Mace Windu vs Darth Vader

You don't have access to a character's innermost thoughts, Prodigal. You don't know that they weren't expecting Count Dooku to use the Force. There are some things that people can take into consideration, but just not be prepared for. You can't sit here and tell me "oh, they thought he was going to do THIS instead of THIS", because you do not know.

It is highly possible that he just overpowered them, as his mastery of the Force is greater than Anakin's or Obi-Wan's at this point in the juncture.

Maybe so, Escape. However, we have take in all considerations. We know Obi-Wan is powerful and even Windu considered his Soresu as splendid. Yoda was already impressed by him in AOTC, and should be definately proud of him in ROTS. I highly doubt that Dooku can just go there and curbstomb Kenobi.

It's very likely possible that Anakin and Obi-Wan believed that Dooku was playing around with them and that they knew his arrogance would make not likely go serious on them. But they were taken aback when he suddenly does the masterful Kick-Choke-Throw Manuever. It just doesn't quite make sense for me that he's just so much better than Obi-Wan is able to destroy him in ROTS without an explanation.

The two did fight, and Obi-Wan's intellect didn't save him from Count Dooku's vastly superior Force powers. And, Obi-Wan is not capable of performing Force lightning or choke.

Sorry. In a Force fight, Obi-Wan is owned. Curbstomped.

In a lightsaber fight? Obi-Wan's defense will provide some trouble, but Dooku will still win in the end.

In an all out fight? Think of RotS but faster when there's no pesky Anakin to deal with.

Yes, but in AOTC, Obi-Wan was able to counter Dooku's Lightning. And Dooku uses Lightning before a duel to weaken the opponent (AOTC). This won't work at all against ROTS Kenobi.

But Obi-Wan is capable of bring down a ton of metal without any effort and if able to Throw an eight-foot droid about fifty feet into the air and a hundred feet away.

Dooku is equal to Kenobi (if not slightly better) and his other advantage is his Choke. This is a deadly weapon. However, I doubt Obi-Wan gets owned in the Force Fight. Just comfortably defeated.

Originally posted by Escape81
In an all out fight? Think of RotS but faster when there's no pesky Anakin to deal with.

That's less than 13 seconds!

Seriously, Dooku > Kenobi in the Force by a decent margin, perhaps a good league or two. Kenobi has no defense against someone who's adeptness in the Force is among the top five of the PT era (and it's a big gap of pure power to the likes of Obi-Wan) - this was shown in the RotS duel. And Prodigal, if you think Obi-Wan "forgot" or "wasn't prepared", that is pure speculated bullshit. Either Kenobi is an incompetent duelist, or your thoughts are severly flawed.

I'd wager the latter given the fact he is an au fait duelist. If you recall during their duel in RotS, Kenobi was Force pushed prior to being completely taken out by Count Dooku. So, there's no reason for him to completely oblivious to the fact when it happened moments before.

I'd also like to take an excerpt from the Revenge of the Sith novelization:

"He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it. "

-- Revenge of the Sith novel, Chapter 3.

It's pretty obvious that Dooku would tool Kenobi with relative ease using the Force considering what is above; it's also apparent from a single line that Dooku is, at the least, a mile ahead of Obi-Wan in the Force. Plus, when you consider all of what the Count has done with the Force, and the descriptions - it's clear that he's Obi-Wan's superior.

"z0mg, he f0rced push3d grievous!!!///1ONEELEVEN1?!!!"

My response: BFD.

Grievous is a non-Force using being, who - without a connection to the Force - is plainly unable to defend against Force attacks. Basically, all Obi-Wan did was Force push some hunk of metal. Not so impressive when you consider that fact, because someone like Ki-Adi-Mundi or Mara Jade could easily replicate that feat (pushing something analogous to a droid [Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan did it in TPM, IIRC]). I don't see either of them being on par with Count Dooku, let alone lasting more than five seconds in a pure Force battle.

In an all-out fight? Let's see: RotS revisted. That took all of, as I said before, 13 seconds.

