Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Xorn wasn't Magneto. Magneto has EMPed the entire planet under his own power.
Magneto has never accomplished this. I believe you are referring to "Fatal Attraction," am I correct? In that issue, Forge had created an EM mesh around the planet that was so extensive had Magneto come within range of it, it would have turned his powers against him and killed him. Magneto blasted this mesh and it resulted in a global EMP. The EM fields were far from a normal state. Magneto would not be able to create the kind of circumstances that were present when he accomplished this feat. This is why in the "Magneto War," he had to use a machine to boost his powers when he tried to turn off the lights around the world.
Originally posted by Rutog98"So Magneto concentrates, muttering a silent prayer to a god he no longer believes in, and cuts a swath across the Earth's electromagnetic field like a battle-forged blade through soft flesh."
Magneto has never accomplished this. I believe you are referring to "Fatal Attraction," am I correct? In that issue, Forge had created an EM mesh around the planet that was so extensive had Magneto come within range of it, it would have turned his powers against him and killed him. Magneto blasted this mesh and it resulted in a global EMP. The EM fields were far from a normal state. Magneto would not be able to create the kind of circumstances that were present when he accomplished this feat. This is why in the "Magneto War," he had to use a machine to boost his powers when he tried to turn off the lights around the world.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
"So Magneto concentrates, muttering a silent prayer to a god he no longer believes in, and cuts a swath across the Earth's electromagnetic field like a battle-forged blade through soft flesh."
"At eleven fifty-five P.M., an electromagnetic explosion sent a pulse wave across the planet. In retaliating, Magneto has effectively rendered the mechanical and technological resources of this entire planet completely useless."
Forge wasn't in the issue at all.
The EMP was of Magneto's own making, and was independent of the defenses erected.
Thanks. Now, answer this: What motivated Magneto to blast the fields? Post what the issue stated. The issue specifically states the condition of the fields when he blasted. He blasted a HORRIBLY meshed EM field that was not in a natural state. It had been scrambled to the point that using his powers within range of it would have meant death for him. The fields were in a mesh because of a device Forge created that was employed as a counter measure against Magneto. Forge did not make an appearance in the issue, but the issue explains the condition the EM fields were in and why they were in that condition.
Originally posted by Rutog98
Okay, my turn...As far as Storm vs. Jean Grey, I do not have my issues with me. I just know its circa 267-273. Storm was in her child form, courtesy of Nanny. She and Jean battled in the danger room and that is where this happened. Jean has to concentrate harder than Ororo to bring her powers to bear. You are trying to omit the concentration factor that all telepaths much adhere to.
As far as Storm's powers working in seconds, there was an issue (Marvel Fanfare issue 3, I believe) where she and Sauron fought. Storm was so weakened by being drained by Sauron, yet when he and Storm faced each other cowboy style on the draw and all, Storm was quicker than Sauron and hit him with a blizzard. It does not take seconds for Sauron to try and hypnotize. In Uncanny 175, Storm summoned all of the elements at her command before anyone present could do anything. Mastermind was present and he was the villain in the story. He is a psi.
If I remember correctly, it was Rachel with the Phoenix Force that was on Cerebro. Anywhoo, you have to prove that Magneto was more succeptible to attacks when he was on Cerebro. He was no telepath under CC's pen as Uncanny 150 irrefutably states. Don't add a telepath's weakness to a non-psi. And Storm conquering her demons where Magneto FAILED to reflects a stronger mind.
In the 1986 Annual, Magneto was in Storm's group. The two groups were the X-Men and the New Mutants. Magneto was not in the New Mutants group. lol! That is why when the two teams fought, Magneto was on the X-Men side.
As for the retconning of Magneto's telepathy, it has no bearing here. Uncanny X-Men 150 firmly proves that willpower alone can fight off mental attacks besides just mind controlling and psi-probing. The issue stated that willpower alone was enough. There is no retcon that goes back to this issue and retcons it to the contrary. That's just a silly argument on your part. Heck, in Uncanny 277, Warskrull was mindblasting Storm and the X-Men. He was not trying to make slaves of them or read their thoughts. All he managed to do was subdue Storm temporarily as she would have broken his hold. This is a guy who had the combined powers of Xavier (a much stronger telepath than Jean Grey), Psylocke and Oracle (Shi'ar's most powerful telepath). Storm's willpower fought it.
In regards to the Xavier/Callisto thing, Storm has a much stronger natural resistance to TP than Callisto. There is no contesting this given the history between the two. Xavier made this comment with Callisto, so it really bolsters Ororo. Now, in regards to your 3 things, I will grant you on the first one. However, the other two, I disagree. Xavier will mindblast as he mindblasted Magneto in Uncanny 150.
In regards to Uncanny 150 and Xavier mindblasting Magneto in the middle of a fight between himself and the X-Men, he was unable to drop MAgneto at that time and Magneto's concentration became focused on him AFTER the mind attack had already commenced.
Also, can you tell me where in the story it states that Magneto's helmet added protection from TP assaults? This is something that came along afterwards. In this issue, Magneto fought Xavier off of willpower alone. There was no helmet blocking TP assaults. There was no telepathic Magneto fighting it off. The issue states willpower alone. If you don't like this, tough!
