Ragnos Power Thread
This is not much of a versus thread, however like the title suggests, this thread is about how "powerful" Marka Ragnos is. So I guess it's about the VS. strength of Marka. Many people put Ragnos as the second most powerful Sith Lord or in the top five.
My question is Ragnos really that powerful? I do not know much about ths Sith Lord except he was the evil spirit in Jedi Academy. And is Ragnos deserving to be the second or one of the strongest Sith ever?
Please discuss.
I believe he's about as powerful as Sidious but that isn't saying much. They're both weak.
Wow. You don't know anything about SW, it seems.
And PK, this topic should help.
That Ragnos is more powerful than Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh means that he's certainly up there. However, nothing about him as far as his powers are concerned has been released. I don't believe he's as powerful as the 'old crew' used to think, but I'm sure he's one of the most powerful.
I'd say, though, that LotF/NJO Luke, Emperor Palpatine, and Yoda are all above him. I'd also put Jacen, Kyp, Mace Windu, Exar Kun, Bane, and Revan near/on par/above him as well.
Originally posted by Escape81
That Ragnos is more powerful than Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh means that he's certainly up there. However, nothing about him as far as his powers are concerned has been released. I don't believe he's as powerful as the 'old crew' used to think, but I'm sure he's one of the most powerful.I'd say, though, that LotF/NJO Luke, Emperor Palpatine, and Yoda are all above him. I'd also put Jacen, Kyp, Mace Windu, Exar Kun, Bane, and Revan near/on par/above him as well.
WHile I completely disagree with Escape, I would only put Sidious above him JUST because the text says so, and only Luke above him as a Jedi.
Originally posted by Escape81
Elaborate, DS. Why do you disagree with me?
Because Ragnos was the most powerful of the ancient sith. Because it's clear that he knew certain techniques such as the Nihilus' force drain, and had a frightening grasp of the dark side. Besides there's little evidence of anyone being more powerful than the ancient sith(mainly him), with the exception of Palpatine.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Why is he the most powerful of the Ancient Sith? Source and context if available please.
He ruled the Sith for 100 years without a challenger. Naga, who probably came the closest to taking out the Republic by brute force, was deftly scared of him. He didn't challenge his position till the very end of Ragnos.
Little evidence of anyone being more powerful than the Ancient Sith?
Very interesting.
Naga Sadow was forced to rely on technological trinkets to hold any considerable power. His ship was the amplification for his Force powers. It allowed him to perform all of his nifty feats. His sheer personal power may very well be pathetic.
Kressh is supposed to be equal to Sadow, so that puts him in the same boat.
We've seen weaklings use devices of the Ancient Sith to perform anything noteworthy.
Ragnos's power is unknown. As I told you before. Evidence shows us that the Ancient Sith used this technology and these artifacts because they could not do it themselves. Sadow couldn't perform his feats without his ships; he could not generate amulet blasts without the amulet in question; and it is very, very possible that Ragnos required his staff to perform the drain.
Compare him to Palpatine:
- Palpatine's Dark side energies were so intense that they were literally ravaging his entire body. When have we ever seen such a display of power in the dark side?
- Palpatine's raw command of the dark side required that he drain the life energy from Byss to sustain his own.
- The Visual Guide confirms that in Sithisis, Palpatine used his arcane knowledge of the Force and Dark Side rituals increased his power, and sent waves of anxiety and ripples in the Force felt by all Jedi, throughout the war, which helped to weaken them.
- Palpatine accumulated more Sith/dark side knowledge than any Sith before him.
- His fight with Luke generated such intense waves of energy that it killed bystanders.
This and more. From what we know, Palpatine's raw power far exceeds any Ancient Sith - including Ragnos.
Then, you have Luke - who is more powerful than Palpatine himself - and Jacen, who rivals Luke. And Yoda, who was the most powerful Jedi bar Luke.
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
He ruled the Sith for 100 years without a challenger. Naga, who probably came the closest to taking out the Republic by brute force, was deftly scared of him. He didn't challenge his position till the very end of Ragnos.
Kaan ruled the Sith and no one challenged him, even though it was clear some Masters didn't like him...
Originally posted by Escape81
Little evidence of anyone being more powerful than the Ancient Sith?Very interesting.
Naga Sadow was forced to rely on technological trinkets to hold any considerable power. His ship was the amplification for his Force powers. It allowed him to perform all of his nifty feats. His sheer personal power may very well be pathetic.
Kressh is supposed to be equal to Sadow, so that puts him in the same boat.
We've seen weaklings use devices of the Ancient Sith to perform anything noteworthy.
Ragnos's power is unknown. As I told you before. Evidence shows us that the Ancient Sith used this technology and these artifacts because they could not do it themselves. Sadow couldn't perform his feats without his ships; he could not generate amulet blasts without the amulet in question; and it is very, very possible that Ragnos required his staff to perform the drain.