Should have expected Advent would come to Escape's die. Frick, how I have to take on Advent AND Escape.

I don't have time here, so I'll give a summary argument. Yes Dooku is better. But he won't and he cannot defeat Kenobi in thirteen seconds. I would wager about a minute. Kenobi grants him at least that much.

I have already argued about the thirteen second thing somewhat.

Advent's the closest thing I have to a "debating partner". We took on a lot of old KMC taboos together. Aside from the fact that I am madly in love with her [ 😄 ], she and I share a lot of views.

Besides. It's plain that she's crazy about me. 😛

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
I don't have time here, so I'll give a summary argument. Yes Dooku is better. But he won't and he cannot defeat Kenobi in thirteen seconds. I would wager about a minute. Kenobi grants him at least that much.

Except Count Dooku can, and already has defeated Obi-Wan in thirteen seconds. Why would it last any longer now? The only thing Kenobi can hope for is a straight lightsaber battle, perhaps then he'd last roughly a minute; albeit, if Tyranus did decide to use the Force (and he usually does; or rather, it's not uncommon for him to do such), it wouldn't last very long - definitely not a minute.

I have already argued about the thirteen second thing somewhat.

And it had no bearing. Your point? What was your explanation, as I didn't quite see much relevance in anything you said to the thirteen seconds thing. The only thing was that he was "surprised".

Hint: He wasn't. He was owned by a Force push moments before, that's why Obi-Wan had to sprint up the stairs - as I've already covered.

Unless you weren't referring to that, then I don't see it. It could be the fact I've only briefly skimmed over the arguments, but meh.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
But he won't and he cannot defeat Kenobi in thirteen seconds. I would wager about a minute. Kenobi grants him at least that much.

I dont understand how you can come to that conclusion. In the movies (highest form of canon) Obi-Wan gets taken out in thirteen seconds. Now this is with Anakin helping him and Dooku going easy for the first part of the fight. Although I havent read you previous arguments I think your argument is pointless.

Though she does tend to ignore me... but, it's okay. I still love her. 😛

Windu's refinement of Vaapad and Shatterpoint by ROTS (which I assume the threadmaker is referring to) is enough to put Sidious on his ass. Vader's strength in the force is noteable, but for the most part on par with Windu's.

Windu wins by sheer saber skills.

Originally posted by Escape81
Though she does tend to ignore me... but, it's okay. I still love her. 😛

Who? Me?

I don't ignore you, I just play hard to get, lol. 😛 You, Rex, and I are a three e-some.

Originally posted by Advent
Who? Me?

I don't ignore you, I just play hard to get, lol. 😛 You, Rex, and I are a three e-some.

😄 😄

If you two have a kid, will he be some debating monster who, despite having radically wrong views such as Ki-Adi Mundi beating LOTF Luke, can still debate everyone into having to admit he/she's right?

Rofl.

That'd be interesting. A child with both of our defining traits would mean a girl who is a dominatrix with a weird obsession with '80s rock bands, and fish.

I leave it to you to conclude what traits belong to which parent. 😐

No offense, but I'm definitely gonna pray the dominatrix trait is hers because...you're not of the female persuasion.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
No offense, but I'm definitely gonna pray the dominatrix trait is hers because...you're not of the female persuasion.

This is true.

Ask Rex. It's all whips and leather and chains and pictures of Yoda with Advent. 😐

And old windows 98 computers, according to her.

Originally posted by Escape81
Rot[B]S Vader. I don't know why in the hell I thought it was RotJ Vader.

This situation is different.

Anakin lost because Obi-Wan knew Anakin's form, how Anakin fought, Anakin's weaknesses, Anakin's strengths, and Anakin's state of mind. Mace doesn't have that intimate luxary.

I agree, though. Mace would win. Due to his mastery of the Force and Shatterpoint.

However, Anakin is easily on par and could contend with Mace in a lightsaber fight. [/B]

Not a bad presentation at all... 😉

When I saw this, I knew it would be a good oppurtunity to display somthing I wrote on another thread about a simular duel...

