The point is that you and Rampant seem to have this delusion that "because you beat them once, you obviously can do it again." This is not the case. Regardless of the circumstance, this is but one example of a previously defeated combatant returning to defeat the one who beat him in the first place.
The victim of circumstance? Please. If you, like some of your friends, intend to argue that Dooku lost because Sidious restrained him, or Dooku wasn't going all out,
then I will be very happy to shut that case for you
Dooku lost because a pissed off Anakin wiped his ass with Dooku's defense.
He honed his skill against the dark jedi he trained, yes. I've never denied that. But, then again, it is logical to conclude that Mace didn't let his skills slacken either.
Actually, Mace claims that Depa's bladework may have surpassed his own - and she is trained in Vaapad.
However, Vaapad has an advantage against dark side users,
Given that Mace is a master of the deadliest form, is blessed with a shatterpoint ability, and Vaapad is detrimental to dark side users - what stands to reason that Dooku is obviously better?
Oh, yes. Given that he is the master of Makashi. Well, kudos to him. Yoda stalemated him on Geonosis, kicked his ass on Vjun, and Anakin decapitated him shortly after getting pissed off.
I am going to use a tactic that you have in the very first post."right back at ya!"
Unless, like I said, throwing henchmen at someone obviously is a sign of superiority.
*cough*bullshit*cough*When Anakin got pissed, Dooku lasted about ten seconds. Woo! Yay! Go Mr. Makashi Master!
Dooku, absolutely pwning the duo? Yeah... okay. That's why he was constantly giving ground, and the novelization goes so far as to that he was barely holding Obi-Wan (a defensive attacker) and a restrained Anakin at bay.
And the novelisation, again, contradicts the movie in too many places to be used as a viable source.
Hence why he had to separate Obi-Wan from Anakin. Little did he know that that single move was the thing that ended his life.
Yoda had over eight centuries on Sidious, who was younger than Dooku - and who is, supposedly, an inferior duelist to the Count. Why don't you think, please?
Hmm. Let's see, Faunus. Why not add the setting in? The battle was set on Vjun - a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force. Naturally, it stifled Yoda's powers. To top it off, Yoda was distracted, trying to save a woman from plummeting to her death. That's when Dooku attacked.
Then guess what happened? He distracted and fled. Such is his tactic, it seems. Twice against Yoda and once against Windu.
Yes, because Grievous acquitted himself so well against Obi-Wan...
I don't deny that. Yet, Grievous is supposed to be greater than Ventress, a fact that Dooku confirmed in Dark Rendezvous. And Obi-Wan raped him in a fight.
Ah! Good. Great job, Faunus. Now, explain to me why - especially since this is the case - Dooku "was hard pressed to outduel the cyborg"?
And if you'd read LoE, you'd have the answer yourself. Just because Dooku found himself struggling a little doesn't mean he was in any danger of being defeated, not unless you consider Windu's comments on the general's skill and power to equate to a risk of loss.
Oh, yes, I forgot. The Magnaguards were supposed to be expecting for Dooku to attack them in the middle of the lecture. Funny. I thought they stopped fighting and listened. My mistake.
Please. Once again, if you're going to argue this, I will have no problem shutting this case down for you. Permenantly. Dooku lost because a pissed off Anakin is too powerful for him. Period.
But he didn't. Or maybe he thought a hard kick to the chest that sent Anakin smacking against a wall would be sufficient enough.
And again, you avoid my point.
Or maybe it was because of Dooku's consumate arrogance that made him disable Kenobi - before attacking Skywalker.
Like I said: Anakin curbstomped Dooku because he was too powerful.
You sure? 'Cause Obi-Wan seemed to equip himself nicely against Dooku's lightning. Sidious is far more powerful than Dooku in the Force. Just because Mace had problem with Sidious's doesn't mean that he's going to have problems with Dooku's.
Or do you believe Dooku is equal or superior to Sidious in the Force? Doesn't matter. He's not.
Anyways, if AotC Obi-Wan can easily fend of Dooku's lightning - don't see why RotS Mace Windu can't.