In regards to Storm vs. Emma, when Emma made that comment about knowing Ororo's mind as well as she knows her own, she said that because willpower can resist all TP assaults. You just don't want to accept it. Too bad. She underestimated Storm and was going by the Dark Phoenix Saga when she trumped Ororo and the X-Men. BTW, in the DP Saga, Emma used a mind bolt on them. It was not a mind control attack or a mind probe to read thoughts. She knocked them out and they did resist. It just so happened that Ororo grew a stronger will by 152 and it was too much for Emma's TP. Emma was going on a previous encounter thinking that Ororo could not resist her TP. What else did she say after that? Emma said that Storm would be just a memory by morning via the storm Ororo had banished just earlier. If somebody says that come tomorrow, you'll just be a memory, in other words, they are going to kill you. Emma was bloodthirsty and Storm became bloodthirsty. Emma lacked the power to carry through and Ororo was going to kill her with her bare hands. Emma lacked the power to stop her and Wolverine had to step in to save Emma.
Now, in regards to your TP scans, please post the issues. I am unable to see your scans. I am on these university computers and sometimes I am unable to see scans. I will caution you though. There is already sufficient proof in comics that reflects that Ororo can withstand TP assaults. She has proven her merit against the likes of Shadow King and psis more powerful than Xavier. She has done this kind of stuff multiple times. If you bring up stuff from the 90's, I am going to smash you down with that. Storm has been around 30 years. During the 7 years or so where Lobdell/Kelly/Seagle wrote, they wrote Storm without her indomitable will. They weakened her powers as well. On these boards and for the purposes of these debates, we do not go by write downs. In other words, if a character lifts a plane in one issue, yet in another issue they are unable to lift a car, we give credence to the plane. Same here. If a character resists the Shadow King yet falls to someone like Jean Grey, we give the Shadow King credence since they were written down for Ms. Grey. Trust me, I am very experienced in these debates. I am more than prepared for you telepathic issues you are trying to use against Ororo. Storm has proven her merit time and again. CC spent a lot of time developing her character in his initial 17 year run. Her willpower grew apace with it. That is why Emma's TP was able to stop Storm in Dark Phoenix Saga but not in 152. It reflected change and growth in the Storm character. One thing CC did was check and balance with the characters. In other words, he gave a special few non-telepathic characters means to combat telepathy. Otherwise, a telepath will always trump a non-telepath. This willpower that he worked hard to develop in a precious few characters is an expression of that. Storm exeplifies this at its zenith.
I am by no means stating that Ororo can't be taken by surprise by a telepath. If Jean managed a TP assault from ambush, she could very well take her out of a fight. However, we are debating where neither character is caught unawares.
Okay, now all of this said, Storm is a character like any other character. CC (and a few other writers) made her incredibly strong and nearly unbeatable. That means that she is going to be written down for some stories to work. For instance, Rachel should not have been able to control her powers like that in that one issue you mentioned. During "Schism," Rachel, who was possessed by Bogan, could not even touch Ororo's mind. She had not only her powers, but Bogan's added to hers as well. Earlier in that story, when Rachel tried to shut Storm's mind down, she was unable to. Storm said that she could beat Rachel, but she would have to kill her and was willing to kill Rachel along with her team and their enemies. Kurt had to knock her out. If Storm had only her willpower alone, Rachel could have done it as when Ororo was rendered unconscious, she noodled her way into Ororo's head so she could bypass most of her will. However, CC gave Ororo the added boost of electricity frying telepaths trying to assault her mind when Ororo is in-tuned with her powers. That should have stopped Rachel. However, for the sake of the story, that had to be ignored. For the sake of the debate, Storm has that power.
In regards to Storm smashing his force-field in Uncanny 150, she most certainly did. Where did he drop it? He had his force-field up when she fired her lightning at him. He told her how his oversight of her death may be his downfall, but her lightning alone will not defeat him. He had his force-field up during this. She then tells him, "They (referring to her biolightning bolts) are not the only weapons at my disposal and are far from my most powerful." At this point, you are saying that Magneto dropped his force-field so he could feel the full fury of whatever else she was going to do, right? LOL! She then whipped up a tornado. It smashed the force-field.
✅ Bringing in the bass 🤘
In response to Cosmic Flame:
This is not true. Okay, I am going to give a run down of Storm's history here and how her growth as a character was reflected in her growth in willpower as well.
When Storm first came into being, she was a very powerful as a mutant, but was easily bested by telepathy. While she could resist to a limited extent, a psi like the White Queen or Mesmero could easily best her. Hence in the Dark Phoenix Saga, Emma bested Storm, Wolverine and Colossus. After capturing the X-Men, she subjected Storm to mental torture and ripped through her mind. Ororo still tried to resist, but she was not strong enough.
Stay with me.
