Originally posted by manjaro
not to try to poke holes or anything ,but i clearly remember no one falling harder to mastermind's illusions' than Jean herself 📖
You mean Mastermind with the aid of Emma...right? 😕 But completely off the point since we're addressing Storms so called resistance to psi-force bolts and psi-fries..which she has yet to demonstrate...and on panel evidence has shown her go down to both.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You mean Mastermind with the aid of Emma...right? 😕 But completely off the point since we're addressing Storms so called resistance to psi-force bolts and psi-fries..which she has yet to demonstrate...and on panel evidence has shown her go down to both.
And Ex, my friend, you're beating a dead horse. TPs have shown time and time again that they can bypass people's willpower to manipulate the brain itself:
Rachel did it to Storm.
Emma did it to the crowd in NXM.
Jean turned off Meme's mind.
Jean turned off Thunderbird's powers.
The list goes on. Writers don't like to employ that aspect of TPs powers too much, because it gives them an almost unbeatable edge.
Oh, and don't forget that Jean had the upper hand in the fight in #269 until she decided to give Storm the option of surrender. Even after Storm did her worst, it was Jean that saved Storm from crashing.
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
With a device that implanted the images directly into her brain, no less. Guess they figured they couldn't get to Phoenix any other way...And Ex, my friend, you're beating a dead horse. TPs have shown time and time again that they can bypass people's willpower to manipulate the brain itself:
Rachel did it to Storm.
Emma did it to the crowd in NXM.
Jean turned off Meme's mind.
Jean turned off Thunderbird's powers.The list goes on. Writers don't like to employ that aspect of TPs powers too much, because it gives them an almost unbeatable edge.
Oh, and don't forget that Jean had the upper hand in the fight in #269 until she decided to give Storm the option of surrender. Even after Storm did her worst, it was Jean that saved Storm from crashing.
Yeah I see your point...I mean after that last comment of his..I'm lost for words...first Exodus...then Magneto...then the Entire Old School Inner Circle...next he'll be saying Storm can beat Wonder Women or the Silver Surfer.
At one point, didn't Jean hold the Juggernaut at bay by herself for a while? And she kicked Sabertooths ass but good in a one shot with the original xmen a while a go. She held up a city when magneto tried to drop it on the xmen at illyanas funeral i think it was. So Exactly when did storm be able to beat Jean. This discussion should have lasted exacty one page.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You mean Mastermind with the aid of Emma...right? 😕 But completely off the point since we're addressing Storms so called resistance to psi-force bolts and psi-fries..which she has yet to demonstrate...and on panel evidence has shown her go down to both.
LOL! I am always surprised at this. You are willing to see the circumstances with the Phoenix Force, but not with Ororo. In Uncanny 175, Mastermind AMBUSHED the X-Men with his illusion. Likewise, he ambushed the PF. However, once the X-Men realized that Mastermind was manipulating them, he lost the ability to control them. Storm was also the first X-Man to see through the illusion. In this Storm vs. Jean battle, we are not giving Jean the advantage of an ambush. No dice.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
At one point, didn't Jean hold the Juggernaut at bay by herself for a while? And she kicked Sabertooths ass but good in a one shot with the original xmen a while a go. She held up a city when magneto tried to drop it on the xmen at illyanas funeral i think it was. So Exactly when did storm be able to beat Jean. This discussion should have lasted exacty one page.
Jean Grey never did any of those things. You are thinking about that Astroid M or what-have-you that was Magneto's base. Magneto was still holding it up, but as he was being defeated by the X-Men, his grip on it was slipping. Jean tried to use her TK to back his magnetism, but she was way too weak.
In regards to Jean vs. Juggernaut, she told him that she could hold him in her TK grip long enough for the other x-Men to arrive. That would have taken only seconds at best. Juggernaut did not put it to the test as he was seeking the help of the X-Men.
Jean Grey struggles with planes on a regular level. This places her far below Storm.
Originally posted by Rutog98
[B]LOL! I am always surprised at this. You are willing to see the circumstances with the Phoenix Force, but not with Ororo. In Uncanny 175, Mastermind AMBUSHED the X-Men with his illusion. Likewise, he ambushed the PF. However, once the X-Men realized that Mastermind was manipulating them, he lost the ability to control them. Storm was also the first X-Man to see through the illusion. In this Storm vs. Jean battle, we are not giving Jean the advantage of an ambush. No dice.