See the above.
Which, as it seems - he'd win.
I'm going to kill this whole issue of Dooku vs. Anakin before we proceed, Faunus.
---------------------------
From the official RotS commentary:
"The major issue here is, I put Dooku in after Darth Maul was killed to establish that the Emperor's assistant - or the other Sith - could take Jedi and convert them. In this particular case, the idea is that Palpatine is testing Anakin to see if he's strong enough to become his apprentice, and he doesn't tell Dooku what he's actually up too. Dooku thinks that he's just going to fight Anakin. But the whole thing is a set-up by the Emperor to test Anakin's strength and when Anakin is strong enough - which he proves to be by killing Dooku - then the Emperor's ready to convert him over to the Dark Side, to become his new apprentice."
There you go. Taken word-for-word from the RotS feature commentary. Now . .
- Combine this with the exact screenplay that I provided (which I will provide at the end of this post).
- "Soon I will have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful." - Darth Sidious/Palpatine
- The fact that Palpatine's "test" could only be accurate if he pit Dooku and Anakin up against each other, unrestrained.
. . . and you have an open and shut case. George Lucas, the official screenplay, a quote from the movie, and the fact of accuracy all indicate and state that Anakin is greater and more powerful than Count Dooku.
About the Anakin versus Dooku fight I've found:
"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."
--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41.
From the official script:
38 INT. GENERAL'S QUARTER'S-TRADE FEDERATION CRUISER
The elevator door opens and the TWO JEDI carefully make their way into the main room of the General's Quarters.
At the far end sits SUPREME CHANCELLOR PALPATINE. ANAKIN and OBI-WAN move toward the CHANCELLOR.
As they get closer to PALPATINE, they see a very distressed look on the Chancellor's face.
(con't...)
OBI-WAN and ANAKIN charge COUNT DOOKU. A great sword fight ensues.
(con't...)
As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired. ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry.
ANAKIN continues to drive the attack on DOOKU. COUNT DOOKU throws OBI-WAN back using the Force.
ANAKIN and COUNT DOOKU move up the stairs. As they reach the upper landing of the General's Quarters, ANAKIN leaps over COUNT DOOKU. OBI-WAN reaches the top of the stairs, destroying TWO SUPER BATTLE DROIDS. COUNT DOOKU holds OBI-WAN in the air using the Force as he turns and kicks ANAKIN out of frame. OBI-WAN is choking.
ANAKIN hits the archway.
DOOKU sends OBI-WAN flying. The Jedi tumbles to the lower level unconscious. COUNT DOOKU spins around again and, using the Force, causes a section of the balcony to drop onto OBI-WAN.
ANAKIN spins and kicks COUNT DOOKU, sending him over the balcony. ANAKIN Jumps, following him down to the main floor. COUNT DOOKU and ANAKIN continue the fight.
(con't...)
Anakin regains his composure and attacks COUNT DOOKU as the Dark Lord continues his spin to meet him head on. Their fighting becomes even more intense.
Anakin attacks COUNT DOOKU with a new ferociousness.
(con't...)
Anakin and Dooku continue their fight. It is intense !
Finally, in one last energized charge, ANAKIN cuts off COUNT DOOKU's hands.
The Jedi catches the lightsaber as it drops from the severed Sith Lord's hand. COUNT DOOKU stumbles to the floor as ANAKIN puts the two lightsabers to his neck.
PALPATINE is grinning as he watches COUNT DOOKU's defeat.
(finished)
--------------
There you go. If you need any more convincing, I can get Advent here.
Just to add to what Faunus was saying. Dooku was clearly winning that duel before Sidious decided to intervene.
From the ROTS novelization
Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. «I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child.»
He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusing finger. "Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?»
Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk.
Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round
each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could.
Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene.
«Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!» he barked in Palpatine's voice. «Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill
him!»
From "canon sources" Dooku's feints and proficient use of taunts was enough to pierce through Anakins offense and give Tyrannus the upper hand. In fact, Dooku becomes playful and begins to toy with Anakin, as indicated by the quote, "Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round ..."