Upon the death of Jean Grey, Cyclops was changed. He left the team thus a new leader was required. Storm was appointed the role. This brought about major changes in the Storm character. She had misgivings at first, but she grew into the role and became much more confident and self-assured. Her willpower grew apace. One of the things CC did to establish this was her confrontation with the White Queen in Uncanny 151 and 152. I did not want to go into this earlier in this debate since it would have taken a lot of time to do so and I was feeling kind of lazy. lol. Anyway, there is more to this that my opponent on the interpretation of Uncanny 152 is seeing. Emma Frost's comment ot Ororo about her not being able to resist her TP came from the history of the two women during the Dark Phoenix Saga. Emma had ripped through Ororo's mind and tortured her. Emma was confident that she could kill Ororo in that fight. Storm banished or "killed" that storm in Uncanny 152. She stated how the storm will only be a memory by morning. Emma then stated that Ororo will be a memory as well and proceeded to mind attack her. In other words, Emma was going for the kill. She was not saying, "You will only be a memory tomorrow because I am going to give you a new personality and make you my servant." That interpretation is laughable at best. Keep in mind that the White Queen not only has a deep hatred for Ororo (which Storm definately returns in full if not greater measure), but she was very angry about losing the power to command the forces of nature. She prefered it greatly over mere telepathy. This was the first issue where we saw Storm best a psi. I believe that CC purposely used the White Queen to establish this since Emma is a much stronger character than Mesmero and was the first psi to truly best Ororo in the past. (Mesmero enslaved the entire team including a Phoenix-possessed Jean who was obviously a much stronger psi. Though the details of how he accomplished this feat was never revealed, he had to do it by surprise.) Emma was the perfect choice to reflect the change since what happened in the DP Saga was still afresh in everyone's mind. It gets people to take notice.
Then in Uncanny 159, you have the iron-willed Dracula. Not only does he have hypnotic powers, but he ambushed Storm and bit her. In biting a person, he gains a tremendous amount of control over them as they are affected by his vampirism. Add this to his hypnosis, and you really have quite an advasary. Well, eventhough Ororo was bitten, she still got up the willpower to best Dracula twice. He considered this impossible for anyone and was unable to regaincontrol.
There is another story circa Uncanny 211 where Storm is powerless. Malice attempts to gain control over Storm, but she proves to be too strong for her.
Storm's willpower was on a constant growth curve. by 1986, her willpower was stated to be the strongest of the X-Men. MAgneto was present in the story as he was on her team and on the page right before this. At the bottom of the page where this is stated, all of the X-Men's faces were shown. Magneto's was one of them. Keep in mind in Uncanny 150, Magneto's will was stated to be second to none.
In X-Men: Heroes for Hope, she once more proved her mettle as she was the only X-Man who bested The Entity. The Entity defeated Rachel with the Phoenix Force and Magneto. This is a tremendous show of will on Storm's part.
In New Mutants issue 34, Shadow King possessed Karma. This means that he not only had his abilities, but Karma's as well added to it. Even despite this, while Storm was powerless, the two fought. Though Shadow King plus Karma won, he stated that it was a near victory as she nearly bested him.
There was another issue where Psylocke, boosted by Cerebro, was unable to locate Storm or even establish TP contact with her. She shielded her mind from Betsy.
By the time we get into the mid 200s, Storm's will had grown so strong that it was impossible to control. Hence, nanny had to regress her to a child which resulted in her getting partial amnesia and weakened her powers. This made her more prone to control. However, even in this state, Storm proved to be enormously strong willed. Circa Uncanny 264-267, Shadow King assaulted her mind. Child-Storm proved to be strong enough to fight it off and struck him with a bolt of lightning.
(As a side note, Magneto and Shadow King fought off panel. Magneto won the fight, but it was a very costly victory for him.)
By the time we reach Uncanny 277, Storm and the X-Men were assaulted by the Warskrull who had the combined power of Xavier, Psylocke and Oracle. Warskrull was not interested in mind-controlling Storm in this issue. He wanted to kill her. He mind blasted the team in order to immobolize them. The others fell instantly, but Storm was too strong. He was barely able to hold her and stated that given time, she would break his hold. Therefore, he wanted Lilandra to chop off her head while he was still able to subdue Ororo. Obviously, he was not trying to read her thoughts here or make a slave out of her. So once more, the Jean fans argument that willpower can only fight mind reading and mental control is blown out of the water. He stated that he had never encountered so indomitable a will in a foe save for maybe Xavier. (In other words, it isquestionable if even Xavier's will is as strong as Storm's.)
During this time, Storm was going through her "Punk" stages. She was also finding true love for the first time in her life with Forge. Her outfits and looks were changing as frequently as the weather which reflected her changes of character.
After this, we have 7 years where Lobdell/Kelly/Seagle wrote and had every telepath from a lowly telepaths on up easily attack Storm's mind. The stripped her of her indomitable will.
However, after their run, Alan Davis came back and reestablished her indomitable will in the issue where the team tried to convince Galactus not to devour a planet populated by the Skrull.
CC then came back soon afterwards and eventually added to Storm the added protection against telepaths her electricity. We see in Schism where Bogan, a telepath strong enough to block Xavier while Xavier is boosted by Cerebra and sink his hooks into a telepath as powerful as Emma without her notice even takes possession of Rachel. Not only does he have his own immense powers, but Rachel's as well added to it. Storm and the X-Men battle Bogan-Rachel and his cronies. Storm positions herself to be the target of the telepath. When Bogan-Rachel attacks her mind, STorm smiles and states, "Do you know what happens to a telepath who enters my mind uninvited?" The electricity in her then fries Bogan-Rachel and takes him/her out of the fight.
