Poll
57%
43%
Vader's principle advantage against Mace would be his prowess in the dark side, his skills in utilizing the environment, and his superior Force powers. Though this would be difficult, I could see Mace fighting his way past it - and then it would likely come down to a contest of blades.
Vader is stronger and more overpowering, but Mace has greater mobility and possesses the effective and lethal skills of Vaapad and Shatterpoint.
I'd say he'd win, after a difficult duel.
Mace dominates this fight. How do I know? Because Obi-wan took Anakin in the same situation, yet we know for a fact that Obi-wan would never be strong enough to defeat Sidious. Mace did. Also, Mace is as good, if not better than Dooku. Dooku OWNED Obi-wan in ROTS and it's logical to assume that Mace could do the same.
RotS Vader. I don't know why in the hell I thought it was RotJ Vader.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Mace dominates this fight. How do I know? Because Obi-wan took Anakin in the same situation, yet we know for a fact that Obi-wan would never be strong enough to defeat Sidious. Mace did. Also, Mace is as good, if not better than Dooku. Dooku OWNED Obi-wan in ROTS and it's logical to assume that Mace could do the same.
This situation is different.
Anakin lost because Obi-Wan knew Anakin's form, how Anakin fought, Anakin's weaknesses, Anakin's strengths, and Anakin's state of mind. Mace doesn't have that intimate luxary.
I agree, though. Mace would win. Due to his mastery of the Force and Shatterpoint.
However, Anakin is easily on par and could contend with Mace in a lightsaber fight.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Mace dominates this fight. How do I know? Because Obi-wan took Anakin in the same situation, yet we know for a fact that Obi-wan would never be strong enough to defeat Sidious. Mace did. Also, Mace is as good, if not better than Dooku. Dooku OWNED Obi-wan in ROTS and it's logical to assume that Mace could do the same.
?? Palpatine and Mace had a straight up lightsaber battle. Nothing more and nothing less. In lightsaber combat only Obi-Wan could go toe to toe with the Emperor but in an all out fight no.
Obi-Wan took on Anakin which doesn't help your point. Obi-Wan knew Anakin's move, abilities, basically everything about him. Knowing your opponent inside and out really comes in handy.
Besides the point in an all out battle Mace would defeat Anakin. Anakin has a chance to win (really good chance) but Mace seems to keep focused more then Anakin did at the time.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Mace dominates this fight. How do I know? Because Obi-wan took Anakin in the same situation, yet we know for a fact that Obi-wan would never be strong enough to defeat Sidious. Mace did. Also, Mace is as good, if not better than Dooku. Dooku OWNED Obi-wan in ROTS and it's logical to assume that Mace could do the same.
So you're using the old A>B>C argument huh? OB1 cant beat Sidious, Mace can And OB1 beat Anakin, hence Mace could "dominate" Anakin, sound about right? Well by the same logic, Dooku bested Mace, Anakin wtfpwned Dooku, so Anakin pwns Mace...by your logic of course.
Dooku bested Mace, Anakin wtfpwned Dooku, so Anakin pwns Mace
1. Dooku bested Mace at one point. Read Shatterpoint. Mace has gotten FAR more powerful than when Dooku and Mace fought.
2. Anakin didn't fight Dooku alone. Obi-wan, who has shown himself to be Anakin's superior, was there and helped.
3. Dooku wasn't fighting as hard as he could. Dooku was tricked by Sidious into letting Anakin win.
?? Palpatine and Mace had a straight up lightsaber battle. Nothing more and nothing less. In lightsaber combat only Obi-Wan could go toe to toe with the Emperor but in an all out fight no.
Were you half asleep when you typed this? Only Obi-wan could go toe to toe with the Emperor? Where did you get that idea? Mace BEAT Sidious in lightsaber combat. Yoda's better than Sidious too. And Dooku get give Sidious a hard time in lightsaber combat too. Obi-wan? Nope, especially not when Kit, who was very close to Obi-wan in lightsaber skills didn't last FIVE SECONDS against Sidious.
Anakin lost because Obi-Wan knew Anakin's form, how Anakin fought, Anakin's weaknesses, Anakin's strengths, and Anakin's state of mind. Mace doesn't have that intimate luxary.
You're forgetting the fact that Anakin knew Obi-wan just as well as Obi-wan knew Anakin I see. All of the quotes about them knowing eachother say that THEY knew eachother better than brothers, not Obi-wan knew Anakin better than a brother and Anakin didn't really know Obi-wan any better than he knew Mace Windu. BOTH Anakin and Obi-wan had that huge advantage in that fight. Anakin won't have it when fighting Mace and will get dominated.
If Anakin fights like he did against Dooku, I see him actually beating Mace, seeing as how he punked Dooku pretty fast. However, Mace is level-headed, and, all around great. I think he would have a slightly better chance of winning this than Anakin does. Close fight, but, if forced to, I would put my money on Mace.