Aided by Machinery...come again? CF is right...you're grasping for straws...well from your Inner Circle, Magneto and Exodus comments I think it's safe to say..that your opinion on these boards has hit rock bottom along with your so called debating skills.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
What sides? There's people who know Storm stands no chance against Magneto alone, and then there's you. He generated a global EMP in and of his own power. The Earth's EM field is already out of it's natural state, Magneto altered it long ago to limit the ability of telepaths.
Magneto has never accomplished this global thing you are talking about. That is what I just addressed. In the issue you are referring to, the EM fields were warped to the extreme where Magneto could not even use his powers within the Earth's atmosphere without getting killed by those very same EM fields. He blasted the fields while they were warped to this extreme. When I said "natural" state, it was a gross understatment on my part.
In his next story arc, "Magneto War," Magneto wanted to cause a planetary blackout and had to use a machine to boost his powers to that level. This really hurts your argument as you cannot say that Magneto was written down here because there were very special circumstances surrounding the state of the plantery EM fields in the earlier arc you are trying to use prior to his blasting it.
Show me where Magneto pulled a global blackout without the aid of a machine boosting his powers or where the EM fields were skewed to such an extreme where he could not even use his powers within the planetary atmosphere before blasting it. You won't be able to do this. 😄
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Aided by Machinery...come again? CF is right...you're grasping for straws...well from your Inner Circle, Magneto and Exodus comments I think it's safe to say..that your opinion on these boards has hit rock bottom along with your so called debating skills.
Okay, you need to understand a character if you are going to debate him or her. From what I gather here, you don't understand Mastermind very well. In DPS, Mastermind used a machine to gain access into Jean's mind because he was not a telepath. However, later on, he somehow got the ability to reach into people's mind and do his illusions. Mastermind caught Phoenix unawares here. Had she been prepared, it never would have worked.
If that is not what you are referring to, then you must be referring to my Storm/Mastermind thing. If so, you are really grasping at straws and trying to misread my posts. Where in the world did I state any use of machinery with the Mastermind arc? The only character I am going on about machinery with is Magneto. Get it straight so you can sound more intelligent in your rebuttles. As in the case of Phoenix, Mastermind was able to manipuate Storm and the X-Men here because he caught them by surprise. Once they were made aware of the deception, as in the case of Phoenix, he lost the ability to manipulate them.
Either way, you lose.
If you go back and reread my post with Mastermind
Originally posted by Rutog98
Okay, you need to understand a character if you are going to debate him or her. From what I gather here, you don't understand Mastermind very well. In DPS, Mastermind used a machine to gain access into Jean's mind because he was not a telepath. However, later on, he somehow got the ability to reach into people's mind and do his illusions. Mastermind caught Phoenix unawares here. Had she been prepared, it never would have worked.If that is not what you are referring to, then you must be referring to my Storm/Mastermind thing. If so, you are really grasping at straws and trying to misread my posts. Where in the world did I state any use of machinery with the Mastermind arc? The only character I am going on about machinery with is Magneto. Get it straight so you can sound more intelligent in your rebuttles. As in the case of Phoenix, Mastermind was able to manipuate Storm and the X-Men here because he caught them by surprise. Once they were made aware of the deception, as in the case of Phoenix, he lost the ability to manipulate them.
Either way, you lose.
If you go back and reread my post with Mastermind
I'm taking about the Machinery he used to enter the Phoenixs' mind because her mind was so powerful. The Machinery was created by Emma Frost...Masterminds telepathy is special but limited...just like Bogans.
Mastermind could always enter peoples minds and create Illusions, right from his first appearance as a Brotherhood member...I think it's you who needs to understand the character.
The point being Mastermind needed a machine to catch the Phoenix with his illusions....he didn't need one to breach Storms Psi-Defenses because she's not a powerful telepath.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Dubbiduu...like I said, seeking an ownining.You do realize that Storm's power is to control the weather? Thus, stopping a hurricane in it's tracks isn't much of a feat, seeing as that is her power...