Now that I have posted this, I would recommend that the guy who tried to post all of those scans not take the time to post the issue numbers for his rebuttle. I have firmly established with this post that Jean Grey cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, defeat Storm via her TP. She is no Bogan and certainly no Bogan-Rachel. She is no Shadow King or Xavier or Warskrull. Trying to post issues where Storm is hurt by a Morlock telepath is just plain silly as it is obviously a writing the character down. If we were discussing a strength character, if I brought up a number of issues where he/she can lift 18-wheel trucks, don't try and refute the evidence by bringing up issues where the character can't even lift a car. It would not have any credence.
Now, I have only discussed Ororo's willpower and telepathic defenses in this post. I have not addressed the enormous amount of power Storm can bring to bear in a fight offensively with her powers. Well, I have discussed it at length in the debate against Magneto. Obviously, a character with this kind of will who can pull the kind of power stunts I have brought up in the Storm vs. Magneto aspect of this thread is going to be written down in some issues even by CC. She's near unstoppable. In order for certain stories to unfold, she has to be weakened. This is a character who could beat anyone of the X-Men standard foes (ie. Magneto, Shadow King, Inner Circle, etc). And yes, she could likely trump the entire old-school Inner Circle (Shaw, Leland, Selene, Emma, Pierce) by herself. That Inner Circle would stand a much better chance against Magneto by himself than they would against Storm by herself. In a Storm vs. Inner Circe, Storm would have a the bigger advantage. I mean, they have no defense whatsover against her powers and lack any means to take her down quickly. Given time, they may be able to come out with a victory, but her powers are inherently too violent and will take them out immediately. One tornado and they are gone. Magneto, on the other hand, lacks the means to take them down quickly and they can wear them down with their 5-1 numbers. Plus, they are better able to fight off his attacks than they are Ororo's. I can defend this well. 🙂 So, now imagine a character like Storm backed by team member and put her up against x-villains. See what I am getting at? 😄
Originally posted by Rutog98"The mesh has skewed the planet's E-M field just enough to disrupt Magneto's mutant abilities within the parameters of Earth's atmosphere."
Thanks. Now, answer this: What motivated Magneto to blast the fields? Post what the issue stated. The issue specifically states the condition of the fields when he blasted. He blasted a HORRIBLY meshed EM field that was not in a natural state. It had been scrambled to the point that using his powers within range of it would have meant death for him. The fields were in a mesh because of a device Forge created that was employed as a counter measure against Magneto. Forge did not make an appearance in the issue, but the issue explains the condition the EM fields were in and why they were in that condition.
Originally posted by xmarksthespotHe did not attack the mesh as you try to imply. He attacked the Earth itself. The mesh was designed so that Magneto could not utilise his powers within Earth's atmosphere. You are trying to suggest that the mesh which limited his powers within Earth's atmosphere somehow enhanced his powers outside of Earth's atmosphere - which is baseless, speculative and counter-intuitive. He EMPed the planet in and of his own power. Something Storm has never and could never do. She stands no chance against Magneto alone, and she loses to Jean. Learn to deal.
"So Magneto concentrates, muttering a silent prayer to a god he no longer believes in, and cuts a swath across the Earth's electromagnetic field like a battle-forged blade through soft flesh."
"At eleven fifty-five P.M., an electromagnetic explosion sent a pulse wave across the planet. In retaliating, Magneto has effectively rendered the mechanical and technological resources of this entire planet completely useless."
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
"The mesh has skewed the planet's E-M field just enough to disrupt Magneto's mutant abilities within the parameters of Earth's atmosphere."He did not attack the mesh as you try to imply. He attacked the Earth itself. The mesh was designed so that Magneto could not utilise his powers within Earth's atmosphere. You are trying to suggest that the mesh which limited his powers within Earth's atmosphere somehow enhanced his powers outside of Earth's atmosphere - which is baseless, speculative and counter-intuitive. He EMPed the planet in and of his own power. Something Storm has never and could never do.
You misunderstand what I was saying. His powers were by no means enhanced by the mesh.
Here is what I wanted you to see:
"The mesh has skewed the planet's E-M field just enough to disrupt Magneto's mutant abilities within the parameters of Earth's atmosphere."
When Magneto blasted the EM fields, they were skewed to the extent where he could not use his powers within the parameters of the Earth's atmosphere. They were not in a natural state. In "Magneto War," he had to use a machine to pull this same stunt to augment his power. I'm sorry, but this does not help your side.
Originally posted by Rutog98What sides? There's people who know Storm stands no chance against Magneto alone, and then there's you. He generated a global EMP in and of his own power. The Earth's EM field is already out of it's natural state, Magneto altered it long ago to limit the ability of telepaths.
You misunderstand what I was saying. His powers were by no means enhanced by the mesh.Here is what I wanted you to see:
When Magneto blasted the EM fields, they were skewed to the extent where he could not use his powers within the parameters of the Earth's atmosphere. They were not in a natural state. In "Magneto War," he had to use a machine to pull this same stunt to augment his power. I'm sorry, but this does not help your side.
