Darth Vader vs. Darth Maul OR Darth Tyranus OR Gen. Grievous

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Umm, since when? I recall Dooku having received extensive training from the 2 greatest sword users of the era (Yoda and Sidious), being described as a lightsaber prodigy, having decades more experience and being a master of the ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat.

I'm sorry, but you could please enlighten us as to where or when Dooku was trained by Sidious in lightsaber combat? If he was already the finest master of his form as a Jedi, then what training would he get from Sidious? And his "ultimate refinement" didn't help him against anakin's form V, who is not as physically strong as Vader, and remember Vader customized his style to fit him, his suit, and to be more deadly. And really, 60 years of training compared to 40 isn't that big of a difference when the 40 year old has a much stronger bond to the force for more than half his life, and even still a stronger connection than the other Sith apprentices before him.

Here's my prediction of a battle between Dooku and Vader. Tell me if it's accurate:
Dooku attempts to end the battle quickly with Force Lightning (as he always seems to do). Vader, prepared, blocks it with his saber. Then the two engage in lightsaber combat. Dooku quickly gains the advantage; his quick blows get in several glancing hits on Vader. Due to his armor, however, Vader survives. But he now understands that he can't win a defensive battle. He improvises. He begins swinging at Dooku with savage ferocity; his blows are not accurate, and Dooku easily parries several, but Dooku cannot hold against such a relentless onslaught. He is eventually beaten down. Now, one of two things could happen.
1) Dooku recovers quickly and leaps up, unleashing a torrential flow of Force Lightning. Vader's circutry is torn apart, and Dooku wins.
2) Vader grabs Dooku in an iron Force Grip, and the Count can do nothing but watch as Vader cuts him down.

Which one is more likely? This is where their personalities come into play. Part of the reason Dooku left the order was his arrogance. My prediction is that he would be shocked at his defeat in the lightsaber battle, slowing his reaction time considerably. Were this pre-suit Vader, I fear his arrogance would overcome him, slowing him down and turning this into nothing more than a game of chance. However, at this stage, Vader is a methodical planner, and would sieze any opportunity presented him. I think that the victory goes to Vader.

actaully.. thats a pretty good simulation.

thanks
😄

I dont want to turn this into another full blown 'Vader vs Dooku' thread, but I agree with most of what had been posted. Im didnt say that Dooku is better with the dark side, nor that his form gives him the advantage. I will say Dooku has far more experience with the force (specifically light side) because he has had several decades more time to study it. I would also say (though this is my opinion so dont get titchy) that Dooku is a better duellist in general. Again he has had more experience and has fought (and held his own against) some of the greatest duellists ever - Mace Windu, Yoda, Obi-Wan. Though like I said, if you want to debate it go back to the 'V vs T' thread, because im to lazy to argue it again here.

And about force choke. Dooku is an accomplished duellist, smart duellist and arrogant duellist. Do you think he is just going to stand there and get choked to death like some mere Imperial Commander? No. He may be caught of guard but he will recover, and break Vaders concentration thus breaking the hold. Force lightning or a saber throw may be sufficent by itself.

Good night. I've got to get some rest. I have to take two tests this weekend which will be factors in determining which high school I go to. Wish me luck!

By the way, Ox? I know someone (although not very well) who knows C. Lee.

Lucky!!! Now im jealous lol. 😠 😛

Good luck for the tests btw.

well his "arrogance" is what will get him caught in and killed by a force choke. You cant say that Dooku will undeniably break the hold, you have no proof to support such a claim.

Well im sorry, but I dont think it is stupid to assume that Dooku will attempt to break a life threatening hold. I personally find this more likely than Dooku just sitting back and letting Vader choke him to death.

right, but trying is one thing, doing it is completely different.

All Dooku has to do is break Vader's concentration. He could use force lightning, throw his saber, pick up and throw a surrounding object or even force push Vader. It wont be to difficult to do methinks. Especially from someone as strong as the Count.

Um vader has learnt not to force choke force users, why? because tsui choi cut his mask apart when he did,And vader learns from his mistakes and knows what not to do, especially against dooku whom is a challenge for vader.

Vader would strike with force crush, dooku is immobalise, end of story.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=77&page=064 see this link and it proves how powerful vaders attacks are

Originally posted by Kadesh
Um vader has learnt not to force choke force users, why? because tsui choi cut his mask apart when he did,

I don't recall him necessarily choking Tsui Choi, although he did almost get killed. He basically just suspended him in the air - nothing directly like a Force Choke, which is usually portrayed as the victim choking from what I've seen.

Vader would strike with force crush, dooku is immobalise, end of story

It's really not that clear and cut, Kadesh. I doubt that'd happen so easily, let alone with a Force crush. Can't Dooku also replicate this feat in the form of Force Grip? True, though, it is a lesser version of Crush, but whatever. Grievous survived a Force crush from Windu anyways, I doubt it'll just instantly freeze someone of Count Dooku's status.