Oh here is just one example...Magneto EMP's the whole planet, to disable the failsafes humans have put to his power.
http://img279.imageshack.us/img279/3365/magcutsaswath8vm.jpgEhh, how is Storm going to stop something she has no way of deflecting? Magneto, EFFORTLESSLY, punched through an entire mountain.
Hurricane stopping doesn't really help her, SINCE MAGNETO ISN'T GOING TO ATTACK HER WITH WEATHER.
Oh, Magneto, after having had his powers for about five minutes killed every living being besides his wife on miles radius with a thought. Storm can't do anything.
Magneto beats Storm 10/10, with ease, nothing your fanboyness can muster changes that.
Big deal. Storm has effortlessly punched her way out of a mountain too. Thing is, Storm's method is far more dangerous. You will find lots of metals in mountains. Magneto's powers can exert great force against metals. In effect, the more metal, the more forceful his power. Storm can exert that kind of force against anything regardless of its composition. Besides, we already know from Uncanny 150, for Magneto to anchor himself against her tornado taxes him greatly. This was stated unequivocally in the issue. He's not going to have the concentration to even attempt a blast like this (and it would be nowhere near that forceful against Storm as she has nowhere near the amount of metal in her that mountain does). Storm, on the other hand, can pull that tornado plus other attacks at the same time. Check out Uncanny 153 where she battled the Sidri. They merged into a sky-scraper-sized creature. Storm was very tired, yet she summoned a tornado that engulfed it and battered it mercilessly and at the same time, struck it with numerous continual bolts of lightning from the sky. This attack followed the Sidri wherever it flew.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I'm taking about the Machinery he used to enter the Phoenixs' mind because her mind was so powerful. The Machinery was created by Emma Frost...Masterminds telepathy is special but limited...just like Bogans.
Mastermind could always enter peoples minds and create Illusions, right from his first appearance as a Brotherhood member...I think it's you who needs to understand the character.
The point being Mastermind needed a machine to catch the Phoenix with his illusions....he didn't need one to breach Storms Psi-Defenses because she's not a powerful telepath.
Mastermind never breached Storm's psi defenses. He never did because he caught her by surprise thus he encountered no resistance. Storm does not have a psi shield like a telepath. Her willpower is an active combattant, not a passive one like a TP shield.
Also, did you read the dialog between Dark Phoenix and Mastermind? She asked how he was able to get into her mind when he's merely an illusionist? He had no telepathy, in other words, he cannot reach into your mind. Later on (or maybe he could do this, but could not in this arc), he could reach into a person's mind without a machine.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Dubbiduu...like I said, seeking an ownining.You do realize that Storm's power is to control the weather? Thus, stopping a hurricane in it's tracks isn't much of a feat, seeing as that is her power...
Oh here is just one example...Magneto EMP's the whole planet, to disable the failsafes humans have put to his power.
http://img279.imageshack.us/img279/3365/magcutsaswath8vm.jpgEhh, how is Storm going to stop something she has no way of deflecting? Magneto, EFFORTLESSLY, punched through an entire mountain.
Hurricane stopping doesn't really help her, SINCE MAGNETO ISN'T GOING TO ATTACK HER WITH WEATHER.
Oh, Magneto, after having had his powers for about five minutes killed every living being besides his wife on miles radius with a thought. Storm can't do anything.
Magneto beats Storm 10/10, with ease, nothing your fanboyness can muster changes that.
Okay, are you just being silly or are you serious?
On the account of your global EMP thing, you state that is but one instance. That instance is what I have discredited already. You are going to have to pull up another one. BTW, there isn't another one without a machine to help him out.
Addressing the second half of your post, the whole point of me bringing up Storm stopping a hemisphere-sized hurricane is to illustrate the amount of energies she is able to wield. Storm and Magneto both have the same power base: Earth. What it comes down to is who can access more of its resources between the two. They each have powers that can beat the other depending on this. Storm being able to tap into enough power to alter half the globe's ecosystem (especially for a hurricane that size at that is an INCREDIBLE amount of energy) places her far beyond anything Magneto can and has done. What you fail to realize is she can use this energy to power her storms and make them unusually strong. Hence, she has often times generated winds FAR greater than any hurricane or tornado you will find. Even if Storm and Magneto can access the same amount of power (and they cannot, she outpowers him badly), she still has a major advantage in a fight as her powers are inherently more violent and destructive than his.