If the setting were a neutral arena (hint: like the one that they are fighting in now) Sidious would not be around to give Anakin a "morale boost." Dooku would have definately won that duel if it were not for Sidious' timely betrayal.
Fighting is not all about ZOMG teh RaW pOWeR!!111. Victory in battle is also about feints, tactics, psychological edge... etc., of which the brilliant Count has an abundance of.
I do not deny that Count Dooku was winning the fight before Anakin gave into his anger.
However, according to the very same novelization, the very second he decided to use his rage: "Dooku was already dead. The rest was just detail."
Quite plainly, Anakin obliterated him with unspeakable ease. The fight was set on equal terms. I've provided two quotes from Lucas that make it quite clear that Sidious orchestrated the fight and did not restrain either Count Dooku or Anakin. As I asked Faunus, how inept would that be? To orchestrate a fight that ultimately decides which one shall be your apprentice - if you have the fight rigged?
It is illogical. And Lucas disagrees. Thus, your opinion is moot.
Edit: By the way, if anyone was restrained, it was Anakin.
Originally posted by Gideon
I do not deny that Count Dooku was winning the fight before Anakin gave into his anger.
However, according to the very same novelization, the very second he decided to use his rage: "[B]Dooku was already dead. The rest was just detail."
That is if Anakin was able to control that rage without Palpatine's assistance. Which he was clearly unable to do. By virtue of the very quote, (which you seem to have avoided) Dooku was playing Anakin like a violin. Anakin's rage was suppressed by Dooku's taunts as stated in ROTS novelization "Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt"
The fight was set on equal terms.
Bullshit.
Equal terms would be no interference by Palpatine, and Dooku continuing "to meet the boy's charge easily." Equal terms would be no extra expenditure of energy by dealing initially with two enemies. Dooku would have undoubtedly won in equal terms, not through raw power, but by sheer intelligent fighting. Taunts, feints...Tyrannus was using these with extreme proficiency to dominate Anakin. Again, argue with the novelization, not me.
It is illogical. And Lucas disagrees. Thus, your opinion is moot.
Lucas can say that Anakin is stronger till he is blue in the face. The simple fact is fighting does not soley depend on raw power… it depends on feints, taunts and the psychological. These are what Dooku possesses over ROTS Anakin, and it was by these elements that he was dominating Anakin, until Palpatine’s treachery. Your opinion is moot.
That is if Anakin was able to control that rage without Palpatine's assistance. Which he was clearly unable to do. By virtue of the very quote, (which you seem to have avoided) Dooku was playing Anakin like a violin. Anakin's rage was suppressed by Dooku's taunts as stated in ROTS novelization "Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt"
Palpatine's assistance? No, Zephiel. There was no help from Palpatine, save for a single remark that didn't, as I recall, make its way to the movie itself.
Bullshit.Equal terms would be no interference by Palpatine, and Dooku continuing "to meet the boy's charge easily." Equal terms would be no extra expenditure of energy by dealing initially with two enemies. Dooku would have undoubtedly won in equal terms, not through raw power, but by sheer intelligent fighting. Taunts, feints...Tyrannus was using these with extreme proficiency to dominate Anakin. Again, argue with the novelization, not me.
Lucas said, quite clearly, that the fight wasn't set on any rigged terms. Palpatine did not interfere other than, as I said, a single remark that did not make its way into the movie. Count Dooku taunted Anakin and paid the price. And, please, after Count Dooku disposed of Obi-Wan, Anakin was already pushing Dooku back - driving him on the defensive.
Dominating Anakin? Wrong. The only dominating that occured was when Anakin wiped his ass with Dooku's defense in about ten seconds.
Lucas can say that Anakin is stronger till he is blue in the face.
And Lucas, being the supreme authority regarding Star Wars, would be correct - meaning his views overturn yours. If you want to argue differently, argue elsewhere. No one cares about your opinion when it conflicts with a canon source: Lucas.
The simple fact is fighting does not soley depend on raw power… it depends on feints, taunts and the psychological. These are what Dooku possesses over ROTS Anakin, and it was by these elements that he was dominating Anakin, until Palpatine’s treachery. Your opinion is moot.