Wookiepedia does say this:

"Darth Vader, who would not hesitate to use Force Crush and similar techniques on Imperial personnel that he deemed incompetent, might have even been able to Force Crush entire light class vehicles on the battlefield."

But I'd wonder where the source for that is. If it were true, maybe I'd have a different opinion; albeit, even so it's only a "might have been" anyways.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=77&page=064 see this link and it proves how powerful vaders attacks are [/B]

While I'd agree Vader's mastery over the Darkside may be a notch or two above Dooku's own, I'd submit trying to take Dooku via the Force wouldn't necessarily have the same outcome as the above comic shows.

In that comic, we see Vader Force push a non-Force user (and what appears to be a common thug) through a wall. Somewhat impressive, but not as impressive when you consider a comparative weakling to Dooku - Obi-Wan - was able to Force push Grievous in a similiar fashion; albeit not through a wall.

Dooku has indeed shown an impressive display of power over Obi-Wan, as the Revenge of the Sith novelization goes on about:

"He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall."

It'd pretty apparent that Dooku isn't necessarily going to be tooled, let alone handled by some Force attacks from Darth Vader. He's not noted as "one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history" and "an even greater Sith" for nothing. Yoda even comments on his power noting him as the student who:

- Has the most power.
- Is the wisest.
- Is the most knowledgable in the ways of the Force.

Though, I'd probably say that was before Anakin came about (when speaking about Dooku). Most likely before he left the Order he is referring to. Anyways, the apparent ease of which he tools Kenobi is pretty sufficient in my book to be able to fend off Vader, and the fact he took out Kenobi in only 13 accumulated seconds of lightsaber clashing. As well, he did manhandle Asajj Ventress, he - with one finger - brought Ventress down to her knees:

"Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain. Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor. "

While Asajj isn't t3h ub3r force goddess, I would call what he's done with her "childsplay" (and not the movie). Against Anakin in AOTC, he's also shown his impressive mastery, the narration even compares the effects of his Force push to a stone wall:

"Dooku's hand shot out toward the charging Jedi, sending forth a Force push as solid as any stone wall, and a burst of blue Force lightning. With a wave of his hand, Dooku sent Anakin flying across the room, to crash into a distant wall, where he slumped down, dazed.

Also note that Dooku has shown the ability to Force Choke as well, using it on Komari Vosa in Bounty Hunter (but I'm sure you all knew he could anyways, lol). He was able to own Sora Bulq, and knock him out with Force lightning:

And I'd surmise that knocking master of Vaapad, Sora Bulq, unconscious for a relatively long time is no small feat, and speaks well for his prowess as a lightning user. He did that while battling against two foes, the other was Master Tholme, who is no weak shit himself, but is utterly tooled, and at Dooku's mercy one page after.

However, I'd still warrant that Vader is more powerful in the Force by a small margin (I wouldn't go as so far as to say "huge gap of power"😉. In terms of dueling, though, Vader in the OT is a slow, hunk of metal as seen throughout the various duels according to Ushgarak, so I'd hand a lightsaber battle to Dooku in that aspect. Admittedly, though, I'm not so totally sure that he's that slow, but Ushgarak is usually right (or can't be wrong rather) - so I'm only basing my decision off that.

While Djem So's advantage over Makashi is that Makashi is "unable to meet Djem So head on", it's nothing too extreme or even deciding. In the Insider Issue 62 article, entitled Fightsaber, Vaapad is described as "more open and kinetic" than Form V, yet Dooku tooled Sora with relative ease.

Perhaps, Anakin's pure strength had something to do with that though, and Vader > Anakin physically due to his artificial limbs, and cybernetics, but Dooku is still portrayed as being much faster (contending with Yoda after fighting Anakin and Obi-Wan), and his dueling skills are nothing short of impressive, among the best.

I'm still undecided as for who would win in an overall match between Vader and Dooku, but whatever, I don't really care - some general input to get my out of my debating hiatus. 😛

well the source about vader being able to crush tanks on the battle field came from Eaw, and Quite frankly even if dooku choked vader, vader could counter with TK by throwing his lightsaber or prehaps a different attack.
i dont see how dooku could defend against a force crush. I mean like if he could crush tanks, i dont see why he cant crush a force user, and i doubt dooku knows force shield like the one luke demonstrated in DE. And already crush is potrayed to be a devastating force attack as proven in Kotor2, no im not exactly using game mechanics here. But if you played Eaw, you would see vader could destroy tanks with ease.
Because you see, vaders force crush is unlike windus, vader uses rage and anger and he exerts alot of power, And crush appears around the outline of your body i assume and it pushes down to its centre. Especially against dooku whom he would not underestimate, he would fight with seriousness,
And being faster does not mean you can kill your slower enemy easier, He fought tsui choi in the purge who was far faster than He is and he also killed the Dark woman, whom is a very powerful jedi master and if i recalled vader uses his sorroundings to his advantage, like during the dark woman battle, he pulled the waterfall to drown the dark woman for a split second so he could jump forward and attack

I saw no such trick in the Dark Woman battle, Kadesh...

And provide an instance where Crush is shown to be devastating in KOTOR2 that isn't game mechanics.