Your whole point about Magneto having an easy victory is totally ridiculous as he has stated in canon that she could beat him if she did not hold back. To boot, she has demonstrated much higher power levels than he has.
Originally posted by Rutog98
Mastermind never breached Storm's psi defenses. He never did because he caught her by surprise thus he encountered no resistance. Storm does not have a psi shield like a telepath. Her willpower is an active combattant, not a passive one like a TP shield.Also, did you read the dialog between Dark Phoenix and Mastermind? She asked how he was able to get into her mind when he's merely an illusionist? He had no telepathy, in other words, he cannot reach into your mind. Later on (or maybe he could do this, but could not in this arc), he could reach into a person's mind without a machine.
Storms only defense against telepathy is her resistance to deeper probing...which is natural....and her will which helps her resist certain telepathic attacks...the point being the Illusion worked on her...and it took a very long time for her to realize that it was an illusion.
Exactly Mastermind was never a proper telepath that's why I said his telepathy was special but limited. Limited to illusions just like Lady Mastermind and Bogan(Whose limited to mind control). The machinery helped him breach the Phoenixs defences.
His telepathy is specialized...
In the first Uncanny X-Men comics when Magneto formed his brotherhood Mastermind was able to invade peoples minds in order to use his power of illusion casting.
His power of illusion casting is a psi-power. It's always been one...the machinery was only used because the Phoenix is a powerful psi herself.
[QUOTE=7894003]Originally posted by Rutog98
In regards to Jean vs. Juggernaut, she told him that she could hold him in her TK grip long enough for the other x-Men to arrive. That would have taken only seconds at best. Juggernaut did not put it to the test as he was seeking the help of the X-Men.
I have that issue. Jean said to Cain that she had undergone a few changes herself and that she has more than enough power to hold him in place until the others arrive. I think Jean wasn't lying because she knows exactly how strong Juggernaut is and how her tk power during that time will stand against him. And even if the tk bind won't last very long it's still a feat to hold Juggernaut in place even for just a short moment. Im not sure if Storm's winds can do the same.
Originally posted by Rutog98You say extreme. On panel says "just enough". You say blasted the mesh. On panel says "swath across the Earth's EM field." Noticing a pattern here?
Magneto has never accomplished this global thing you are talking about. That is what I just addressed. In the issue you are referring to, the EM fields were warped to the extreme where Magneto could not even use his powers within the Earth's atmosphere without getting killed by those very same EM fields. He blasted the fields while they were warped to this extreme. When I said "natural" state, it was a gross understatment on my part.In his next story arc, "Magneto War," Magneto wanted to cause a planetary blackout and had to use a machine to boost his powers to that level. This really hurts your argument as you cannot say that Magneto was written down here because there were very special circumstances surrounding the state of the plantery EM fields in the earlier arc you are trying to use prior to his blasting it.
Show me where Magneto pulled a global blackout without the aid of a machine boosting his powers or where the EM fields were skewed to such an extreme where he could not even use his powers within the planetary atmosphere before blasting it. You won't be able to do this. 😄
Without the mesh, Magneto flies into the upper atmosphere and "cuts a swath across the Earth's EM field" and it does nothing? Utter BS. Storm has never done anything on a global scale without being in an altered state of mind. If she tried to lift Asteroid M she'd die of mental strain before she was crushed beneath it.
Exodus Cloak, I am going to address your post here:
Of course Storm has to concentrate to use her powers. Just about everyone does. The point of 269 is to demonstrate how Jean has to concentrate harder. You were trying to put TP and TK together as this instantaneous thing, but you fell apart. Now you are trying to say that this is only for TK and not TP. Its for psis, period. Jean has lost to Ororo everytime they fought. Storm beat the TP Jean during Revolution in the 2000's doing something similar to this. Also, you comment on how Jean was not trying to kill Ororo and could have snapped her neck at the beginning, well, you forget to mention that Storm got in the first attack. She created a thunderstorm. Had Ororo been going for the kill, she could have levelled the lightning at Jean Grey.