Wrong. Your point is moot. You want to defy canon? Go right ahead. That alone ends your argument.
Originally posted by Gideon
Palpatine's assistance? No, Zephiel. There was no help from Palpatine, save for a single remark that didn't,
No help from Palpatine? You’ll pardon me if I chuckle a bit over this, because really its quite hilarious how you are avoiding the obvious quote from the novelization that is G canon.
Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt
...
Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round
each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could.
Lets decide to ignore obvious canon elaborations on the fight scene, and ignoring how Dooku was tooling Anakin by taunting him and playing on his fears. Yes Escape, that is what a good fighter does. He doesn’t scream and charge in like a bull with pure brute strength.
Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene.
«Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!» he barked in Palpatine's voice. «Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill
Its written plain and simple, Dooku was winning the battle. Palpatine intervened with his encouragement and took the victory from Dooku. In an arena battle, where Palpatine is not around, Anakin would have lost.
as I recall, make its way to the movie itself.
I’m sorry, but I couldn’t help but recognize the sheer irony associated with this statement. You and Advent, as I recall, used the novelization quite a bit to support your arguments that Anakin is the stronger duelist. Now you are implying that since it does not make its way to the movie, that it is invalid. Double standards much?
It’s G canon, and it was an elaboration on the movie. It contradicts nothing. Anakin was still having more force potential and raw strength. However, that wasn’t saving his ass in the above described scene. It was Palpatine’s encouragement. In a neutral arena, if this battle were allowed to proceed to the finish without external influence, Skywalker would have been defeated.
Palpatine did not interfere other than, as I said, a single remark
Can we say avoiding the point? Laughable. He interfered; it was this interference that caused Dooku’s taunts to be nullified. You still have not responded, how in an effectively neutral arena where “Palpatine” won’t be around to offer little old Ani moral support, Dooku would toy around with his feelings and ultimately kick his ass. “A simple taunt” made him lose his combat skill and "edge". Palpatine is not around to give him encouragement and nullify Dooku’s taunts and feints. You do the math.
Dooku taunted Anakin and paid the price.
Inasmuch as you are 180 degrees out of phase with reality. Dooku was toying with Anakin by taunting him. Palpatine interfered. Get over it.
And, please, after Count Dooku disposed of Obi-Wan, Anakin was already pushing Dooku back - driving him on the defensive.
Because of course, dealing with two duelists does not lead to a larger expenditure of energy than dealing with one singe duelist. Ever thought that through, Logic-Hound? He was tired out, he even mentions in the novelization that he was tiring from fighting two opponents at once.
Dominating Anakin? Wrong. The only dominating that occured was when Anakin wiped his ass with Dooku's defense in about ten seconds.
You’ll pardon me if I remain skeptical. The novelization states that he was enjoying the battle, toying with Anakin, taunting and suppressing his skills, before Palpatine betrayed him.
And Lucas, being the supreme authority regarding Star Wars, would be correct - meaning his views overturn yours.
Um…reading comprehension much? I never stated that Lucas was wrong. I said that he believes Anakin was the better combatant in pure raw power and physical skill, not all around with all things considered….psychological advantage, feints, taunts. This is clearly indicated in the novelization.
If you want to argue differently, argue elsewhere. No one cares about your opinion when it conflicts with a canon source: Lucas.
In seeing that you are accusing me of going against George Lucas, I’ll just laugh it off. I never said that Anakin was weaker in raw strength or physical prowess. The fact is, his character flaws (uncontrollable emotions) leads him to have a down side in the big picture of combat. Dooku was capitalizing on Anakin’s insecurities as a true combatant would, and was dominating Anakin prior to Palpatine’s betrayal.
Wrong. Your point is moot. You want to defy canon? Go right ahead. That alone ends your argument. [/B]
I haven’t contradicted canon one bit. You are obviously getting worked up because your ROTS god is not quite what you thought he was.
What a joke.
