Living Tribunal vs. Spectre

As I thought, you're basing your theory on what's represented in the Spectre respect thread.
The truth however differ from what's written there.

As you know he merged with the Source, and the Source is only an aspect of God--hence he did only became a part of God.

The part he became however is only an aspect of be God, and the Spectre couldn't stand to be just an aspect of "God".

It's stated that he merges with the Source here.

Unless you claim that the Source is the Presence in all his glory.

Basing my "theory" on what's represented in the Spectre respect thread ? No, I base my theory on the actual comic which I've read.

Stated that he merges with the Source ? Not it doesn't, it's only stated that he enters the source. I've already proven with two statements that he became God.

Really, stop grasping at straws. It's getting pathetic.

That the Living Tribunal is the begining and the end of everything in all creation.

Too bad Creation had already ended and restarted inside of Spectre.

Again, are you trying to say that the Source is the Presence?

When exactly did I say that ?

The Supreme being, yes, but I cannot say the same for YHWH or the Presence (of Vertigo) considering how he in Lucifer #70 stated that he himself was not supreme.

Actually that's from Lucifer #75 but considering you haven't actually read the series I'm not surprised.

Now does the Presence state that the forces that shaped him are supreme to him ? No.

Does he even mention who those forces are ? No.

Your argument ? Nullified.

Then again, I could explain to you what those forces are but I'm not going to bother.

You're violating the rules of the forum, and I think you are aware of it, not to mention doing it on purpose.

🙄

Originally posted by Utrigita
Isn't he referring to the writers??? that was my immediate thought when I saw the scan.

But then again, all he did was creating Multiverses. The Living Tribunal's feats and statements dwarfs his.

Well so does LT....

Does what ? Equal God ? Creations are destroyed and reborn inside of him?

LT isn't stronger then God but is Spectre stronger then the Presence the supreme being of DC, ore is Spectre just as strong as the Presence wishes the Spectre to be...

In the specific instance where he enters the Source, he is as strong as God since he practically becomes him.

Other than that yes, he is pretty much as strong as the Presence wants him to be.

Well to me, yes, since my knowlegde of DC is very little if not none existing. I entered this thread to learn more about the Spectre since a Respect thread is one thing debating the Character is a entirely different situation.

Feel free to ask me if you want, I have every post-Crisis Spectre appearence and read it.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Isn't he referring to the writers??? that was my immediate thought when I saw the scan.

No. If you want I can tell you who he reffers to based on evidence in PM.

Originally posted by Astner
It was the end of the series so you cannot say, it wasn't explained.
It could as well have been a fictional being.

The chances of that would IMO be very low.

But then again, all he did was creating Multiverses. The Living Tribunal's feats and statements dwarfs his. [/B]

True but The Presence is still supreme over the area, and in theory it wouldn't matter if a Being is capable of destroying a universe in a comic book if that's all of reality in that comic and a Multiverse destroyed by a character in another comic book. It is still all existance in the respected Comics that is destroyed. Then we could start with size and so forth but it is still all of existance thats destroyed.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
No. If you want I can tell you who he reffers to based on evidence in PM.

okay please do.

LT has stated that he could be All if he wanted to, but must be apart.

LT has overpowered the IG, the IG makes one god beneath THOTI in the Omniverse.

LT manipulated the Starbrand with a gesture (a Multiversal source of power)

LT manipulated/fashioned Two MegaverseS in one hand.
(each Megaverse is a collection of Infinite MultiverseS)

LT was going to replace the 616 Universe with the Ultimate Universe,
perhaps his greatest feat,
since this would require the complete re-configuration of All of Marvel.

LT is the Heart of all things in Marvel,
everything (as in ALL Creation/Reality/Existence) reveberates through him.
...................................................................................

Who wins?

who ... since it can never be proven one way or another.

Marvel is not DC, and DC is not Marvel. 🙂

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Does what ? Equal God ? Creations are destroyed and reborn inside of him?