You are trying to say it takes seconds for Storm's powers to work. That's silly. In that instance, yet, but other books have stated "in the literal blink of an eye." Blink your eye and see how fast that action is. See how fast your eye lids go up and down.
Jean working on a subconscious level is nothing. All characters have done that before. I can remember Storm summoned a hurricane with less than a conscious thought to put out a fire.
I can't believe you tried to use Uncanny 459 to prove that Jean can access her powers easier than Ororo. Look, you will never prove that. Uncanny 269 takes that from you. In this issue, IIRC, Storm was just pulled to another planet. She was unable to manipulate the forces there as she has to adjust/get attuned to a new planet's ecosystem upon arrival. Stop trying to be the trickster. I know my history too well to fall for it especially where this character is concerned.
In regards to Uncanny 150 aned Magneto, there was no retcons there at all. What the issue shows, regardless of what you say, is that willpower can resist mindblasts as well. Even if there is a retcon for the issue (and there is not), it still shows what willpower can do. All a retcon will serve is to weaken Magneto's will. What I am using the issue to demonstrate is that when CC wrote his willpower stuff, his intentions was for it to battle mindblasts too. This issue does it.
You also need to get off of Banshee getting up before Ororo. That's just laughable. The issue states for sure that Storm was stronger than Banshee or anyone else. Read what the Warskrull said and stop looking only at the pretty pictures. Banshee fell immediately to the blast. Ororo took time, hence, she was subject to a longer mindblast. Again, Jean Grey's TP is a joke compared to Shadow King or Xavier. This guy had Xavier's, Psylocke's, and Oracle's powers all at once. For Storm to offer this resistance against him places her far beyond Jean's powers.
BTW, where did you get Bogan was limited? From what was stated on-panel, I recall it being said he was a psi on Xavier's level. You are desperate. He not only had his powers, but Rache's added to his own and Storm laughed him off.
You disagree with me on Uncanny 152. I intentionally left some of my analysis off to see if you were intelligent enough to catch the details. I see you were not so now I am going to fill you in:
Here is what I said:quote:
just so happened that Ororo grew a stronger will by 152 and it was too much for Emma's TP. Emma was going on a previous encounter thinking that Ororo could not resist her TP.
And you responded with:
quote:
just so happened that Ororo grew a stronger will by 152 and it was too much for Emma's TP. Emma was going on a previous encounter thinking that Ororo could not resist her TP.
Utter BS...speculation on your part. Wasn't stated anywhere.
I am going to address this in my next, "To be continued" post.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You say extreme. On panel says "just enough". You say blasted the mesh. On panel says "swath across the Earth's EM field." Noticing a pattern here?Without the mesh, Magneto flies into the upper atmosphere and "cuts a swath across the Earth's EM field" and it does nothing? Utter BS. Storm has never done anything on a global scale without being in an altered state of mind. If she tried to lift Asteroid M she'd die of mental strain before she was crushed beneath it.
Exactly. "Just enough to make it suicidal for Magneto to use his powers within the Earth's atmosphere." And he cut a swath in those same EM fields while they were in that state. Your argument does not hold because Magneto War irrefutably demonstrates that Magneto cannot cause a global blackout with his powers alone. You cannot use this issue to refute that because those EM fields were warped to an extreme where the Master of Magnetism could not use his powers within range of it.
Originally posted by psy_blade
[QUOTE=7894003]Originally posted by Rutog98In regards to Jean vs. Juggernaut, she told him that she could hold him in her TK grip long enough for the other x-Men to arrive. That would have taken only seconds at best. Juggernaut did not put it to the test as he was seeking the help of the X-Men.
I have that issue. Jean said to Cain that she had undergone a few changes herself and that she has more than enough power to hold him in place until the others arrive. I think Jean wasn't lying because she knows exactly how strong Juggernaut is and how her tk power during that time will stand against him. And even if the tk bind won't last very long it's still a feat to hold Juggernaut in place even for just a short moment. Im not sure if Storm's winds can do the same.