You make it seem as though Palpatine got up from the chair, pulled out his lightsaber, and attacked Count Dooku along with Anakin. He did not. According to the novel, he simply blurted out a single remark.
Need I remind you what happened then?
"Dooku was already dead. The rest is mere detail."
Now, that is what you call an "ass kicking", in its finest, purest form. The moment that that happened, Anakin had already won the damn duel, Zephiel, and nothing that Count Dooku did throughout the entire course of the fight - even with Obi-Wan - came close to that amount of dominance.
"The major issue here is, I put Dooku in after Darth Maul was killed to establish that the Emperor's assistant - or the other Sith - could take Jedi and convert them. In this particular case, the idea is that Palpatine is testing Anakin to see if he's strong enough to become his apprentice, and he doesn't tell Dooku what he's actually up too. Dooku thinks that he's just going to fight Anakin. But the whole thing is a set-up by the Emperor to test Anakin's strength and when Anakin is strong enough - which he proves to be by killing Dooku - then the Emperor's ready to convert him over to the Dark Side, to become his new apprentice."
I suppose you didn't read this, which came from Lucas himself, who is the highest authority. Aside from common logic, Zephiel (you seem to struggle with that), which indicates (quite plainly) that Sidious could not have had any accurate results from this "test" if he restrained Dooku and offered more support for Anakin - then how exactly would he determine which of the two is more powerful?
Sadly, Faunus is incorrect. According to the Making of RotS and Labyrinth of Evil, Sidious himself agreed that Anakin may never be ready to serve the Sith, which would mean that he would have likely let Dooku kill Anakin if that were the case. He had no pre-emptive bias for Anakin. He simply wanted to see which one would win.
Now, if I may gather your attention to this quote from Lucas (again, the ultimate canon source):
"But the whole thing is a set-up by the Emperor to test Anakin's strength and when Anakin is strong enough - w[I]hich he proves to be by killing Dooku - then the Emperor's ready to convert him over to the Dark Side, to become his new apprentice.[/I]"
Right there. Anakin proves his strength to become the Emperor's new apprentice by killing the current one - meaning that Anakin's power surpassed Count Dooku's. He showed his superior power, which was what Palpatine was after all along. The stronger pawn, and RotS clearly decided that it was Anakin, not Dooku.
So, no. Lucas doesn't say "oh, Anakin's physically stronger and has a higher potential", he just says he's stronger. He kicked Dooku's ass.
Now, let's see if I can direct your attention to part of the script (which is also, like the novelization, a G-canon source):
"As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired. ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry."
We have it right here. Obi-Wan and Dooku grow more fatigued, but as Anakin's anger builds - he becomes stronger. Hmm. Could that be a factor as to his victory over Dooku? I guess so.
Count Dooku even stated in the novel that not only was Anakin's physical strength astounding - so was his energy and raw power. Dooku could not handle that. In fact, the novelization goes so far as to say that Obi-Wan (who is a defensive duelist) and a restrained Anakin nearly shut him down. He used nearly all of his Force reserves trying to keep them at bay, and his handling of Obi-Wan was "desparate" - and even then, "Skywalker was all over him".
"Anakin and Dooku continue their fight. It is intense !
Finally, in one last energized charge, ANAKIN cuts off COUNT DOOKU's hands."
There is where the script confirms that Anakin's energy helped him overpower Dooku.
"Dooku was already dead. The rest was merely detail."
Keep going back to that point. That is total and utter annihilation, Zephiel.
Count Dooku lost the fight because Anakin's raw power crushed his defense.
Its written plain and simple, Dooku was winning the battle. Palpatine intervened with his encouragement and took the victory from Dooku. In an arena battle, where Palpatine is not around, Anakin would have lost.
Palpatine’s words merely encouraged Anakin to tap into and let go of what he alreayd had. It’s like a dog on the end of a leash that is snarling and growling. It’s ability to rip you to shreds is there but let go of the leash and it’s in your face. May I also remind you that this is ROTS Vader who has fully tapped into the dark side? Just unleashing it allowed him to beat down Dooku in saber combat. What would immersing himself in it do if he fought Dooku again? I said that Dooku’s only hope is to get him with The Force.