@Glentract:
3. Dooku wasn't fighting as hard as he could. Dooku was tricked by Sidious into letting Anakin win.
Incorrect.
Advent and myself have been on the subject of Count Dooku vs. Anakin for months. We have provided Lucas's commentary, the official script, and the novelization (which are all G-Canon sources). Then, we have supporting evidence provided from tNEC, the RotS visual guide, the Ultimate Visual Guide, Sidious's own in-movie remarks, and plain old logical deduction.
Count Dooku lost because he could not stop the sheer wrath of Anakin, unrestrained, and calling on the Dark Side. He did not go easy on Anakin, Glentract. Use common sense. Why the hell would Sidious engineer the fight - the sole purpose of which is to test Anakin's strength and fighting prowess, to see if he could replace Dooku - if he had Dooku restrained? How freakin' accurate could it be?
I am aware that the taboo of Dooku > Sidious and Dooku > Anakin is still around, and thrived back in the old days. I am happy to announce that Advent and myself have broken them both, and they no longer apply.
Dooku, however, still likely wins a Force fight. But he lost to Anakin, legitimately, and is no match for an unrestrained Anakin. Not at all.
As to some of your other posts:
2. Anakin didn't fight Dooku alone. Obi-wan, who has shown himself to be Anakin's superior, was there and helped.
Since when has Obi-Wan proven himself to be the better fighter? He isn't. The Force is far stronger in Anakin. Anakin is stronger, faster, and is simply "the better fighter".
Mace BEAT Sidious in lightsaber combat. Yoda's better than Sidious too. And Dooku get give Sidious a hard time in lightsaber combat too. Obi-wan? Nope, especially not when Kit, who was very close to Obi-wan in lightsaber skills didn't last FIVE SECONDS against Sidious.
Mace beat Sidious due to Shatterpoint. As a swordsman, Sidious is his equal. Sidious, I might add, who didn't touch a lightsaber for thirteen years. Pretty good for him, I'd say... In an all out fight, though, Mace would likely lose.
And, Yoda is better than Palpatine? When? The only part of their fight that would imply that Yoda is better than Palpatine in lightsaber combat is a non-canon part of the script, where Yoda disarms Sidious, begins to WTFpwn him, and then let's Sidious go to continue the fight.
I wonder why this part was left out?
Besides, if anything, there are multiple sources stating Yoda was overwhelmed and forced to retreat. Wouldn't be the case if he were better or if he won.
You're forgetting the fact that Anakin knew Obi-wan just as well as Obi-wan knew Anakin I see. All of the quotes about them knowing eachother say that THEY knew eachother better than brothers, not Obi-wan knew Anakin better than a brother and Anakin didn't really know Obi-wan any better than he knew Mace Windu. BOTH Anakin and Obi-wan had that huge advantage in that fight. Anakin won't have it when fighting Mace and will get dominated.
Perhaps you forget the part that Anakin doesn't think rationally when in a state of rage. It is more like a "smash, kill" incoherent brutal rampage. Obi-Wan's already been established, on multiple occasions, to be the "smarter" fighter. He thinks with a clear head, and his wisdom and fighting experience far exceeds Anakin's own.
Anakin > Obi-Wan.
And, Anakin is on par with Mace, Sidious, Dooku, and Yoda in swordsmanship.
I actually see Anakin winning this battle. Anakin is the best swordsman of the PT era. In really people said Mace would win by using the Force but when Mace was fighting the Emperor did he use the Force then? No.
Mace is a skilled swordsman but Anakin is just better. People say that Mace, Dooku, and Yoda are on the same level (at least when it comes to lightsaber skills) but Anakin pwned Dooku. Many say that it was because Anakin was fighting with Obi-Wan but Dooku had to separate them in order to stand a chance. Even the script says that Dooku and Obi-Wan were becoming tired but Anakin was still growing stronger in strength.
Also the entire Anakin vs. Obi-Wan fight agrument seems retarded. People are underrating Obi-Wan who was a master at Form III and Form IV and knew all of Anakin's moves.
Anakin, in a state of extreme rage, defeated Count Dooku. And, yes, he did so easier than what was previously thought. But, Count Dooku was able to comfortably handle Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time. The reason being? He's a mile and a half above Obi-Wan, and Anakin wasn't using his hatred.
I don't agree. In the movie, you first see Anakin and Obi-Wan using different lightsaber forms, which they don't masterfully know. You see Obi-Wan going on the offensive with Shii-Cho. Now when they resorted back to their orginal forms, they couldn't properly utilize them. Anakin's Djem So requires fierce long strikes and Kenobi's Soresu requires space and a vast arena. Anakin couldn't go full Djem So berserk on Dooku unless he had space otherwise he could have accidently cut Kenobi in half.
