Originally posted by Gideon
a single remark that did not make its way into the movie.
1) You use the narrator's observations, as well as descriptions of the battle and the characters - okay.
2) Then, you claim that a detail of the novelisation didn't make it into the movie, but the novelisation is still perfectly canon. So tell me this - what about the whole ****ing battle as described by the novel? What happened to Dooku pinning Anakin into a wall with a table? What happenedto the duo's terrific teamwork, feints, and combinations? What happened to Obi-Wan getting kicked down a flight of stairs instead of hurled through the air?
If there was a stronger word than nitpicking, I'd use it in a heartbeat, cuz this is the height of fallacy.
Originally posted by kamikz
Though if we are gonna put up a vs thread, Count Dooku vs Anakin Skywalker (ROTS), who will now prevail?
Dooku still considered it an easy challenge and knocked Obi-Wan out of the scene and decided to take on Anakin alone. But when dueling with Anakin began, Dooku suddenly realized his mistake but it was too late.
Dooku could defeat Anakin through his Force Powers (due to his superior knowledge of the force) but not in a saber duel. Anakin's Djem was very effective against Dooku's Makashi.
So in "Saber Dueling", Anakin wins. But in a "Force Contest", Dooku wins. Still it depends upon what scenario people use in a "versus" contest between these two warriors.
Originally posted by kamikz
Though if we are gonna put up a vs thread, Count Dooku vs Anakin Skywalker (ROTS), who will now prevail?
It depends. According to Lucas, Anakin is the more powerful combatant. But, Zephiel is indeed very much correct. Dooku had the psychological domination of the fight. However, to underline this, it is the only reason that he held his own throughout the fight.
Should Anakin have the same "state-of-mind" that he had against Dooku on Invisible Hand - or even, the same state-of-mind that he had when he discovered Palpatine's identity as Darth Sidious - he would likely crush Count Dooku in a lightsaber duel. Dooku doesn't have a ghost of a chance in that category.
Should Anakin not realize this, then, Zephiel is likely correct - Dooku would win.
Now, Darth Vader vs. Dooku (which is what this thread is) would likely turn out differently. Anakin beat Dooku by tapping into the dark side. RotS Vader is fully immersed in it. Now, one may argue that he was unable to defeat Obi-Wan, but that is due to Obi-Wan's defensive skills as a fighter and his intimate knowledge of Anakin and his tactics.
By going off of that, I'd say that RotS Vader will have no trouble with Dooku in a lightsaber fight. Dooku's only chance is to attack him with the Force.
Now, one may argue that he was unable to defeat Obi-Wan, but that is due to and his intimate knowledge of Anakin
I would disagree with you here. Obi Wan knew much of Anakin’s fighting style, but you also have take into account the converse, that Anakin also knew a lot about Obi Wan’s style of fighting.
Here is a passage from the ROTS novelization.
After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.
This factor nullifies itself out, due to both of them knowing each other’s moves intimately.
Obi-Wan's defensive skills as a fighter
Well I don’t see this as much of a reason for Obi Wan’s victory. This would imply that defensive forms of dueling are better than offensive forms of dueling…which is not true.
The only reason I see Obi Wan winning, is because despite Anakin being “immersed in the dark side”, he possesses a psychological disadvantage, whereas Kenobi was a fountain of calm. This contrasts with the version of Anakin, whom with Sidious’ assistance, could see things with “clarity.” This Anakin is the exception though, not the rule. It does not make sense to assume that this Anakin is what we mean by when we say "ROTS" Anakin.
From what I see in the movie and the books, Anakin has great power, but hasn’t yet learned to emotionally control his fury. This gives his opponents the psychological advantage that they always use to take him down.
I would disagree with you here. Obi Wan knew much of Anakin’s fighting style, but you also have take into account the converse, that Anakin also knew a lot about Obi Wan’s style of fighting.Here is a passage from the ROTS novelization.
After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.This factor nullifies itself out, due to both of them knowing each other’s moves intimately.
That is true. But, against Obi-Wan, Vader did not use much technique. His hatred now surpassed anything - so he essentially just threw himself at Obi-Wan, slashing and attacking.
It was Obi-Wan's clear thinking, unparalleled defense, and his knowledge of Anakin that kept him alive.
Though Dooku is a better swordsman than Obi-Wan, his defense is not as skilled, and there's no way in hell he can handle Anakin's strength like that. Anakin'd break him in half, Zephiel.
Well I don’t see this as much of a reason for Obi Wan’s victory. This would imply that defensive forms of dueling are better than offensive forms of dueling…which is not true.The only reason I see Obi Wan winning, is because despite Anakin being “immersed in the dark side”, he possesses a psychological disadvantage, whereas Kenobi was a fountain of calm. This contrasts with the version of Anakin, whom with Sidious’ assistance, could see things with “clarity.” This Anakin is the exception though, not the rule. It does not make sense to assume that this Anakin is what we mean by when we say "ROTS" Anakin.
From what I see in the movie and the books, Anakin has great power, but hasn’t yet learned to emotionally control his fury. This gives his opponents the psychological advantage that they always use to take him down.
Offensive forms aren't better than defensive forms, either. They've both got the obvious advantages.
That is true. But, against Obi-Wan, Vader did not use much technique.
Firstly I would argue with how you imply that Anakin was not using the knowledge he had against Obi Wan in the duel.
They were both described as "complementary halves of one warrior," and "knowing each others style intimately," within context of the actual fight. The author was implying that they both knew each others forms well, and it was difficult for either of them to break through the other.
His hatred now surpassed anything - so he essentially just threw himself at Obi-Wan, slashing and attacking.