Okay, I officially no longer respect Jean Grey either. Thor can't even stop Juggernaut with his godblast. The issue gave the blast enough power to hurl Galactus out of our solar system and specifically stated that Thor hit Juggernaut with this kind of power. all it did was inch him back towards a portal which he was eventually forced into because of the force of the blast. Neither Storm nor Jean can hold him can knock him back. I no longer respect Jean because they are weakening characters when they go against her. Jean Grey has no business challenging people like Storm or Juggernaut by herself.
Originally posted by Rutog98
Exodus Cloak, I am going to address your post here:Of course Storm has to concentrate to use her powers. Just about everyone does. The point of 269 is to demonstrate how Jean has to concentrate harder. You were trying to put TP and TK together as this instantaneous thing, but you fell apart. Now you are trying to say that this is only for TK and not TP. Its for psis, period. Jean has lost to Ororo everytime they fought. Storm beat the TP Jean during Revolution in the 2000's doing something similar to this. Also, you comment on how Jean was not trying to kill Ororo and could have snapped her neck at the beginning, well, you forget to mention that Storm got in the first attack. She created a thunderstorm. Had Ororo been going for the kill, she could have levelled the lightning at Jean Grey.
No it never said anything about Jean needing to concentrate HARDER. Storm "sucker punched" Jean in that fight.
No I'm saying telepathy is thought and execution. Telekinesis from the Psylocke scan is effectively thought and execution as the execution occurs at the speed of light.
Jeans powers work faster...telepathy is faster...the execution part of telekinesis occurs at the speed of light....Storms powers occur in seconds/blink of an eye...there's you lag.
You are trying to say it takes seconds for Storm's powers to work. That's silly. In that instance, yet, but other books have stated "in the literal blink of an eye." Blink your eye and see how fast that action is. See how fast your eye lids go up and down.
It's relative....blink of an eye...my scan gives a better scope at the speed of her power. The scan says seconds...a blink of an eye can also occur in seconds...go figure.
I can't believe you tried to use Uncanny 459 to prove that Jean can access her powers easier than Ororo. Look, you will never prove that. Uncanny 269 takes that from you. In this issue, IIRC, Storm was just pulled to another planet. She was unable to manipulate the forces there as she has to adjust/get attuned to a new planet's ecosystem upon arrival. Stop trying to be the trickster. I know my history too well to fall for it especially where this character is concerned.
Which part in UXM are you taking about...? I'm referring to the part where Rachel shut off Storms mind. And used her powers against her...written by Chris Claremont...nuff said.
In regards to Uncanny 150 aned Magneto, there was no retcons there at all. What the issue shows, regardless of what you say, is that willpower can resist mindblasts as well. Even if there is a retcon for the issue (and there is not), it still shows what willpower can do. All a retcon will serve is to weaken Magneto's will. What I am using the issue to demonstrate is that when CC wrote his willpower stuff, his intentions was for it to battle mindblasts too. This issue does it.
Again for the fourth time the scan doesn't say it's a mind blast...
The second time when he's not resisting it does...and that's because of the added protection from the helmet.
Plus the retcons change all that...
You also need to get off of Banshee getting up before Ororo. That's just laughable. The issue states for sure that Storm was stronger than Banshee or anyone else. Read what the Warskrull said and stop looking only at the pretty pictures. Banshee fell immediately to the blast. Ororo took time, hence, she was subject to a longer mindblast. Again, Jean Grey's TP is a joke compared to Shadow King or Xavier. This guy had Xavier's, Psylocke's, and Oracle's powers all at once. For Storm to offer this resistance against him places her far beyond Jean's powers.
Ororo was floored as well...and Banshee got up first....Ororo was still floored after this...you don't like it? Tough...
Mind Control..only mind control....not anything else.
BTW, where did you get Bogan was limited? From what was stated on-panel, I recall it being said he was a psi on Xavier's level. You are desperate. He not only had his powers, but Rache's added to his own and Storm laughed him off.
He needed Emma and Rachel to perform certain telepathic feats...he's only demonstrated mind control...because it's limited.