I’m sorry, but I couldn’t help but recognize the sheer irony associated with this statement. You and Advent, as I recall, used the novelization quite a bit to support your arguments that Anakin is the stronger duelist. Now you are implying that since it does not make its way to the movie, that it is invalid. Double standards much?It’s G canon, and it was an elaboration on the movie. It contradicts nothing. Anakin was still having more force potential and raw strength. However, that wasn’t saving his ass in the above described scene. It was Palpatine’s encouragement. In a neutral arena, if this battle were allowed to proceed to the finish without external influence, Skywalker would have been defeated.
I, the thread creator, was unaware that this was ROTS Dooku vs. ROTS Anakin. If there had been no encouragement, yes Anakin would have lost. But that does not change that he would only have lost because he was holding back as Dooku clearly noted.
Can we say avoiding the point? Laughable. He interfered; it was this interference that caused Dooku’s taunts to be nullified. You still have not responded, how in an effectively neutral arena where “Palpatine” won’t be around to offer little old Ani moral support, Dooku would toy around with his feelings and ultimately kick his ass. “A simple taunt” made him lose his combat skill and "edge". Palpatine is not around to give him encouragement and nullify Dooku’s taunts and feints. You do the math.
It did drastically change the results of the match but this, AGAIN, is nto ROTS Dooku vs. ROTS Anakin. It’s Vader. Why do people insist on rambling off into arguments not even related to the topic...
Because of course, dealing with two duelists does not lead to a larger expenditure of energy than dealing with one singe duelist. Ever thought that through, Logic-Hound? He was tired out, he even mentions in the novelization that he was tiring from fighting two opponents at once.
And Dooku also revitalized himself. So, moot point. It clearly stated that, using The Force, he gained back his lost energy.
You’ll pardon me if I remain skeptical. The novelization states that he was enjoying the battle, toying with Anakin, taunting and suppressing his skills, before Palpatine betrayed him.
Again, the vicious dog analogy. The dog does not gain teeth or claws when the leash is removed. It simply gains the full use of them against its target. Palpatine unleashed Anakin and Anakin demolished Dooku.
The facts are these:
1. ROTS Anakin, trying to hold back the hatred and anger he feels is wrong, can not beat Dooku.
2. ROTS Anakin, unleashed, CAN beat Dooku.
3. This is ROTS Vader, now immersed in the dark side. Allbeit somewhat dumber.
That’s all that has to be said on the matter.
I agree with most of what you are saying Escape, but you are forgetting that all this happened after Sidious decided to interfere and sway the odds into Anakins favour.
As Zephiel has quoted, "Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene". And intervene he did. As soon as this happened the whole neutral setting and fair fight reasoning goes out the window. He took away the advantage that Dooku had gained through superior fighting tactics, and made Anakin the lethal, nearly unstoppable killing machine we all know and hate. Dooku, through superior fighting abilites, experience and skill had the match in the bag, and would have won had sidious kept his mouth shut.
This is how the match was described before Sidious spoke.
-Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily.
-[i]Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions
-Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again
As you can see Dooku is clearly wiping the floor with Anakin, and it is logical to assume that Dooku would have won the fight if the duel had kept going. Now this is how it is described after Sidiois interferes.
-Dooku was already dead. The rest was merely detail
-Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell
-even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step...
These all clearly indicate that Anakin was now in complete control of the fight. However, none of this would have happened if Sidious had kept his trap shut and left the duel to be played out accordingly (meaning no inteference). It is obvious that Dooku would have won if Sidious hadnt spoken and tipped the scales to Anakins favour.
However when I post all this I am not saying that Dooku is better than Anakin. Anakin, when angered, would whip the Count into next week. However im just saying that Dooku has the skill and experience to beat Anakin as of ROTS, if everything remained neutral.
Originally posted by Kadesh
ill give you the exact quote"Form VII demanded the emotional and physical intensity of Form V, but it much more effectively controlled it—if mastered. Form VII, when fully mastered, resulted in extraordinary power. "
According to Cestus Deception, Shii-Cho also demanded emotional strength to power it. Ataru is probably the most physically demanding, but does that mean that it gives off the same kinetic power as Djem So upon hitting another blade?