I have looked through the the passage detailing the fight and I haven't seen the author state anything indicating that Anakin's loss of the battle was due to the effects of an emotional state that was an exception to how he would normally behave.
It seems that this is how Anakin would fight in an arena, 9/10. Recklessly. With great power and skill, true, but susceptible to taunts and trickery. The exception would seem to be after Palpatine's advice when Anakin managed to keep his calm and fight with precision and skill, compounded with his fury. But again, this is inferred to be the exception.
Though Dooku is a better swordsman than Obi-Wan, his defense is not as skilled
Given that the general rule with Anakin is that he is susceptible to trickery, cunning, and psychological attacks made by the enemy, I don't think Dooku needs a strong defense. Makashi heavily relies on feints and taunts; it is general knowledge. Dooku uses them excessively. He can lure Anakin into a comprimising position even more easily than Kenobi did in their duel in ROTS. That's why I feel that as of ROTS, Tyrannus is the victor most of the time (not necessarily that he has greater saber skills than Anakin)
Firstly I would argue with how you imply that Anakin was not using the knowledge he had against Obi Wan in the duel.They were both described as "complementary halves of one warrior," and "knowing each others style intimately," within context of the actual fight. The author was implying that they both knew each others forms well, and it was difficult for either of them to break through the other.
I find that interesting, Zephiel. Because if Anakin had the mentality to use his knowledge against Obi-Wan, even when he was in the middle of a psychotic rage - then I could see him taking Dooku out.
I have looked through the the passage detailing the fight and I haven't seen the author state anything indicating that Anakin's loss of the battle was due to the effects of an emotional state that was an exception to how he would normally behave.
Well, then there you have it. If he didn't lose the mentality he had before he fell, then he could take Count Dooku. It seems that Palpatine's advice to Anakin aboard the Invisible Hand battle stuck with him.
Palpatine: "Are you going to kill me?"
Anakin: "I would certainly like to."
Palpatine: "Oh... I know you would. I can feel your anger... it gives you focus, makes you stronger."
That was before he fell.
It seems that this is how Anakin would fight in an arena, 9/10. Recklessly. With great power and skill, true, but susceptible to taunts and trickery. The exception would seem to be after Palpatine's advice when Anakin managed to keep his calm and fight with precision and skill, compounded with his fury. But again, this is inferred to be the exception.
It is no longer an exception after the fight, as according to the script - and you, when he fell as Vader - he kept the identical mentality. It seems that Sidious's advice stayed with him.
Given that the general rule with Anakin is that he is susceptible to trickery, cunning, and psychological attacks made by the enemy, I don't think Dooku needs a strong defense. Makashi heavily relies on feints and taunts; it is general knowledge. Dooku uses them excessively. He can lure Anakin into a comprimising position even more easily than Kenobi did in their duel in ROTS. That's why I feel that as of ROTS, Tyrannus is the victor most of the time (not necessarily that he has greater saber skills than Anakin)
Anakin's skills are superior to Tyranus. And, as you said, he kept the same mentality.
If that is the case, then he can grind Dooku beneath his heel in a fight.
Taken from Dark Lord: the Rise of Darth Vader, page 123
Vader's eyes searched Sidious's face. "[I]Did you promise as much to Count Dooku?"
Sidious bared his teeth, but only briefly. "Darth Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. If he had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be at my right hand."[/I]
That seems to bring perspective on the fight. According to Sidious, not only did Dooku know what he risked in dueling Anakin, but Sidious also attributes his defeat as a lack of strength in the dark side in comparison to Vader - and if Dooku had truly been more powerful and stronger in the dark side - he would be in Vader's place as Sith pupil and second most powerful man in the galaxy.
Originally posted by Council#13
In the ROTS Novelization, Sidious tells Dooku that in the unlikely event that Anakin defeats him, Sidious/Palpatine will interfer to save Dooku's life.
That's right. But he lied. Dooku knew what he risked as far as defeat. Sidious also told him that this was a test for Skywalker. What Sidious didn't tell Dooku was that this was a test for Dooku too.
Originally posted by Council#13
We know he lied, as we saw him get killed in the movie. My point is that Sidious was lying to Anakin about Dooku. Dooku understood what may happen should he lose to Anakin, but he thought he would survive.
If that is your point, then you've made it. But I am curious. Is this point of yours supposed to diminish the quote I provided, or are you simply trying to elaborate on it?
Isn't it true that anything in the book, that directly contradicts the movie is not canon, correct? Well, in that fight, Palpatine said nothing, and hardly showed Dooku owning Anakin. And if you want to bring up the kick...one kick is hardly owning someone. If the novel gives us insight to the characters inner thoughts, thats one thing, "All he had to do was decide.", but if it says that a character said something that was not said in the movie, then it wasn't said. And wasn't it Fannus himself who said the novel wasn't a canon source?
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Isn't it true that anything in the book, that directly contradicts the movie is not canon, correct? Well, in that fight, Palpatine said nothing, and hardly showed Dooku owning Anakin. And if you want to bring up the kick...one kick is hardly owning someone. If the novel gives us insight to the characters inner thoughts, thats one thing, "All he had to do was decide.", but if it says that a character said something that was not said in the movie, then it wasn't said. And wasn't it Fannus himself who said the novel wasn't a canon source?
You have a point. The novelization is canon - as long as it does not contradict the movies. According to Zephiel, the novelization merely expands upon what we see in the movies and adds more detail, and yes, Faunus accused me of "nitpicking".
If we accept this as the case, then I suppose Sidious > Yoda by quite a bit, instead of the two being deemed as equals.