I doubt Dooku is a mile and half above Obi-Wan. With Anakin beside him, Obi-Wan couldn't have fully been aware of Dooku and thus probably got Choked a lot easier than it should have been. I put Dooku a bit better than Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
I don't agree. In the movie, you first see Anakin and Obi-Wan using different lightsaber forms, which they don't masterfully know. You see Obi-Wan going on the offensive with Shii-Cho. Now when they resorted back to their orginal forms, they couldn't properly utilize them. Anakin's Djem So requires fierce long strikes and Kenobi's Soresu requires space and a vast arena. Anakin couldn't go full Djem So berserk on Dooku unless he had space otherwise he could have accidently cut Kenobi in half.I doubt Dooku is a mile and half above Obi-Wan. With Anakin beside him, Obi-Wan couldn't have fully been aware of Dooku and thus probably got Choked a lot easier than it should have been. I put Dooku a bit better than Obi-Wan.
The novelization goes into detail about how they attempted to dupe Count Dooku.
I'm sorry, Prodigal. But that you'd put Obi-Wan anywhere on par with Count Dooku is nothing short of mindboggling. Notice that he was treating the fight as comically as they were. They weren't putting their all into it, and neither was he. But, by God, when he finally got pissed and took the fight seriously, what did he do?
Kicked Anakin against a wall and WTFpwned Obi-Wan with the Force.
In lightsaber skills? Count Dooku is above Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan's defense may cause him some considerable trouble, but he'd eventually win.
In Force powers? Count Dooku is a mile above Obi-Wan. RotS showed that very nicely.
In an all out fight? Do the math. If it were just Obi-Wan vs. Dooku, it would have gone a lot differently, and much more abruptly.
Honestly, I think the issue is with Lucas' mishapen and odd intentions. I honestly see Dooku as being superior to the duo, when he's using the force offensively. I accept that Anakin defeated Dooku in lightsabre combat, but honestly; what was to stop Dooku just reversing the targets and wasting Anakin with the force and kicking Kenobi backwards? In that case, Dooku would have effectively owned them both.
Circumstance effectively gave Anakin a natural advantage and combined with Anakin's raw power and skill gave Dooku something that he couldn't handle.
The novelization goes into detail about how they attempted to dupe Count Dooku.I'm sorry, Prodigal. But that you'd put Obi-Wan anywhere on par with Count Dooku is nothing short of mindboggling. Notice that he was treating the fight as comically as they were. They weren't putting their all into it, and neither was he. But, by God, when he finally got pissed and took the fight seriously, what did he do?
Kicked Anakin against a wall and WTFpwned Obi-Wan with the Force.
In lightsaber skills? Count Dooku is above Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan's defense may cause him some considerable trouble, but he'd eventually win.
In Force powers? Count Dooku is a mile above Obi-Wan. RotS showed that very nicely.
In an all out fight? Do the math. If it were just Obi-Wan vs. Dooku, it would have gone a lot differently, and much more abruptly.
I see where you are going with this Escape. Yes, the novelization shows the fight as being much longer, however it's the movie that purely shows what happens.
Now about Obi-Wan and Dooku. In lightsaber skills, Dooku prevails after a tough fight. I agree with you on that.
Now in the Force. I HIGHLY doubt Dooku is a mile above Kenobi in the Force. Kenobi has shown tremendous Force strength especially when he slammed Grievous into the wall. He was also able to contend with Anakin in a Pushing Contest, and made it a draw.
Again, because of ROTS, we see Obi-Wan cutting down the SuperDroids and then running to Dooku to help out Anakin. Dooku sees that both are to his side so he kicks Anakin and then disposes Kenobi. If it was an actual fight between two of them, Kenobi would be wary of Dooku's Force powers. It was due to how the battle turned out that Kenobi got supposedly pwned. If there was a fight between the two of them, I doubt Kenobi would be wasted by the Force.
Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Now in the Force. I HIGHLY doubt Dooku is a mile above Kenobi in the Force. Kenobi has shown tremendous Force strength especially when he slammed Grievous into the wall.
That doesnt put him on par with Dooku in terms of the force. In ROTS we can physically see the expression of Kenobi's face when he performed the move. It is obvious it used a fair bit of effort. However in the CW we see Dooku throw GG around with the force as if it were nothing. Putting, imo, Dooku a fair notch or three above Kenobi in this area.
Sorry, but I couldnt resist adding my two cents.
When did Dooku throw Grievous around??? And yes, he's using all his strength to throw Grievous into a wall like fourty feet from the ground. And that's considering the fact he just battled Grievous head on. Notice how Kenobi easily brought down a metal box weighing a ton on Grievous's Magnaguards with ease. I woud say Kenobi is not at all far off.
He did this during a training session in the CW. Dooku had also just been fighting Greivous (with ease) and was still able to completely pwn him with the force. It should also be noted that this is CW Greivous - a much stronger version than Kenobi faced. I dont know why this is being argued - Kenobi isnt anywhere near the level of Dooku, with a blade or with the force.