Mace Windu vs Darth Vader

Source, I don't remember it being in the cartoon....?

And wrong, Kenobi is on the level of Dooku with the blade. Kenobi was able to kill Grievous with relative ease, all it took him was just some dodging. Kenobi has the speed and defense to take on people like Anakin (who pwned Dooku) and Yoda.

As for the Force, Kenobi is able to block Dooku's Lightning in AOTC! Yes, Dooku has Choke, but both of there Pushes seem about equal. Kenobi flung Grievous away like a fly and brought down a ton of metal on the MagnaGuards while Dooku threw Kenobi away. However, Dooku is better, but I won't he's so much than Obi-Wan, just simply better.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
That doesnt put him on par with Dooku in terms of the force. In ROTS we can physically see the expression of Kenobi's face when he performed the move. It is obvious it used a fair bit of effort. However in the CW we see Dooku throw GG around with the force as if it were nothing. Putting, imo, Dooku a fair notch or three above Kenobi in this area.

Sorry, but I couldnt resist adding my two cents.

Well it was my impression that when an actor is told to "act" in a movie, that occasionally a facial expression comes out when being caught up in the moment, whereas a CARTOON, has no facial expression. That'd be a menial detail that the artist probably wouldn't be concerned with when trying to meet a deadline on a cartoon that isn't known for it's "high quality" art work. And using facial expressions to determine the level of power in the force??? please...thats down right dumb. Look at Yoda's face when doing some things he does...does his grimace indicate that he's not as powerful as Dooku's cartoon character? I think not.

True. But you must look at it from an in-universe perspective. Not 'one is a cartoon and one ia a movie'. We see Kenobi use a large amount of effort pushing Greivous whereas Dooku simply pushes him to the side as if it is nothing. Also CW Greivous is seen as far stronger, being able to dodge force pushes and the like.

Although it really doesnt matter. Kenobi isnt in the same league as Dooku in terms of the force.

no he's not, but you cant look at everything as "in universe" cause then people pick and choose whats more canon and all of a sudden EU projects, such as CW, aren't even canon. You also have to look at how hard and far GG got pushed. He went back pretty hard, and it was enough to make him try to retreat. I'm sure he wasn't fighting Dooku with the same ferocity that he was fighting OB1 with.

Dooku's better, but i wouldn't put him FAR above him. Just by a fair amount though.

This is off topic. 🙁

@Prodigal:

I am awestruck by some of your claims. That you would suggest that Obi-Wan is on par with Count Dooku is completely baseless and unbelievable. By RotS, Anakin is his superior in swordsmanship.

Logical Question: So how is it that he is able to hold off his superior (Anakin) and someone on par with him (Obi-Wan) simultaneously?

Logical Answer: Because, only when Anakin is unrestrained is he above and beyond Count Dooku, and Obi-Wan is no match for Count Dooku in an all out fight, because he is a lesser duelist and a lesser Force user.

Obi-Wan's sole claim to fame is his defense. I will admit, his defense is likely unrivaled as a swordsman. But this does not mean that he can take anyone. We know for a fact (thanks to Yoda) that Obi-Wan is no match for Palpatine (which logically means he's no match for Yoda, either).

In an all out fight, he could not stand against Mace Windu or Dooku either. The only reason he defeated Anakin was because of his rational thinking, his intimate knowledge of Anakin's lightsaber form, Anakin's tactics, Anakin's strengths and weaknesses, and Anakin's state of mind.

The moment that Count Dooku realized he was being duped, he unleashed his trump card: his Force powers. He disabled Obi-Wan very easily, with the Force. Deny it all you want, but he is no where close to Count Dooku in terms of mastery and refinement of the Force. Considering how Dooku has seven decades of Force training, from the two most powerful Force users (bar Luke), I'd say that Obi-Wan pales in comparison.

I hope you bury this issue completely. Your assertions are seriously without any base to them. In an all out fight without Anakin to assist him, Obi-Wan would die against Count Dooku, without too much difficulty.