Originally posted by Rutog98
lol. That's nothing. I'm sorry. An experienced Storm stopped a hemisphere-sized hurricane dead in its tracks before she joined the X-men. Nothing Magneto has ever done without the aid of a machine can begin to compare with it. Look, my cousin's favorite character is Magneto. This is a debate that he and I have had for a very long time. I have likely read all of your scans and dealt with them. He is far more of a debater than your side is proving to be. Show me where Magneto is controlling the EM fields on a scale Storm has controlled the weather without the aid of a machine. If you can't do that, he doesn't have anywhere near the power to beat Storm. Actually, if she can stop a hemisphere-sized hurricane and Magneto can cause a blackout over a hemisphere without a machine, her stunt is FAR more powerful than his. Sorry, but its true. Her powers are much more violent and percussive.
Dubbiduu...like I said, seeking an ownining.
You do realize that Storm's power is to control the weather? Thus, stopping a hurricane in it's tracks isn't much of a feat, seeing as that is her power...
Oh here is just one example...Magneto EMP's the whole planet, to disable the failsafes humans have put to his power.
http://img279.imageshack.us/img279/3365/magcutsaswath8vm.jpg
Originally posted by Rutog98
Please explain to me what you tried to accomplish by posting that scan? What I saw there was a display of his power over magnetism. I agree that he is very powerful *in that realm of power*, just not enough to defeat Storm at levels she has been written in continuity.
Ehh, how is Storm going to stop something she has no way of deflecting? Magneto, EFFORTLESSLY, punched through an entire mountain.
Hurricane stopping doesn't really help her, SINCE MAGNETO ISN'T GOING TO ATTACK HER WITH WEATHER.
Oh, Magneto, after having had his powers for about five minutes killed every living being besides his wife on miles radius with a thought. Storm can't do anything.
Magneto beats Storm 10/10, with ease, nothing your fanboyness can muster changes that.
Originally posted by manjaro
dude said im going to smash you down.....thats funny as hell😄 i still stay 50/50 contingent on field of play and battle conditions,, i know thats so old me saying that now, but i dont have time to get all flowery, but one thing i will say again..Jean can beat storm but its not gonna be with TP
Agreed! Next!
Seriously, if we are not going to talk anything about Jean vs. Storm. Let's let this thread die, shall we? 😛
Originally posted by Rutog98
[B]Okay, my turn...As far as Storm vs. Jean Grey, I do not have my issues with me. I just know its circa 267-273. Storm was in her child form, courtesy of Nanny. She and Jean battled in the danger room and that is where this happened. Jean has to concentrate harder than Ororo to bring her powers to bear. You are trying to omit the concentration factor that all telepaths much adhere to.
It was UXM #269...and first of all...just because it applies to telekinesis doesn't mean it applies to telepathy. Because we've seen telepaths effect crowds of people without needing to concentrate.
For example in this scan. That's more then once persons mind...where's the concentration tell me? It's just a thought.
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1609/newxmen11811sm5.jpg
Telepathy is thought and execution as one....
http://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uxm384pg11cn8.jpg
It even works on a subconscious level...
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2299/xm16802yx9.jpg
How do Storms powers work when faced with a similar situation?
http://img459.imageshack.us/my.php?image=07yj4.jpg
Secondly..."Focus your concentration"...that's only so they can maintain doing whatever they're doing....i.e. Lift a pen...that only takes a thought as shown in the Psylocke scan....but to maintain lifting a pen..would require the telekinetic to focus.
Thought and Execution as One:
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/996/speedofthoughtmh6.jpg
Thirdly...Storm needs to concentrate...one which you keep forgetting. She has to manually shape the weather patterns to her will.
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/4153/hruxm267pg04ra0.jpg
As for that fight in UXM #269 funny enough....Jean wasn't out to kill Storm...hence the reason why she never snapped Storms neck at the start. It should be noted that Jean gave Ororo a chance...by going up and talking to her...giving Storm the time she needed to whip up a whirlwind. On KMC CIS is omitted.
As far as Storm's powers working in seconds, there was an issue (Marvel Fanfare issue 3, I believe) where she and Sauron fought. Storm was so weakened by being drained by Sauron, yet when he and Storm faced each other cowboy style on the draw and all, Storm was quicker than Sauron and hit him with a blizzard. It does not take seconds for Sauron to try and hypnotize. In Uncanny 175, Storm summoned all of the elements at her command before anyone present could do anything. Mastermind was present and he was the villain in the story. He is a psi.
You're forgetting that hypnosis still has to take its time to work on the opponent.. and was it hynosis or his mind scream? His mind scream takes a lot longer then his hypnosis.
Again it doesn't specify how fast Storm attacks. Point being my scan does...again comic proof is greater then your opinion.
Mastermind is a special Psi whose powers are limited to Illusion casting just like Bogan to mind control....his Illusions were occuring before Storm even used her power so your point is moot.
Again I'm going to stress the fact that it said "Blink of an Eye"...which is vague...and from this scan it says seconds.
http://img110.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitledqx0.jpg
Comic Proof >>> Then your opinion....get over it.
If I remember correctly, it was Rachel with the Phoenix Force that was on Cerebro. Anywhoo, you have to prove that Magneto was more succeptible to attacks when he was on Cerebro. He was no telepath under CC's pen as Uncanny 150 irrefutably states. Don't add a telepath's weakness to a non-psi. And Storm conquering her demons where Magneto FAILED to reflects a stronger mind.
Well you're remebering wrong...it was Magneto....go look at it again. It worked when Nova did it to Xavier....in fact it also occured when Psylocke was busy on Cerebro.