Compare him to Palpatine:
- Palpatine's Dark side energies were so intense that they were literally ravaging his entire body. When have we ever seen such a display of power in the dark side?
- Palpatine's raw command of the dark side required that he drain the life energy from Byss to sustain his own.
- The Visual Guide confirms that in Sithisis, Palpatine used his arcane knowledge of the Force and Dark Side rituals increased his power, and sent waves of anxiety and ripples in the Force felt by all Jedi, throughout the war, which helped to weaken them.
- Palpatine accumulated more Sith/dark side knowledge than any Sith before him.
- His fight with Luke generated such intense waves of energy that it killed bystanders.
This and more. From what we know, Palpatine's raw power far exceeds any Ancient Sith - including Ragnos.
Then, you have Luke - who is more powerful than Palpatine himself - and Jacen, who rivals Luke. And Yoda, who was the most powerful Jedi bar Luke.
We've discussed this before. The powers they use as a result of artifacts aren't repeated by anybody WITHOUT those artifacts, therefore it doesn't make them seem weaker. The ancient sith era was the pinnacle of sith/darkside knowledge, otherwise every single sith that wants to multiply his power, wouldn't go to the ancient siht.
You miss the point entirely.
The Ancient Sith relied on technology. Why? Considering what evidence we have, it is likely to compensate for a lack of personal power. Take Sadow's technology away, what does he have left?
Nothing.
Luke and Palpatine are capable of generating massive attacks without the aid of technology. Thus, their feats are far more impressive.
Now, care to speculate if Palpatine or Luke had or wanted to use Ancient Sith technology? What kind've power they'd wield?
Palpatine's raw power far outstrips the Ancient Sith's. And Luke's raw power outstrips Palpatine's.
Originally posted by Escape81
You miss the point entirely.The Ancient Sith relied on technology. Why? Considering what evidence we have, it is likely to compensate for a lack of personal power. Take Sadow's technology away, what does he have left?
Luke and Palpatine are capable of generating massive attacks without the aid of technology. Thus, their feats are [B]far more impressive.Now, care to speculate if Palpatine or Luke had or wanted to use Ancient Sith technology? What kind've power they'd wield?
Palpatine's raw power far outstrips the Ancient Sith's. And Luke's raw power outstrips Palpatine's. [/B]
And this is why Luke is #1 in all of SW, and Sidious is the #1 Sith. Nobody is arguing that.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Kaan ruled the Sith and no one challenged him, even though it was clear some Masters didn't like him...
Different philosophies. Ragnos lived in a time where 'rebellion and civil war were common', where 'the strongest ruled' and he was able to maintain the title of dark lord of the sith for centuries and die a natural death. Noone could do anything about it, Simus tried but ended up decapitated, Sadow clearly hated him so if he were to have been more powerful, he would have killed him.
Not mentioning the fact that Kaan could well have been the most powerful with the exception of Bane, he ruled as a leader in a completely different time with completely different philosophies. 'Everyone was equel' in the BoD, Kaan's talent for being able to inspire his peers ensured that they all believed that him leading them, and what they were doing as a whole was good for the BoD. So basically, he lived in a time where everyone believed that Kaan was best suited for leadership, and all believed that he was doing what was best for the BoD.
You are saying that because they performed feat X with artifacts, they are somehow less than somebody else. Take Ragnos' scepter for instance. You are saying because he has one, it's unlikely that he knew the technique himself or was able to perform it, yet we know Nihilus learned the technique from an ancient sith storehouse. So it's more than likely Ragnos not only KNEW the technique, but created a scepter that would be easier to use for the technique. Hence his "Frightening grasp of the darkside".
No. I am saying that someone who relies on technology or something else for the source of their power is weaker than someone who relies on nothing, and can perform feats on par with them.
Sadow required his technology to perform his feats. Thus, in natural, raw power, the likes of Luke and Sidious are far above him. I consider them more powerful, and by quite a bit.
Ragnos is weaker than Luke or Sidious, because, from what we know, he was the same way. If he were so powerful, DS, why couldn't he have done without the scepter? Given the pragmatism that the Ancient Sith seemed to have, and the fact that the scepter was a powerful weapon, it is highly unlikely that Ragnos just used the damn thing unless he could not perform the technique without it or he couldn't perform it nearly as easily without it, meaning Nihilus's affinity for draining things supercedes his, as Nihilus and Palpatine didn't require technological toys, and yet Nihilus's drain is immense - and Sidious's powers and feats far outstrip any of the Ancient Sith, and so does his raw power.