@Traya:

Honestly, I think the issue is with Lucas' mishapen and odd intentions. I honestly see Dooku as being superior to the duo, when he's using the force offensively. I accept that Anakin defeated Dooku in lightsabre combat, but honestly; what was to stop Dooku just reversing the targets and wasting Anakin with the force and kicking Kenobi backwards? In that case, Dooku would have effectively owned them both.

Circumstance effectively gave Anakin a natural advantage and combined with Anakin's raw power and skill gave Dooku something that he couldn't handle.

I can only assume that Dooku chose to put Obi-Wan out of the fight because he wanted to beat him in the traditional sense - in a lightsaber duel. That, or maybe Anakin wouldn't have succumbed as easily to such an attack - given that Anakin's raw command and strength in the Force far exceeds Dooku's (as well as Yoda's and Sidious's as well) own.

However, I don't believe that Anakin would have won (or would have won as quickly) had Dooku not attacked Obi-Wan. As Palpatine has said before, Obi-Wan is Anakin's "restraint". Killing, attacking, or otherwise harming Obi-Wan is a way to really piss Anakin off.

And, when that happened, Anakin manhandled Count Dooku pretty easily, in their saber contest.

@ Escape

I am awestruck by some of your claims. That you would suggest that Obi-Wan is on par with Count Dooku is completely baseless and unbelievable. By RotS, Anakin is his superior in swordsmanship.

1.) What does Anakin have to do with this?

2.) My basic point is that Dooku isn't so much higher than Kenobi. So in a way I guess I am trying to say that he might be on par with Tyrannus.

Logical Question: So how is it that he is able to hold off his superior (Anakin) and someone on par with him (Obi-Wan) simultaneously?

Read this:

I don't agree. In the movie, you first see Anakin and Obi-Wan using different lightsaber forms, which they don't masterfully know. You see Obi-Wan going on the offensive with Shii-Cho. Now when they resorted back to their original forms, they couldn't properly utilize them. Anakin's Djem So requires fierce long strikes and Kenobi's Soresu requires space and a vast arena. Anakin couldn't go full Djem So berserk on Dooku unless he had space otherwise he could have accidently cut Kenobi in half.

Continuation on this: Dooku’s Makashi is a one-handed form. In sword combat, wielding a sword with a one-hand gives you better control to spin your weapon to block multiple crafts. Makashi is built for fighting lightsabers. You see Dooku in AOTC being able to swing his saber in circles against Yoda, who moves like two Jedi combined.

This gives him a natural fighting advantage against Obi-Wan and Anakin.

Logical Answer: Because, only when Anakin is unrestrained is he above and beyond Count Dooku, and Obi-Wan is no match for Count Dooku in an all out fight, because he is a lesser duelist and a lesser Force user.

Well true, but the thing is Anakin is never calm. Every time he fights he uses anger. Even when he fought against Dooku, he gets angry. This is shown in the duel against Dooku by Anakin’s angry comments. Even in a fight against droids, you always see an angry grimace in Anakin. It’s Anakin’s anger that defines him, otherwise he can never take on Dooku or anyone else.

Obi-Wan's sole claim to fame is his defense. I will admit, his defense is likely unrivaled as a swordsman. But this does not mean that he can take anyone. We know for a fact (thanks to Yoda) that Obi-Wan is no match for Palpatine (which logically means he's no match for Yoda, either).

Just a question, where does it say he’s no match for Palps? In the movie, Yoda says “your not strong enough”. Does that mean that Kenobi would get wtfpwned by Sidious? No, Yoda is telling Obi-Wan that, “yes you can fight the Dark Lord, however you WILL lose. You have a much better chance against Vader”. And Kenobi has the speed to fight against Yoda and Dooku. Also, yes his Soresu is literally impenetrable.

In an all out fight, he could not stand against Mace Windu or Dooku either. The only reason he defeated Anakin was because of his rational thinking, his intimate knowledge of Anakin's lightsaber form, Anakin's tactics, Anakin's strengths and weaknesses, and Anakin's state of mind.