It amplifies your powers...but leaves your mind vunerable.
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/5930/uxm213page08jj1.jpg
http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uxm213page11fm6.jpg
Again it doesn't prove anything...she was STILL susceptible to the illusion..she conquered her inner demons first....that does not mean she has a stronger will. It means she has less mental issues to deal with.
In the 1986 Annual, Magneto was in Storm's group. The two groups were the X-Men and the New Mutants. Magneto was not in the New Mutants group. lol! That is why when the two teams fought, Magneto was on the X-Men side.
Magneto was not in the same group that was being attacked. That's what you're forgetting. Also Magneto was in charge of the New Mutants.
As for the retconning of Magneto's telepathy, it has no bearing here. Uncanny X-Men 150 firmly proves that willpower alone can fight off mental attacks besides just mind controlling and psi-probing. The issue stated that willpower alone was enough. There is no retcon that goes back to this issue and retcons it to the contrary. That's just a silly argument on your part. Heck, in Uncanny 277, Warskrull was mindblasting Storm and the X-Men. He was not trying to make slaves of them or read their thoughts. All he managed to do was subdue Storm temporarily as she would have broken his hold. This is a guy who had the combined powers of Xavier (a much stronger telepath than Jean Grey), Psylocke and Oracle (Shi'ar's most powerful telepath). Storm's willpower fought it.
Of course it does it's a Retcon...it's like the Jean/Phoenix retcon...and the M'Kraan Crystal Retcon....it still has a bearing on the past issues.
No it does not since he was resisting a "Telepathic Attack" which you nor I know the nature of...again PROVE It wasn't Mind Control. And again his helmet adds an added defense against telepathy. He was retconned back to being a telepath...when he joined the X-Men and this was touched on in the 1998 annual...
As for the Super Skrull that works in my favour. Banshee goes through the same thing and manages to get up from the attack. Xavier has to fix a broken Storm on the next page. What does that tell us...Banshee's Defenses >>> Then Storms to mind control.
In regards to the Xavier/Callisto thing, Storm has a much stronger natural resistance to TP than Callisto. There is no contesting this given the history between the two. Xavier made this comment with Callisto, so it really bolsters Ororo. Now, in regards to your 3 things, I will grant you on the first one. However, the other two, I disagree. Xavier will mindblast as he mindblasted Magneto in Uncanny 150.
That's your opinion...it's never been stated in a comic. No it doesn't. And he wouldn't because of the guilt he was feeling at the time...Magneto was going to kill his students...and the added protection of his helmet made a psi-bolt okay since it won't do to much harm. (Remember when he goes all out and mind-wipes Magneto..he stops holding back then.) His morals stop him from turning people into vegetables. That's an established fact with Xavier.
In regards to Uncanny 150 and Xavier mindblasting Magneto in the middle of a fight between himself and the X-Men, he was unable to drop MAgneto at that time and Magneto's concentration became focused on him AFTER the mind attack had already commenced.
Magneto has his special helmet for added protection....something Storm does not have. Wolverine attacks irrationally and comes out of no where which surprises them both. Giving Magneto the edge to out Xavier with a spanner.
Also, can you tell me where in the story it states that Magneto's helmet added protection from TP assaults? This is something that came along afterwards. In this issue, Magneto fought Xavier off of willpower alone. There was no helmet blocking TP assaults. There was no telepathic Magneto fighting it off. The issue states willpower alone. If you don't like this, tough!
Willpower to a Telepathic Attack which you don't know the nature of. So tough...I'm referring to the second attack because the first means nothing unless you know the nature of the attack. Which you don't.
It's been confirmed in New X-Men that Magnetos helmet was an added protection to telepathic assaults. So get over yourself.
Continued:
In regards to Storm vs. Emma, when Emma made that comment about knowing Ororo's mind as well as she knows her own, she said that because willpower can resist all TP assaults.
Now where did you get that from. That's some serious reaching. No she says it because the nature of the attack Emma used was Mind Control.
I suggest you take your own advice.
You just don't want to accept it. Too bad.
She underestimated Storm and was going by the Dark Phoenix Saga when she trumped Ororo and the X-Men. BTW, in the DP Saga, Emma used a mind bolt on them. It was not a mind control attack or a mind probe to read thoughts. She knocked them out and they did resist.
She used a Psi-Force Bolt....they couldn't resist...they tried to use the techniques Xavier taught them...but the scan says the victor was never in doubt....it does not say the techniques Xavier taught them actually worked.
It
just so happened that Ororo grew a stronger will by 152 and it was too much for Emma's TP. Emma was going on a previous encounter thinking that Ororo could not resist her TP.
Utter BS...speculation on your part. Wasn't stated anywhere.
What else did she say after that? Emma said that Storm would be just a memory by morning via the storm Ororo had banished just earlier. If somebody says that come tomorrow, you'll just be a memory, in other words, they are going to kill you.
AFTER? That occurs before...read the actual scan before you post nonsense.
No if it was a telepath who wanted your powers it would mean they'd were going to become a vegetable or their mind slave. The victims mind would only be a memory....their thoughts, feelings etc all a memory of what once was.
Emma was bloodthirsty and Storm became bloodthirsty. Emma lacked the power to carry through and Ororo was going to kill her with her bare hands. Emma lacked the power to stop her and Wolverine had to step in to save Emma.
