Does this matter, so what if they relied on technology, it's not like they wouldn't have access to their technology in a vs. fight situation.
First, understand that we are arguing power. Jollyjim here hit the nail on the head nicely. Without his technology, Sadow's biggest feat of power has been hurling a brick. The benefits of Sith technology do not equate to power. These Ancient Sith lack the power of a Luke Skywalker or an Emperor Palpatine. A case can be made for Jacen Solo, Yoda, Kyp Durron, Mace Windu, Count Dooku, Exar Kun, Darth Revan, and Darth Bane.
The concluding point in that is that nothing indicates that these Ancient Sith were actually strong in the Force at all.
Oh, I know that Ragnos's power was described as "frightening". But that was from a fallible third-party source who was not present to ever witness Ragnos (Kreia). And, it could mean that his powers were frightening compared to the Ancient Sith themselves.
Which means, what? He can toss two bricks?
Second, if someone were to arrange a versus thread without the aid of any technology, which would include amulets, ships, meditation spheres, lightsabers, swords, armor, or orbalisks, I'd say that the Ancient Sith would bite the big one against anyone truly skilled.
And it can just as easily be said that Luke relied on the Kaibur Chrystal to perform all the stuff he does, but does this take anything away from him? No.
Luke does not use the Kaibur Crystal. I'm not sure if that's even canon (Splinter of the Mind's Eye), and I know that Supershadow related articles mean jack in terms of canonicity.
Ultimate visual Guide has it as canon, but, it says : "Luke eventually discovers that the crystals power decreases in direct proportion to its distance from the temple of Pomojema."
Basically, if you hyperdrive away, it doesn't do anything.
Edit: Also, like LS said, he is never seen carrying it around.
Originally posted by Escape81
No. I am saying that someone who relies on technology or something else for the source of their power is weaker than someone who relies on nothing, and can perform feats on par with them.Sadow required his technology to perform his feats. Thus, in natural, raw power, the likes of Luke and Sidious are [B]far
above him. I consider them more powerful, and by quite a bit.Ragnos is weaker than Luke or Sidious, because, from what we know, he was the same way. If he were so powerful, DS, why couldn't he have done without the scepter? Given the pragmatism that the Ancient Sith seemed to have, and the fact that the scepter was a powerful weapon, it is highly unlikely that Ragnos just used the damn thing unless he could not perform the technique without it or he couldn't perform it nearly as easily without it, meaning Nihilus's affinity for draining things supercedes his, as Nihilus and Palpatine didn't require technological toys, and yet Nihilus's drain is immense - and Sidious's powers and feats far outstrip any of the Ancient Sith, and so does his raw power.
Conclusion: Because most of them relied on technology to perform considerable feats, they do not compare to the natural power of someone like Luke or Palpatine. If they were to fight, and Sadow didn't have his technology or didn't have time to prepare, and it was a simple-fashioned fight to the death, arena style, Sadow would be obliterated.
Ragnos, again, is also considerably lesser than either Luke or Palpatine at this juncture, because his only claim to fame was performed in the presence of a handy-handy scepter. When he can perform all that Luke and Palpatine has done, without the presence of a technological toy, then I will take some of your beliefs seriously.
In the meantime, don't bother.
You said you put Luke above him as a Jedi, and Palpatine is number one in the Sith category only because "the text says so".
Luke's achievements don't need to be mentioned here. He is more powerful than Palpatine. I mentioned Palpatine's displays of power, and I think it is quite clear that it is above and beyond anything Ragnos or another Sith has displayed. [/B]
#1. I only said I put SIDIOUS above Ragnos because of text. Luke is clearly #1 in the star wars universe.
#2. I think you should read Nai's theory on the ancient sith, it seems very logical and can be used in a debate.