Yes, he will lose to Dooku, but that doesn’t necessarily make him a lot worse than the two of them.

The moment that Count Dooku realized he was being duped, he unleashed his trump card: his Force powers. He disabled Obi-Wan very easily, with the Force. Deny it all you want, but he is no where close to Count Dooku in terms of mastery and refinement of the Force. Considering how Dooku has seven decades of Force training, from the two most powerful Force users (bar Luke), I'd say that Obi-Wan pales in comparison.

Yes, but the thing was Dooku had the element of surprise. While Obi-Wan thought he was duping Dooku, he forgot that Dooku also had a backup: the Force. That’s why when he and Anakin hit Dooku, they didn’t think he would suddenly use the Force. They believed he might jump back and continue fighting saber against saber.

If the two fought, Kenobi has the intelluctual mind to definitely know that Dooku will use the Force. He knows Dooku uses Choke and Lightning and Whirlwind. Kenobi is capable of doing many of Dooku’s feats, excluding the Lightning and Choke.

The possible scenario if Dooku and Obi-Wan battled would be:

Dooku and Obi-Wan face each other across the arena. Dooku immediately unleashes a bolt of Lightning at Kenobi. Kenobi easily blocks it. Dooku then jumps into the air and so does Kenobi. They bang their sabers in midair and begin a fierce duel. After a while, Dooku realizes that Kenobi is very hard to break through. He kicks Kenobi back and then proceeds to do a Choke. The Choke lands and Obi-Wan is suffocating, however the Soresu master knows what to do. He saw Dooku moving his hands for the Choke, so he retaliates via a Push. Dooku roll back and gets back on his feet. Kenobi starts bring debris off the wall on Dooku. Dooku lifts these rocks up and torpedoes them at Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan slices them quickly however he gets blinded by a sea of red saber. Obi-Wan is helpless as Dooku does a Push and he slams against the wall. Dooku Chokes Kenobi and Pulls him. Obi-Wan looks on with despair as the Makashi master slices off his head…

I hope you bury this issue completely. Your assertions are seriously without any base to them. In an all out fight without Anakin to assist him, Obi-Wan would die against Count Dooku, without too much difficulty.

I doubt it. Obi-Wan would last long enough against Dooku for him to be impressed.

I'm seriously not even going to bother debating with you anymore. This is ridiculous.

What's you problem? Scared (I doubt it, but that's pretty measely of you to back out)? I don't see what's so ridiculous about what I said. What you said seems ridiculous as you're so ready to argue for Dooku and then you back out on the claim of "this is ridiculous" which is stupid and rude.

No, what's pretty stupid is suggesting that Obi-Wan is on par with Dooku, despite Dooku putting Obi-Wan out of the fight in a single move while simultaneously handling Anakin.

You think you've composed a good argument? I'm not impressed. Go watch RotS again, and look specifically for Dooku kicking Anakin in the chest, and then manhandling Obi-Wan.

Damn, Prodigal.

Obviously you don't know the meaning of how-to-read as I covered all of that.

And I don't give a damn if you're not impressed by my argument. That gives you no reason to say this is ridiculous.

Man Escape, I didn't think you were quite so rude. Obviously you ignoring my posts tells me something of your typical demeanor.

I was under the assumption that Dooku took out Obiwan to get him out of his way so he could test Anakin, as instructed by Sidious.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Man Escape, I didn't think you were quite so rude. Obviously you ignoring my posts tells me something of your typical demeanor.

I could reply with something along the lines of:

"Man, Prodigal. I didn't think you were quite so [I]stupid. Obviously the sheer incompetence laced in your posts tells me something of your typical intelligence."[/I]

But that would be rude. I think you should know by now that I don't typically refuse to debate unless the argument I am debating against is simply too ridiculous.

I saw RotS. Obi-Wan is weaker than Dooku, and is much weaker in the Force.