If Vader is so skilled at force crush as you say, why did he not use it against more of his enemies. Why not kill the emperor with it, as Vader was planning to overthrow him anyway? Why not use it against Kenobi in ANH who was a hugely formiddable opponent in his own right? If this move is as almighty as you are makin it out to be I dont see why Vader didnt just use it willy nilly. Could he not have force crushed several of those X-Wings out of the air in ANH? I mean, they were about to cause the destruction of the galaxies most powerful creation, and there was no apparent threat to Vader while he was in his aircraft - after all he was flanked by two Tie's. It should have been easy for Vader just to knock a couple of those Rebel Pilots out of the sky.

I think you are giving Vader far to much credit based from one move. Force crush alone does not ensure Vader the victory - especially when I see it as very unlikely he will use the move anyway.

As well as the fact that it must require quite a bit of focus to perform such a feat...

Originally posted by Kadesh
well the source about vader being able to crush tanks on the battle field came from Eaw,

Obviously, as we didn't see Vader crushing too many vehicles in the movies. 😛 But the direct quote, and which comic/novel/etc. it came from is what I wanted to know.

and Quite frankly even if dooku choked vader, vader could counter with TK by throwing his lightsaber or prehaps a different attack.

And the same cannot be applied for Count Dooku? That's pretty much cutting double standards in the sense that Vader, in my book, isn't leagues above Dooku to the point where he can tool him a la DE Sidious, or NJO Luke for example.

I don't see how if Vader could escape a Force grapple used by Dooku, Dooku cannot escape one down by Vader. While it's true Vader has roughly 10 more years experience with the Darkside, Dooku has an estimated 40 more years experience overall with the Force, granted majority spent with the Lightside. It is worth noting, however, that he is described as even more powerful as a Sith Lord, which - added to his already praised skill - speaks well.

i dont see how dooku could defend against a force crush. I mean like if he could crush tanks, i dont see why he cant crush a force user, and i doubt dooku knows force shield like the one luke demonstrated in DE

1.) The source that mentioned Vader being able to "crush light vehicles" is from Wookiepedia, no direct given source. Even if you were to find the source (which I doubt exists), it is still only a "maybe", which could equate to hyperbole.

2.) What I'm saying is that it's highly doubtful it'll be so easy as to apply one Force maneuver, and beat Dooku given his prowess in the Force.

3.) A comparative weakling to Dooku from the TOTJ era, Tott Donetta, was able to replicate Luke's power:

At least, I believe you are referring to Luke blasting AT-AT fire or something like that. I wouldn't say that he [Dooku] has to necessarily possess that specific power, but it's clear that if a Force push can be resisted, some other powers may be as well. Or rather, just able to be countered.

The lesser version of Crush, Force grip, can be countered, I believe anyways. I doubt Force Crush is infallible, let alone the what - one instance Vader used it on an officer?

4.) Rex also brings up a good point of concentration. I doubt he'll stop mid-duel while lightsabers are a'blazing to pull a move he's demonstrated - to my knowledge - once.

It's not going to be that easy for Vader, and the same goes for Dooku with his Force attacks. It definitely won't be so clear and cut as you and others make it out to be.

Because you see, vaders force crush is unlike windus, vader uses rage and anger and he exerts alot of power, And crush appears around the outline of your body i assume and it pushes down to its centre.

Force Crushes don't really "differ", at least in the sense you are talking about. Windu's power is apparent, and his Force skills are nothing short of amazing, I'd say. To think that Windu wouldn't exert a multitude of power is pretty asinine, especially against someone like Grievous, who Yoda acknowledges as a enormous threat to the Jedi and Republic.

Vader's crush may be more powerful, but it's the fact that Windu - who is known to be a considerable Force user - used it on a non-Force using being, and he survived with lung damage. It didn't kill him.

And the "outline" is only shown in KOTOR from what I've seen, however, it does "push down" I suppose, but again - that's not to say it'll be the end all, be all solution to Dooku.

And being faster does not mean you can kill your slower enemy easier, He fought tsui choi in the purge who was far faster than He is

It's the fact that his lightsaber skills are already considerably excellent, and arguably on par with Vader's own. Vader is not as good as a duelist as Anakin, so please do not use the same rehashed argument of "Anakin beat Dooku before, Vader can do it!".

Anyways, he did not fight Tsui Choi constantly during Purge. He swung at Vader like one time to my recollection. As well, neither the Dark Woman nor Tsui Choi compare to Dooku in terms of dueling, and I'd even argue speed, as well. Vader's saber skills aren't as good as they were, sorry to say. He could not keep up with Dooku in a pure lightsaber match. I don't doubt he'd put up a good fight, but I'd say he'd ultimately lose in the end.

Kudos to Advent for making mention of the Rexmeister. eyes

Plus, you don't really see people in the movies clashing swords and suddenly whip out lightning or something like that. Dooku's choke-and-kick maneuver in ROTS was the only case of that, and he had an opening.

Something like Crush is hardly going to have an opportunity mid-duel.