You disagree with me on Uncanny 152. I intentionally left some of my analysis off to see if you were intelligent enough to catch the details. I see you were not so now I am going to fill you in:Here is what I said:quote:
just so happened that Ororo grew a stronger will by 152 and it was too much for Emma's TP. Emma was going on a previous encounter thinking that Ororo could not resist her TP.And you responded with:
quote:
just so happened that Ororo grew a stronger will by 152 and it was too much for Emma's TP. Emma was going on a previous encounter thinking that Ororo could not resist her TP.Utter BS...speculation on your part. Wasn't stated anywhere.
I am going to address this in my next, "To be continued" post.
Uh yeah....it's speculation...because the type of attack she's using is NOT stated.
Her Psi-fry worked fine against Storm in X-treme.(Written by Chris Claremont)
Here is what I posted earlier:
One of the things CC did to establish this was her confrontation with the White Queen in Uncanny 151 and 152. I did not want to go into this earlier in this debate since it would have taken a lot of time to do so and I was feeling kind of lazy. lol. Anyway, there is more to this that my opponent on the interpretation of Uncanny 152 is seeing. Emma Frost's comment ot Ororo about her not being able to resist her TP came from the history of the two women during the Dark Phoenix Saga. Emma had ripped through Ororo's mind and tortured her. Emma was confident that she could kill Ororo in that fight. Storm banished or "killed" that storm in Uncanny 152. She stated how the storm will only be a memory by morning. Emma then stated that Ororo will be a memory as well and proceeded to mind attack her. In other words, Emma was going for the kill. She was not saying, "You will only be a memory tomorrow because I am going to give you a new personality and make you my servant." That interpretation is laughable at best. Keep in mind that the White Queen not only has a deep hatred for Ororo (which Storm definately returns in full if not greater measure), but she was very angry about losing the power to command the forces of nature. She prefered it greatly over mere telepathy. This was the first issue where we saw Storm best a psi. I believe that CC purposely used the White Queen to establish this since Emma is a much stronger character than Mesmero and was the first psi to truly best Ororo in the past. (Mesmero enslaved the entire team including a Phoenix-possessed Jean who was obviously a much stronger psi. Though the details of how he accomplished this feat was never revealed, he had to do it by surprise.) Emma was the perfect choice to reflect the change since what happened in the DP Saga was still afresh in everyone's mind. It gets people to take notice.
Okay, now I am going into more depth on this.
I know this was not "utter BS" because in Uncanny 151 (this was a two-issue story), there was a substantial allusion back to the DPS when Emma trumped Storm. The whole point of the story was to reflect growth in Storm as a character and it was reflected in her willpower.
The dialog between the two, "I know your mind as well as I know my own, you cannot resist my attack."
Storm, "Once,O Majesty of Evil, that may have been so, but no longer."
Emma Frost was not trying to mind control Storm in DPS nor is mental enslavement something she used in fights. She tended to go for the kill. Storm shrugged off Emma's mindblast. Plain and simple. In the DPS, the X-Men resisted Emma's mind bolt. That automatically blows your whole argument out of the water about willpower and mental dicipline not being able to fight those kinds of assaults. They may have lost, but they did resist.
BTW, I am not saying that Ororo can beat Magneto plus the Inner Circle together. Storm can beat the Inner Circle alone. Magneto vs. the Inner Circle is a 50/50. He can do it as well, but Storm can do it more easily.
Originally posted by Rutog98
Here is what I posted earlier:One of the things CC did to establish this was her confrontation with the White Queen in Uncanny 151 and 152. I did not want to go into this earlier in this debate since it would have taken a lot of time to do so and I was feeling kind of lazy. lol. Anyway, there is more to this that my opponent on the interpretation of Uncanny 152 is seeing. Emma Frost's comment ot Ororo about her not being able to resist her TP came from the history of the two women during the Dark Phoenix Saga. Emma had ripped through Ororo's mind and tortured her. Emma was confident that she could kill Ororo in that fight. Storm banished or "killed" that storm in Uncanny 152. She stated how the storm will only be a memory by morning. Emma then stated that Ororo will be a memory as well and proceeded to mind attack her. In other words, Emma was going for the kill. She was not saying, "You will only be a memory tomorrow because I am going to give you a new personality and make you my servant." That interpretation is laughable at best. Keep in mind that the White Queen not only has a deep hatred for Ororo (which Storm definately returns in full if not greater measure), but she was very angry about losing the power to command the forces of nature. She prefered it greatly over mere telepathy. This was the first issue where we saw Storm best a psi. I believe that CC purposely used the White Queen to establish this since Emma is a much stronger character than Mesmero and was the first psi to truly best Ororo in the past. (Mesmero enslaved the entire team including a Phoenix-possessed Jean who was obviously a much stronger psi. Though the details of how he accomplished this feat was never revealed, he had to do it by surprise.) Emma was the perfect choice to reflect the change since what happened in the DP Saga was still afresh in everyone's mind. It gets people to take notice.