No Emma wasn't Emma keeps her cool in fights....Emma was going to make Storm her mind slave. Hence her comments. Storm was bloodlusted and couldn't hurt Emma with a lightning bolt. The reason why Emma never tried to stop Storm was because Xavier and the rest of the X-Men were present. She couldn't have escaped from Xavier.
Now, in regards to your TP scans, please post the issues. I am unable to see your scans. I am on these university computers and sometimes I am unable to see scans. I will caution you though. There is already sufficient proof in comics that reflects that Ororo can withstand TP assaults.
No there isn't actually....please list these times...where she resisted a psi-force bolt or psi fry?
UXM #106 Fell for Xaviers Illusion
UXM #111 Became Mesmero's....b&*&(
UXM #129....Emma Psi Force Bolts Storm. Storm is knocked out.
UXM #131 Emma's probing reduces Storm to tears...due to the pain it causes.
UXM #155 Deathbirds Psi-Scream mentally controls Storm and Corsair...Xavier has to free them from it.
UXM #175 She fell for Masterminds Illusion
UXM #277 Storm gets mentally destroyed by the Super Skrulls mind control attack. Banshee goes through the same thing and gets up before her. Xavier has to fix her afterwards.
UXM #278 Legion telepathically freezes Storm in place....then he knocks her out...and this is while Psylocke is trying to protect Storm from the attack.
New Mutants #34 The Shadow King makes Storm and the rest of the New Mutants his mind slaves. Illyana comes and saves the day by freeing everyone and Karma and Illyana make the Shadow King flee back to the Astral Plane.
X-Men #41 Legion knocks Storm out with a Psi-Fry.
Onslaught X-Men...Onslaught reduces Storm to the status of a child.
UXM #320 Legion telepathically forces Storm to relive her past.
X-treme X-Men #22 Emma knocks Storm out of the sky with a psi-fry.
X-Men #60 Karima invades Storms thoughts...and uses them to create Jamil a psychic illusion.
UXM #325 Storm is effected by a Morlocks Psionic Stab
UXM #457, #458. #459 Rachel shuts down Storms mind and uses her powers against her...Psylocke has to save Storm.(Written by Chris Claremont)
Phoenix Endsong #5 Telepathically taken out by Phoenix Emma...the point here that should be made....is that there was no resistance from Storm here.
X-4 #1 No resistance when Emma caused Storms head to ring.
She has proven her merit against the likes of Shadow King and psis more powerful than Xavier.
The Shadow King thing was mind control. Is that all you have?
She has done this kind of stuff multiple times. If you bring up stuff from the 90's, I am going to smash you down with that. Storm has been around 30 years. During the 7 years or so where Lobdell/Kelly/Seagle wrote, they wrote Storm without her indomitable will.
Get over yourself you haven't made one good point as to why Storm wins...Wills only help against Mind Control and Probing. Storm hasn't shown any resistance to having a mind fried as shown on panel.
And this so called increase in telepathic resistance is BS....this has been touched on in comics before. She has resistance to deeper probing which she always had because it was a natural resistance.
Here's the scan where it was stated:
http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stormandphoenixgo7.jpg
They weakened her powers as well. On these boards and for the purposes of these debates, we do not go by write downs. In other words, if a character lifts a plane in one issue, yet in another issue they are unable to lift a car, we give credence to the plane. Same here. If a character resists the Shadow King yet falls to someone like Jean Grey, we give the Shadow King credence since they were written down for Ms. Grey. Trust me, I am very experienced in these debates. I am more than prepared for you telepathic issues you are trying to use against Ororo. Storm has proven her merit time and again.
*Cough* Mind Control...one aspect of telepathy as opposed to the many others.
She resists mind control..she does not resist a psi-fry or psi-force bolt.
Mind Control and Psi-Fries are like Storms lightning being compared to her blizzards. To different types of attacks...
CC spent a lot of time developing her character in his initial 17 year run. Her willpower grew apace with it. That is why Emma's TP was able to stop Storm in Dark Phoenix Saga but not in 152. It reflected change and growth in the Storm character. One thing CC did was check and balance with the characters. In other words, he gave a special few non-telepathic characters means to combat telepathy. Otherwise, a telepath will always trump a non-telepath. This willpower that he worked hard to develop in a precious few characters is an expression of that. Storm exeplifies this at its zenith.
When CC wrote X-treme...a psi-fry which lasted less then a second knocked Storm out of the sky. And you can't base your argument(If you can call it that) on one writer...you take it as a whole.
Telepaths job in comics..they always go for the mind control...that way it balances things out.
Eg With Wolverine...Nova mind control him...he resists...Emma shuts down his subconscious reflexes...and he goes down in an instant.
I am by no means stating that Ororo can't be taken by surprise by a telepath. If Jean managed a TP assault from ambush, she could very well take her out of a fight. However, we are debating where neither character is caught unawares.
Storm has shown no resistance to a psi-fry or psi-force bolt...you have to counter that. Storm goes down until proven otherwise.
Okay, now all of this said, Storm is a character like any other character. CC (and a few other writers) made her incredibly strong and nearly unbeatable. That means that she is going to be written down for some stories to work. For instance, Rachel should not have been able to control her powers like that in that one issue you mentioned. During "Schism," Rachel, who was possessed by Bogan, could not even touch Ororo's mind.