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Wrong, technically Anakin is better than Obi-Wan. However, Obi-Wan knows all of Anakin's moves and is more relaxed and calm than Anakin. In addition, Anakin's anger will make him make a mistake. That's how Obi-Wan survived Mustafar. It'll just be like that.

Your WRONG.

Anakin is better than Obi-Wan, and about "Obi-Wan knowing all of Anakin's moves..."

Anakin knows all of Obi-Wan's moves .

Double edged sword, remember?

De de de...

That "Knowing all his moves thing" is crap.

Obi-Wan won only because of Anakin's mind being in a crippled state.
If Anakin had been clear and focused like how he had been while fighting Dooku, then Obi-Wan would have been doing the backstroke in lava.

Speaking of which, If Anakin is fighting Sidious and Mace is still alive, that means he hasn't "killed" Padme yet.
That also means he hasn't killed younglings yet either.

So mentally, he is still capable of much focus.

So, when he duels Obi-Wan in this scenario, given the fact he'll be calm and only think that Obi-Wan and Mace are trying to assassinate senator Palpatine, and the fact that Obi-Wan won't be able to find any high ground, not that it will help him anyway...

Obi-Wan will get trashed by Anakin.

BTW, This is sort of the reason Anakin beat Mace Windu in the RotS Video game.
In normal terms, Mace has about the power and skill of Dooku, perhaps slightly higher.
But, using Vapaad, he can absorb the Force energy that gradually permeates off of a Dark sider and either use it to fuel him through a fight, or re-direct it back into the opponant.
Of course Shatterpoint can also be used...
My point is, regularly, (Vader)Anakin would get defeated in a short duel by Mace, who would feed of his Dark Force energy and win out against him.
In the game however, Anakin fights Mace after witnessing "an assassination attempt".
Since he hasn't gone to the Dark side yet, he isen't using anger or the Dark side. He fights determinedly against Mace, in his mind trying to save the life of an innocent man.

Because of this, Mace cannot use Vapaad against/on him.
There is no Dark side energy resonating from Anakin to collect and utilise. Also, Shatterpoint cannot be used since Anakin is not utilising the Dark Side.
So Mace, who for all good purposes was basicly another "Dooku" in that duel and was left with his regular abilities.

And, like Dooku, after putting up a good but short fight, was eventually worn down, and out-techniqued.

Just wanted to point that out, since it confused people when the game came out...

So yeah, Basicly, Mace wins against Darth vader, actually, almost easily.

But against Anakin Skywalker he'd lose, almost easily.

Ironic. 😛

Mace wins. He has more experience than Vader, he is smarter than Vader, far less likely to make a mistake. His Force skilsl are likely superior to Vader, seeing as Vader seemed to only be on par with Kenobi when they tried to Force Push each other and Mace is on an equal level with Yoda on the Council, and for saber skills it's about even but Mace's Vaapad will give Mace another advantage over Anakin as Vaapad's good against Dark Siders, as Mace proved by defeating Sidious in a saber duel.

dont ya think?

its like rain......

id say vader would equal mace in skill and power by this point and the only thing really lacking is his mindset. obi wan had a much better knowlege of vader during this fight than mace would, but both would knw how to push vader into making a mistake.

im just wondering how this fight would go. mace isnt the type to give ground and thats what obi wan had to do constantly to survive long enough to capitalise on vaders emotion. in a straight head to head i dont know if mace could win. he has the experience and cool head to win this how obi wan did, but he doesnt have obi wans defencive capabilities. mace is all offence, anakin is all offence, and turning his own defence into offence. if you listen to nick gillard anakin is at yodas level during his final fight against obi wan, his only problem is hes still in between two worlds. im almost tempted to call it 50/50.

obi wans style let him hold on enough and watch for a mistake, mace seems like hed be pushing and pushing for the win and that might not be too effective. if its an eu fight and mace has his shatterpoint ability hed probably win, in the movie i dont know. 50/50?