Okay, now I am going into more depth on this.
I know this was not "utter BS" because in Uncanny 151 (this was a two-issue story), there was a substantial allusion back to the DPS when Emma trumped Storm. The whole point of the story was to reflect growth in Storm as a character and it was reflected in her willpower.
The dialog between the two, "I know your mind as well as I know my own, you cannot resist my attack."
Storm, "Once,O Majesty of Evil, that may have been so, but no longer."
Emma Frost was not trying to mind control Storm in DPS nor is mental enslavement something she used in fights. She tended to go for the kill. Storm shrugged off Emma's mindblast. Plain and simple. In the DPS, the X-Men resisted Emma's mind bolt. That automatically blows your whole argument out of the water about willpower and mental dicipline not being able to fight those kinds of assaults. They may have lost, but they did resist.
BTW, I am not saying that Ororo can beat Magneto plus the Inner Circle together. Storm can beat the Inner Circle alone. Magneto vs. the Inner Circle is a 50/50. He can do it as well, but Storm can do it more easily.
That's some serious reaching.
The previously on X-Men scan...is to show people who the heck the White Queen is.
Again it's speculation on your part because it doesn't state what type of attack it is.
"I know your mind as well as I know my own, you cannot resist my attack."
This line suggests mind control...
She has never shown resistance to a Psi-force bolt or a psi fry get over it...
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
That's some serious reaching.The previously on X-Men scan...is to show people who the heck the White Queen is.
Again it's speculation on your part because it doesn't state what type of attack it is.
"I know your mind as well as I know my own, you cannot resist my attack."
This line suggests mind control...
She has never shown resistance to a Psi-force bolt or a psi fry get over it...
All I have to do is show that willpower can resist that. Warskrull's attack was not a mind control or mental reading attack. It was a psiblast and Storm fought it.
In Uncanny 150, it shows with Magneto that willpower can fight off mindblasts as well. I don't care if you want to go with retcons or what have you, the fact was established. All a retcon would do is is give Magneto even more protection against psis, but it does not change that the issue shows what willpower can do. Anway, there is no retcon. What merely happened was the as time went on, more was added to the helmet. This is not something that was always there. Its called growth. In other words, if another character possesses willpower equal or greater to Magnteo's, they would not need a helmet or anything to win this fight.
BTW, in the 1986 Annual, Magneto was on Storm's team. It was the adults vs. the children.
In Uncanny 150, Magneto did not drop his force-field. It was up when she fired the bolts. The reason it was not up afterwards is because when next we saw him, he was engulfed in that tornado which had already smashed his force-field down.
Originally posted by Rutog98
All I have to do is show that willpower can resist that. Warskrull's attack was not a mind control or mental reading attack. It was a psiblast and Storm fought it.In Uncanny 150, it shows with Magneto that willpower can fight off mindblasts as well. I don't care if you want to go with retcons or what have you, the fact was established. All a retcon would do is weaken Magneto, but it does not change that the issue shows what willpower can do. In other words, if another character possesses willpower equal or greater to Magnteo's, they would not need a helmet or anything to win this fight.
BTW, in the 1986 Annual, Magneto was on Storm's team. It was the adults vs. the children.
The Skrull thing and the Magento thing..never stated what type of telepathic attack it was....hence your speculation.
Different types of telepathic attacks. It's like a Bolt of Lightning and a Blizzard...two very different things.
BTW He did drop his forcefield....hence the on panel art.