Originally posted by Council#13No, it stated vaapad needed the intensity of form V,
According to Cestus Deception, Shii-Cho also demanded emotional strength to power it. Ataru is probably the most physically demanding, but does that mean that it gives off the same kinetic power as Djem So upon hitting another blade?
Originally posted by Gideon
You make it seem as though Palpatine got up from the chair, pulled out his lightsaber, and attacked Count Dooku along with Anakin. He did not.
Bullshit. I never implied anything of that sort.
He encouraged Anakin to give into his raw power, whereas the Count was goading and tricking Anakin into losing the entire battle. He was suppressing Anakin through mindgames as an intelligent and fighter does. Anakin may be a better fighter when it comes down to simple “lets smash or sabers against one another” but in intelligent combat, (which is the Count’s forte) Anakin's emotional weakness gets him defeated.
Dooku thought blankly, Kill me?
He and Skywalker paused for one single, final instant, blades locked together, staring at each other past a sizzling cross of scarlet against blue, and in that instant Dooku found himself wondering in bewildered astonishment if Sidious had suddenly lost his mind. Didn't he understand the advice he'd just given? Whose side was he on, anyway?
If Sidious did not interfere with the Count’s mindgames, the count would have won. Clearly, Sidious took away Dooku’s advantage. Dooku even states “who’s side is he on?”
Need I remind you what happened then?
"Dooku was already dead. The rest is mere detail."
Pathetic. Need I remind you that before Sidious gave his advice, Dooku was mindgaming and defeating Anakin? Did you bother to read the passage that I initially posted up? Need I remind you to do that?
"Dooku was already dead. The rest is mere detail."
Oh my. You keep bringing this point up and keep avoiding the events preceding this, if only to make your so called "argument"stronger. Hilarious.
He got to that point because Palpatine interfered with Dooku's taunting. Get that point through your head. The author was even admitting that Anakin was losing if not for Palpatine interjecting with his comments, and encouraging Anakin to use his raw power.
Zephiel, and nothing that Count Dooku did throughout the entire course of the fight - even with Obi-Wan - came close to that amount of dominance.
Except for Dooku suppressing Anakin with his taunts and goading, thereby effectively winning the duel before Palpatine's interjection.
Again, I have read this passage. I know what happens after Palpatine gives his advice.
And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.
The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.
He becomes stronger and learns to use the darkside to defeat Dooku. However this was after Sidious’ interjection. Before then, without Sidious, Dooku was the one winning.
Keep avoiding the point. It's your only Escape.
I suppose you didn't read this, which came from Lucas himself, who is the highest authority.
I did read this. In fact I have read this many times. Do you mind not bringing this into your posts every time, because I can assure you, I have seen this before.
Aside from common logic, Zephiel (you seem to struggle with that), which indicates (quite plainly) that Sidious could not have had any accurate results from this "test" if he restrained Dooku and offered more support for Anakin - then how exactly would he determine which of the two is more powerful?
You must not be the brightest lightbulb here.... He was determining which of the two was stronger in "power”. It only takes a little bit of thinking to come to that conclusion. (which, woefully, you haven't). Feints, taunts, and psychological advantages are not taken into account. Otherwise, Sidious would have never interjected and Dooku would have won. Read the passage. Are you blind and …no enough. Just read the passage, and please, try and comprehend it.
Sadly, Faunus is incorrect.
Nonsense. From what I see, Faunus was basing his argument on the same evidence that I was. Dooku was not a consummate dueler only by virtue of “teh poWER ZOMG!!!!,” but by cunning and intelligence as well.
Lucas (again, the ultimate canon source):
[sarcasm]Oh dude, I never knew that![/sarcasm]
Right there. Anakin proves his strength to become the Emperor's new apprentice by killing the current one - meaning that Anakin's power surpassed Count Dooku's.