Well yes since LT is the nexus of Alpha and Omega and so forth then I would say Yes that Creation are destroyed and reborn in some fashion inside of him.

In the specific instance where he enters the Source, he is as strong as God since he practically becomes him.

Other than that yes, he is pretty much as strong as the Presence wants him to be. [/B]

Isn't that a bit of a paradox, he becomes as strong as God but God still decides how strong he will be...

Feel free to ask me if you want, I have every post-Crisis Spectre appearence and read it. [/B]

Thanks 😄 appreciate it.

Originally posted by Utrigita
okay please do.

Okay.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Basing my "theory" on what's represented in the Spectre respect thread ? No, I base my theory on the actual comic which I've read.

Stated that he merges with the Source ? Not it doesn't, it's only stated that he enters the source. I've already proven with two statements that he became God.

He became one with the Source.

Really, stop grasping at straws. It's getting pathetic.

Too bad Creation had already ended and restarted inside of Spectre.

When exactly did I say that?

Actually that's from Lucifer #75 but considering you haven't actually read the series I'm not surprised.

Now does the Presence state that the forces that shaped him are supreme to him ? No.

Does he even mention who those forces are ? No.

Then again, I could explain to you what those forces are but I'm not going to bother.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Marvel is not DC, and DC is not Marvel. 🙂

Which makes discussing high level Character difficult IMO.

Because destroying a Megaverse in Marvel would mean from what I have understood that you could basically destroy all of DC since it is only a multiverse(s).

Originally posted by Utrigita
Which makes discussing high level Character difficult IMO.

Because destroying a Megaverse in Marvel would mean from what I have understood that you could basically destroy all of DC since it is only a multiverse(s).

Precisely.

This is why cross-company battles concerning Cosmics atleast,
should be pointless.

Well yes since LT is the nexus of Alpha and Omega and so forth then I would say Yes that Creation are destroyed and reborn in some fashion inside of him.

There's a difference between what Living Tribunal and Spectre are in comparison with 'creations' in this 2 instances. Spectre contains everything while Living Tribunal is it's 'heart', juding from the beginning of creation to its end.

And from this :

It's obvious that the Living Tribunal came in existence with the creation of the Multiverse, which means he has no involvement in the creation preceding the current one, thus his role extents through only the current creation while in Spectre's case creations were ending and begining inside of him.

Isn't that a bit of a paradox, he becomes as strong as God but God still decides how strong he will be...

It is 🙂

Then why is your arguement flawed?

It isn't.

merge (mûrj)
v. merged, merg·ing, merg·es
v.tr.
1. To cause to be absorbed, especially in gradual stages.
2. To combine or unite: merging two sets of data.

He became one with the Source.

Actually he became one with God, which it's stated.

It isn't stated that he became one with the Source.

These kind of unnecessary should get you banned.

So me pointing out that it's pathetic seeing you grasping at straws, which you are, is bannable ?

Your point being, the Presence exsists outside creation.

You don't even remember your own arguments? You said that the Living Tribunal was the master of all creation, while I countered it with the fact that when Spectre merged he creation ended and restarted inside of him.

Nice try to avoid the subject though.

He merges with the Source and became an aspect of the Presence.
You say that he merged with the Source and became the Presence.

He never merged with the Source. It is never stated nor even hinted. He merged with God, which is stated.

I've read it, I just don't have the comic in front of my computer.
Hence I made a mistake and refered to the first comic in the Eversong instead of the last.

This is pretty hard to confuse, especially since it's the last issue of the series and the one where Lucifer finally has an ultimate discussion with his father.

Obviously pointing that you haven't read it.

Yes he does, read it again.
A force even external to him, not to mention that it shaped the Presence, it made the Presence.

Where does it state those forces are superior to him ?

He do mention that they exist, hence they do.

Does it mention that they exist at the present tense ? Where exactly ? It doesn't say "they are shaping me" it says "I was shaped"

No you can't. You said it yourself.

Actually I can, but I'm not going to waste my time on you.

Seriously, I'm stopping this discussion. It's pointless because you don't really have a clue about you are talking about.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Precisely.