#3. I think many people fail to realize that the ancient sith didn't just make artifacts to augment their power. As always, their era was the pinnacle of sith knowledge/sith alchemy. If it wasn't, why do all the powerful sith come to them for training and guidance? Anyways they specialized in MPT(Multi purpose tools). You're saying "Oh, because he built a scepter he couldn't use the ability by himself. I'm saying he built the scepter because not only was it easier, but the scepter was used as a multi purpose tool(his sith sword was inside). Naga Sadow's amulets were used to channel rage AND pass down history. His talismans were used to do the same. I don't know how you can deny that the golden age of of the sith was THE pinnacle of sith power/knowledge/alchemy. I don't know how you can say that "Oh they made artifacts because they didn't know the techniques themselves", when people such as Nihilus and Traya learn these techniques from ancient sith storehouses. I guarantee you it's a LOT easier to point a scepter or amulet and let it do the work as opposed to you using the ability and draining yourself. For instance you saw what happened to Luke when he tried creating an illusion. Sadow created whole armies without any problems whatsoever. Again, I find it preposterous when people say "Well they created these things because they couldn't do it themselves". It's not logical at all.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
So, if Sadow could rip cores out of suns, why did he only throw a brick at Kresh when it is clearly stated (in text) that they want to kill each other? If he was so powerful, why not just disintegrate him or something instead of throwing a brick that barely dazed Ludo?
Has it ever occured to you that the reason he didn't do that, and the reason that he didnt just use his amulet, was that the ancient sith had a defense for it?They created it, they MUST have created a defense, otherwise everyone would be blasting everybody else.
No. If Ludo couldn't protect himself from a brick, there's no way he could protect himself from an amulet blast. Unless you're proposing that Sadow created a weapon that Sith (or force users, even) are naturally immune to on purpose...
Maybe it couldn't be used on force sensitives, and he kept it around to keep the slaves in line (or Sith Wyrms). Maybe he just couldn't make an amulet powerful enough to have an effect of force-sensitives. I mean, when Exar used Sadows' magic to freeze the Senate, all the Jedi were un-phased...
Originally posted by jollyjim311
No. If Ludo couldn't protect himself from a brick, there's no way he could protect himself from an amulet blast. Unless you're proposing that Sadow created a weapon that Sith (or force users, even) are naturally immune to on purpose...
Maybe it couldn't be used on force sensitives, and he kept it around to keep the slaves in line (or Sith Wyrms). Maybe he just couldn't make an amulet powerful enough to have an effect of force-sensitives. I mean, when Exar used Sadows' magic to freeze the Senate, all the Jedi were un-phased...
The sith spell was nothing more than a stasis field. As for the amulet blast, the blast itself isn't force oriented. It's a blast that increases in power with anger. Meaning it has no limits. It's not a blast that can be absorbed unless you can prove it.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
What are you talking about? Sidious couldn't protect himself from a force push, but he laid the smack down on everybody. What's your point?The sith spell was nothing more than a stasis field. As for the amulet blast, the blast itself isn't force oriented. It's a blast that increases in power with anger. Meaning it has no limits. It's not a blast that can be absorbed unless you can prove it.
Yoda caught him off guard. That's what happened to Ludo too. Now, instead of throwing a brick, wouldn't it make more sense to use an amulet blast to wipe out Ludo than a simple brick. If Ludo couldn't put up a defence for a brick, then, there's no way he could block an amulet blast. Unless Ludo was immune (there's a huge difference between immune and having a defence) due to him being force sensitive.
Maybe it just multiplies your hatred, so, when using the dark side, you become more powerful. It has no actual powers, but, it makes all of yours stronger. In that case, Sadow was already using the amulet when throwing the brick. There is no "Amulet blast". It's just a force push, that is amplified by hatred, due to the amulet.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Yoda caught him off guard. That's what happened to Ludo too. Now, instead of throwing a brick, wouldn't it make more sense to use an amulet blast to wipe out Ludo than a simple brick. If Ludo couldn't put up a defence for a brick, then, there's no way he could block an amulet blast. Unless Ludo was immune (there's a huge difference between immune and having a defence) due to him being force sensitive.
Maybe it just multiplies your hatred, so, when using the dark side, you become more powerful. It has no actual powers, but, it makes all of yours stronger. In that case, Sadow was already using the amulet when throwing the brick. There is no "Amulet blast". It's just a force push, that is amplified by hatred, due to the amulet.