Conclusion: Because most of them relied on technology to perform considerable feats, they do not compare to the natural power of someone like Luke or Palpatine. If they were to fight, and Sadow didn't have his technology or didn't have time to prepare, and it was a simple-fashioned fight to the death, arena style, Sadow would be obliterated.
Ragnos, again, is also considerably lesser than either Luke or Palpatine at this juncture, because his only claim to fame was performed in the presence of a handy-handy scepter. When he can perform all that Luke and Palpatine has done, without the presence of a technological toy, then I will take some of your beliefs seriously.
In the meantime, don't bother.
And this is why Luke is #1 in all of SW, and Sidious is the #1 Sith. Nobody is arguing that.
You said you put Luke above him as a Jedi, and Palpatine is number one in the Sith category only because "the text says so".
Luke's achievements don't need to be mentioned here. He is more powerful than Palpatine. I mentioned Palpatine's displays of power, and I think it is quite clear that it is above and beyond anything Ragnos or another Sith has displayed.
Originally posted by Escape81
No. I am saying that someone who relies on technology or something else for the source of their power is weaker than someone who relies on nothing, and can perform feats on par with them.Sadow required his technology to perform his feats. Thus, in natural, raw power, the likes of Luke and Sidious are [B]far
above him. I consider them more powerful, and by quite a bit.Ragnos is weaker than Luke or Sidious, because, from what we know, he was the same way. If he were so powerful, DS, why couldn't he have done without the scepter? Given the pragmatism that the Ancient Sith seemed to have, and the fact that the scepter was a powerful weapon, it is highly unlikely that Ragnos just used the damn thing unless he could not perform the technique without it or he couldn't perform it nearly as easily without it, meaning Nihilus's affinity for draining things supercedes his, as Nihilus and Palpatine didn't require technological toys, and yet Nihilus's drain is immense - and Sidious's powers and feats far outstrip any of the Ancient Sith, and so does his raw power.
Conclusion: Because most of them relied on technology to perform considerable feats, they do not compare to the natural power of someone like Luke or Palpatine. If they were to fight, and Sadow didn't have his technology or didn't have time to prepare, and it was a simple-fashioned fight to the death, arena style, Sadow would be obliterated.
Ragnos, again, is also considerably lesser than either Luke or Palpatine at this juncture, because his only claim to fame was performed in the presence of a handy-handy scepter. When he can perform all that Luke and Palpatine has done, without the presence of a technological toy, then I will take some of your beliefs seriously.
In the meantime, don't bother.
You said you put Luke above him as a Jedi, and Palpatine is number one in the Sith category only because "the text says so".
Luke's achievements don't need to be mentioned here. He is more powerful than Palpatine. I mentioned Palpatine's displays of power, and I think it is quite clear that it is above and beyond anything Ragnos or another Sith has displayed. [/B]
Well just because he holds a scepter doesnt mean he uses it, he could have built it long ago so that when he dies, his "followers" could drain the force and then release it into his dead body bringing him back from the dead, Just a theory thought
And by the way, Luke skywalker feared the return of ragnos, he himself stated that he might not be able to take him down alone. He said "theres no telling what ragnos might do, it will take all our effort to stop him"
And by JA he could take DE sidious alone because his mastery of the force greatly surpasses that when he is in DE. He has learnt so much more, Also lets not forget he was suprised when he found out the force could be drained
This gives us a very very small idea of how powerful ragnos might be, And luke does his research well, He must have known how powerful ragnos was 5000 years ago, then why would he fear his return?
Well just because he holds a scepter doesnt mean he uses it, he could have built it long ago so that when he dies, his "followers" could drain the force and then release it into his dead body bringing him back from the dead, Just a theory thought
Nice theory. Nothing to support it, but you never know.
And by the way, Luke skywalker feared the return of ragnos, he himself stated that he might not be able to take him down alone. He said "theres no telling what ragnos might do, it will take all our effort to stop him"
Incorrect.
Luke had no idea what power Ragnos possessed. That is why he decided to put all of his efforts into stopping him. He was concerned about the unknown. He had absolutely no idea what Ragnos was capable of.
And, pardon me, but wasn't Ragnos's spirit dispelled by an "above average" Jedi Knight, singlehandedly?
And by JA he could take DE sidious alone because his mastery of the force greatly surpasses that when he is in DE. He has learnt so much more, Also lets not forget he was suprised when he found out the force could be drained
No offense, but you're pulling stuff out of your ass here.
Jedi Academy is set only a few years after the events of Dark Empire. Considering how DE Luke was unable to defeat Palpatine on his own, there's nothing to state that he could do it as of Jedia Academy.
@Dessel:
But Escape, Luke was always powered by the Kaibur Chrystal, so the same can be said about him.
I beg your pardon? Do you read Supershadow...?