This is why cross-company battles concerning Cosmics atleast,
should be pointless.

👆

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
There's a difference between what Living Tribunal and Spectre are in comparison with 'creations' in this 2 instances. Spectre contains everything while Living Tribunal is it's 'heart', juding from the beginning of creation to its end.

No difference whatsoever.

LT is not just the Omniverse's Heart,
LT is it's Judge,
LT is the Pulse of Creation itself,
LT is the Finger the Destiny of ALPHA & OMEGA spins on.

Alpha/Omega = Beginning and End.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
And from this :

It's obvious that the Living Tribunal came in existence with the creation of the Multiverse, which means he has no involvement in the creation preceding the current one,

thus his role extents through only the current creation while in Spectre's case creations were ending and begining inside of him.

Neither does Spectre.

Creations were beginning and ending inside him,
after the initial DC Reality was created many, many years ago, Not before.

Unless you're saying that Spectre was created before DC.
.....................................................................................

The LT controls all of Marvel (the Omniverse)
all of Marvel reverberates through him,
the Heart of Marvel is the LT.
.....................................................................................

Meh,

if the Alien Entity can fold back the Omniverse to the point before the First Big Bang,
and then Re-Create the Omniverse from said point,

I'm sure for the LT that would be a walk in the park.

.....................................................................................

But really, this is a no win situation,

because we're dealing with Cross-comapny Cosmic contradictions.

Originally posted by Mr Master
No difference whatsoever.

LT is not just the Omniverse's Heart,
LT is it's Judge,
LT is the Pulse of Creation its self,
LT is the Finger the Destiny of ALPHA & OMEGA spins on.

Alpha/Omega = Beginning and End.

Neither does Spectre.

Creations were beginning and ending inside him,
after the initial DC Reality was created many, many years ago, Not before.

Unless you're saying that Spectre was created before DC.
.....................................................................................

The LT controls all of Marvel (the Omniverse)
all of Marvel reverberates through him,
the Heart of Marvel is the LT.
.....................................................................................

Meh,

if the Alien Entity can fold back the Omniverse to the point before the First Big Bang,
and then Re-Create the Omniverse from said point,

I'm sure for the LT that would be a walk in the park.

.....................................................................................

But really, this is a no win situation,

because we're dealing with Cross-comapny Cosmic contradictions.

Then why couldn't the LT fix the universal flaw in the end? He's so powerful and yet can't erase a universe and or fix it? WTF.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
There's a difference between what Living Tribunal and Spectre are in comparison with 'creations' in this 2 instances. Spectre contains everything while Living Tribunal is it's 'heart', juding from the beginning of creation to its end.

And from this :

It's obvious that the Living Tribunal came in existence with the creation of the Multiverse, which means he has no involvement in the creation preceding the current one, thus his role extents through only the current creation while in Spectre's case creations were ending and begining inside of him.

Yes but Spectre also came into beginning with the creation of DC, the difference is that he feels the beginning of creation and the destruction of it. LT feels the same he is the alpha and Omega all through out marvels omniverse realities dies and are reborn so it would be logical to assume that he also feels the beginning and ending inside of him, just in another way, and it wasn't physically (seen on panel) that Creation was beginning and ending around him, what be became was a being like LT IMO. (this is a bit clumsy written just say so if you want me to write it more properly)

It is 🙂 [/B]

thought so.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Then why couldn't the LT fix the universal flaw in the end? He's so powerful and yet can't erase a universe and or fix it? WTF.

Because the power of TOAA was required to fix the flaw nothing less would do even LT with all his power couldn't accomplishe that feat hell Thanos with the heart couldn't fix it either and Thanos with Hearth of the universe > LT, IMO it was all masterminded from TOAA.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Because the power of TOAA was required to fix the flaw, IMO it was all masterminded from TOAA.

Well, Why couldn't the TOAA just give the power to the LT? And why was it stated that not even the TOAA could fix the flaw. Bad writing if you ask me.