What is up with your reading comprehension? Did you lose your glases/contacts? I NEVER, EVER said that Dooku was superiour to Anakin in power.
Anakin’s primary character flaw (this is undisputed), is, despite possessing great strength in the force, he is for the most part, emotionally unstable. He is a loose canon. This very behavior of ROTS Anakin is what causes him to lose the fights he does. (Obi Wan in particular, whom in power, Anakin is the greater)
When he was battling Dooku, Dooku was captilizing on this character flaw like a consummate duelist would. He was not relying on power but intelligent combat/mindgames. It was ultimately these facets that gave him the upper hand and would have lead to his victory, if not for Palpatine foiling his mind games and returning the combat into a brute force battle. I am not saying Dooku is stronger in the substansive sense. It is called intelligent fighting. Get it?
If the battle continued without “Sidious’ advice” (according to the G canon novelization which of course Lucas authorized and encouraged as an elaboration to the script and films), the Count’s intelligent fighting would ultimately have triumphed over Anakin.
Unless, of course, the book actually states that Anakin acknowledged whats palps said, and acted upon it. As opposed to just getting pissed and butt-raping the count.
The book does say it. Here is the passage:
He and Skywalker paused for one single, final instant, blades locked together, staring at each other past a sizzling cross of scarlet against blue, and in that instant Dooku found himself wondering in bewildered astonishment if Sidious had suddenly lost his mind. Didn't he understand the advice he'd just given? Whose side was he on, anyway?
And through the cross of their blades he saw in Skywalker's eyes the promise of hell, and he felt a sickening presentiment that he already knew the answer to that question. Treachery is the way of the Sith.
Jedi Trap
This is the death of Count Dooku:
A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind
As we can see, Sidious’ words lead to a “starburst of clarity” that blossoms in Anakin’s mind, hence Dooku lost. Before this, Dooku was taunting and dominating Anakin through superiour tactics and mindgames.
[sarcasm] Since I apparently lack the reading comprehension and the very intellect to continue this debate with you, oh overlord of intellectuals, Zephiel, I consent.[/sarcasm]
You're right. Before Palpatine interjected with his bit of advice to Anakin, Dooku was going to win. He had the intellectual and psychological edge over Anakin. However (just so we're clear), Anakin's power (strength in the Force, skill) DID (!) surpass Count Dooku's. Lucas made that absolutely clear. The only reason that Dooku was winning was because of the psychological and mental edges that he had over an unstable young man.
So, if you're going to argue who would win (without Palpatine's invervention), it would have been Dooku. If you're arguing which one of them was more talented with a lightsaber or more powerful, then it would be Anakin.
Because, once Anakin got his "starburst of clarity" he WTFpwned/annihilated/obliterated/wiped out Count Dooku. It was no contest, and Dooku didn't have a ghost of a prayer to save him.
So. There you go. I consent.
Originally posted by Gideon
[sarcasm] Since I apparently lack the reading comprehension and the very intellect to continue this debate with you, oh overlord of intellectuals, Zephiel, I [B]consent.[/sarcasm]You're right. Before Palpatine interjected with his bit of advice to Anakin, Dooku was going to win. He had the intellectual and psychological edge over Anakin. However (just so we're clear), Anakin's power (strength in the Force, skill) DID (!) surpass Count Dooku's. Lucas made that absolutely clear. The only reason that Dooku was winning was because of the psychological and mental edges that he had over an unstable young man.
So, if you're going to argue who would win (without Palpatine's invervention), it would have been Dooku. If you're arguing which one of them was more talented with a lightsaber or more powerful, then it would be Anakin.
Because, once Anakin got his "starburst of clarity" he WTFpwned/annihilated/obliterated/wiped out Count Dooku. It was no contest, and Dooku didn't have a ghost of a prayer to save him.
So. There you go. I consent. [/B]
Good call. I agree with you on the point that Anakin is the superior fighter in a pure power duel. However, Faunus, Ox, and I, we collectively believe that Dooku's cunning and intelligence plays to his advantage in his duels against what we can agree on as an "unstable young man."
Let's have a martini.