Bogans powers work on mind control. Rachel shut down Storms brain. A different type of telepathic attack. Rachel then used Storm brain to access her weather powers.
Earlier in that story, when Rachel tried to shut Storm's mind down, she was unable to. Storm said that she could beat Rachel, but she would have to kill her and was willing to kill Rachel along with her team and their enemies. Kurt had to knock her out. If Storm had only her willpower alone, Rachel could have done it as when Ororo was rendered unconscious, she noodled her way into Ororo's head so she could bypass most of her will. However, CC gave Ororo the added boost of electricity frying telepaths trying to assault her mind when Ororo is in-tuned with her powers. That should have stopped Rachel. However, for the sake of the story, that had to be ignored. For the sake of the debate, Storm has that power.
That power has only been shown to work against mind control...for the purposes of this fight...it only works for mind control.
Storm has shown no resistance against a psi-fry or psi-force bolt.
There's a character limit...so here's the last bit...
In regards to Storm smashing his force-field in Uncanny 150, she most certainly did. Where did he drop it? He had his force-field up when she fired her lightning at him. He told her how his oversight of her death may be his downfall, but her lightning alone will not defeat him. He had his force-field up during this. She then tells him, "They (referring to her biolightning bolts) are not the only weapons at my disposal and are far from my most powerful." At this point, you are saying that Magneto dropped his force-field so he could feel the full fury of whatever else she was going to do, right? LOL! She then whipped up a tornado. It smashed the force-field. [/B]
He dropped his forcefield....for the sake of progression in the story. It's called jobbing...CIS...
He had it up...hence the bubble around him..then he drops it..hence the reason why there's no bubble around him when she attacks.
I'll repost these scans aswell.
Mind Rape.
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/4913/uncannyxmen27816fu9.jpg
http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/8240/uncannyxmen27817ql8.jpg
http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=14xj3.jpg
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/8868/uxm155page11ky6.jpg
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4735/uxm155page15pd6.jpg
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/4493/uxm155page16pi8.jpg
http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hruncannyxmen320large11vl5.jpg
http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hruncannyxmen320large1213ip8.jpg
http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hruncannyxmen320large14zs3.jpg
http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hruncannyxmen320large17tm1.jpg
http://img397.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xmenn41p14iz2.jpg
http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xmenn41p16hw8.jpg
http://img375.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xtremexmen22p17hgwellsod3.jpg
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/8218/xtremexmen22p17hgwellsgc8.jpg
http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uncannyxmen27719su0.jpg
http://img466.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uncannyxmen27720ti8.jpg
http://img40.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=05296_Uncanny_X_Men_1980_03_131_07_438lo.jpg
http://img109.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=05601_Uncanny_X_Men_1980_03_131_10_428lo.jpg
Storm says it herself that TK inhibits her powers.
http://img152.imagevenue.com/view.php?image=03962_axmb_101_472lo.jpg
http://img109.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=04308_axmb_102_540lo.jpg
http://img159.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=04470_axmb_103_449lo.jpg
A comparison between a beaten up conscious Storm and an unconscious telepath.
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2299/xm16802yx9.jpg
http://img459.imageshack.us/my.php?image=07yj4.jpg
And even Storm has her limits:
http://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=theuncannyxmen284p17nw7.jpg
http://img484.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xmenv208607rougherqb1.jpg
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/5474/uncannyxmen11702xe8.jpg [/B]
Originally posted by Rutog98
In response to Cosmic Flame:Now, I have only discussed Ororo's willpower and telepathic defenses in this post. I have not addressed the enormous amount of power Storm can bring to bear in a fight offensively with her powers. Well, I have discussed it at length in the debate against Magneto. Obviously, a character with this kind of will who can pull the kind of power stunts I have brought up in the Storm vs. Magneto aspect of this thread is going to be written down in some issues even by CC. She's near unstoppable. In order for certain stories to unfold, she has to be weakened. This is a character who could beat anyone of the X-Men standard foes (ie. Magneto, Shadow King, Inner Circle, etc). And yes, she could likely trump the entire old-school Inner Circle (Shaw, Leland, Selene, Emma, Pierce) by herself. That Inner Circle would stand a much better chance against Magneto by himself than they would against Storm by herself. In a Storm vs. Inner Circe, Storm would have a the bigger advantage. I mean, they have no defense whatsover against her powers and lack any means to take her down quickly. Given time, they may be able to come out with a victory, but her powers are inherently too violent and will take them out immediately. One tornado and they are gone. Magneto, on the other hand, lacks the means to take them down quickly and they can wear them down with their 5-1 numbers. Plus, they are better able to fight off his attacks than they are Ororo's. I can defend this well. 🙂 So, now imagine a character like Storm backed by team member and put her up against x-villains. See what I am getting at? 😄
Umm that's all very nice except all those incidents are mind control...come back when she's resisted a psi-force bolt or psi-fry. On panel she's been shown to be effected by both...
Oh and I can't stop laughing at that last comment...Storm beat Selene? She beats the entire inner circle....? I'm sorry but that says it all. Just like how you said Storm could beat Magneto and Exodus....bad enough you said she could do it similtaneously...*snort*
