Bane was a slower learner than I initially asserted, especially given his feats.

OMG, I said he MAY have been a FORCE PRODIGY for his astounding learning rate, but a saber prodigy? NO, the only reason he lasted with Kas'im was because he memorized all his sequences, thats it, once Kas'im changed it up and brought out something he'd never seen he pissed his pants.

I would like you to prove that statement up.

"He was one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history." - ROTS novel

Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."
— Yoda

And stop downplaying Urr. My point still stands. He had a Milena to obtain knowledge. His years of experience didn't save him from getting tooled.

Urr is not Dooku, point moot.

And my answer is... Who gives a shit? What are you trying to get with this ridiculous statement? Learning from the best does not mean you learned everything.

That he learned from the best that is all, you the one who's taking shit out of context and putting words in my mouth.

They were described as blurs. Oh my... stop trying to downplay this.

WHo were being watched by pieces of shit sith losers, period.

According to your logic, Luke and Palpatine moving as blurs means nothing because the only one watching was Leia (who was still relatively untrained in saber dueling)

Save for it was described by the narrator too...point moot.

If you wish to cede this point go ahead. I still have not seen any proof on your part that this Windu is = to Windu in ROTS.

Im not ceding shit, Im right and if SWtimeline was working I'd gladly prove it, I've given you more then enough info for you to mosey your ass on over to swtimeline and look, it was 5 months before ROTS, fact, Dooku tooled, Windu fact, also in that comic, Ventress escaped and left the republic, Adi was killed by Grievous, Windu slammed a rock on Grievous, Dooku turns on Ventress, now unless Im lying about all this, which Im not this all happened in the one comic. FACT, just because you choose to disbelieve doesn't mean it didn't happen.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Obsession_5

THis is the comic.

He was overconfident...Wow. He deflected Bane's titanic blast. The only reason he died was because he didn't kill Bane soon enough. He was killed by the collapse of the temple.

The "Perfect Warrior" shouldn't get overconfident, the "perfect warrior" shouldn't leave openings for his foes, the "perfect warrior" shouldn't give speech's in the middle of battle. HYPERBOLE anyone?

Prove now that Dooku can take down Kas'im.

I already did. In all, get off this guys dick.

Dooku also left the medical center, but was attacked by Mace Windu. Dooku outmaneuvered Mace after a short duel, and his MagnaGuards grappled the Jedi, disarming him and dragging him into a pit while Dooku headed for the evacuation point, rescuing Grievous' body.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Boz_Pity#The_Battle

There it is, Mace charges Dooku full blast and Dooku tools him around to a pit in the ground ans sics his guards on him.