Originally posted by Escape81
I could reply with something along the lines of:

"Man, Prodigal. I didn't think you were quite so [I]stupid. Obviously the sheer incompetence laced in your posts tells me something of your typical intelligence."[/I]

But that would be rude. I think you should know by now that I don't typically [B]refuse to debate unless the argument I am debating against is simply too ridiculous.

I saw RotS. Obi-Wan is weaker than Dooku, and is much weaker in the Force. [/B]

lol, is it just me or is Escape totally mean now. He's like the new Advent.

I could reply with something along the lines of:

"Man, Prodigal. I didn't think you were quite so stupid. Obviously the sheer incompetence laced in your posts tells me something of your typical intelligence."

But that would be rude. I think you should know by now that I don't typically refuse to debate unless the argument I am debating against is simply too ridiculous.

I saw RotS. Obi-Wan is weaker than Dooku, and is much weaker in the Force.

Just wonderful my friend. I don't insult my opponent only if I feel I am disgraced.

I saw ROTS too. I KNOW Obi-Wan < Dooku, however I analyzed that fight and I know how Kenobi fights. I know Dooku cannot curbstomp him.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Just wonderful my friend. I don't insult my opponent only if I feel I am disgraced.

I saw ROTS too. I KNOW Obi-Wan < Dooku, however I analyzed that fight and I saw Kenobi fight. I know Dooku cannot curbstomp him.

If that is the case, then your analysis is inaccurate.

I'm going to make this perfectly clear to you. Anakin and Obi-Wan attacked Count Dooku together because they both had to. They duped him into a false sense of security. Ask yourself why. When he discovered their intent, he got serious. And, what did he do? He kicked Anakin in the chest and manhandled Obi-Wan with a single Force maneuver.

Let me spell it out for you: In a single Force attack, Dooku disabled Obi-Wan and put him completely out of the fight. No, that doesn't strike me as Obi-Wan being on par with Dooku.

In the Force, yes, Dooku can easily curbstomp Obi-Wan. Only in a lightsaber fight would he provide any semblance of a threat. And in an all out fight, unless he's got someone on his side who is on par or greater than Dooku, like Anakin, Yoda, Palpatine, or Mace, he will die and he will die easily.

Yes, but the thing was Dooku had the element of surprise. While Obi-Wan thought he was duping Dooku, he forgot that Dooku also had a backup: the Force. That’s why when he and Anakin hit Dooku, they didn’t think he would suddenly use the Force. They believed he might jump back and continue fighting saber against saber.

If the two fought, Kenobi has the intelluctual mind to definitely know that Dooku will use the Force. He knows Dooku uses Choke and Lightning and Whirlwind. Kenobi is capable of doing many of Dooku’s feats, excluding the Lightning and Choke.

Yes, but the thing was Dooku had the element of surprise. While Obi-Wan thought he was duping Dooku, he forgot that Dooku also had a backup: the Force. That’s why when he and Anakin hit Dooku, they didn’t think he would suddenly use the Force. They believed he might jump back and continue fighting saber against saber.

You don't have access to a character's innermost thoughts, Prodigal. You don't know that they weren't expecting Count Dooku to use the Force. There are some things that people can take into consideration, but just not be prepared for. You can't sit here and tell me "oh, they thought he was going to do THIS instead of THIS", because you do not know.

It is highly possible that he just overpowered them, as his mastery of the Force is greater than Anakin's or Obi-Wan's at this point in the juncture.

If the two fought, Kenobi has the intelluctual mind to definitely know that Dooku will use the Force. He knows Dooku uses Choke and Lightning and Whirlwind. Kenobi is capable of doing many of Dooku’s feats, excluding the Lightning and Choke.

The two did fight, and Obi-Wan's intellect didn't save him from Count Dooku's vastly superior Force powers. And, Obi-Wan is not capable of performing Force lightning or choke.

Sorry. In a Force fight, Obi-Wan is owned. Curbstomped.

In a lightsaber fight? Obi-Wan's defense will provide some trouble, but Dooku will still win in the end.

In an all out fight? Think of RotS but faster when there's no pesky Anakin to deal with.

uh, excluding means can't.