Living Tribunal vs. Spectre

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr It isn't.

Actually he became one with God, which it's stated.

It isn't stated that he became one with the Source.

So me pointing out that it's pathetic seeing you grasping at straws, which you are, is bannable ?

You don't even remember your own arguments? You said that the Living Tribunal was the master of all creation, while I countered it with the fact that when Spectre merged he creation ended and restarted inside of him.

Nice try to avoid the subject though.

He never merged with the Source. It is never stated nor even hinted. He merged with God, which is stated.

This is pretty hard to confuse, especially since it's the last issue of the series and the one where Lucifer finally has an ultimate discussion with his father.

Obviously pointing that you haven't read it.

Where does it state those forces are superior to him ?

He was shaped by forces external to him, if they can create the Presence, they should by all means be able to create more.
Unless you say that the Presence can create beings more powerful than himself.

Does it mention that they exist at the present tense ? Where exactly ? It doesn't say "they are shaping me" it says "I was shaped"

Actually I can, but I'm not going to waste my time on you.

Seriously, I'm stopping this discussion. It's pointless because you don't really have a clue about you are talking about.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Well, Why couldn't the TOAA just give the power to the LT? And why was it stated that not even the TOAA could fix the flaw. Bad writing if you ask me.

because simply thats not the way it work LT has been given a maximum to his power and he cannot go beyond that powerlevel he isn't allowed to by TOAA. TOAA could fix the flaw but it would required something that I don't think TOAA was willing to do the destruction of his entire creation, it was far easier to have Thanos doing it for him, Thanos that wouldn't have a problem with destroying Reality.

And nvr I have absolutely no idea if this is correct I'm just speculating.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Then why couldn't the LT fix the universal flaw in the end?

Come on Nvr, why do so many strange things happen in comics?

To make a story continue.

I could bring up senseless limitations on any character, in DC or Marvel.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
He's so powerful and yet can't erase a universe and or fix it? WTF.

If LT would've been allowed to fix the flaw,

then the entire story concerning Thanos/THOTI/The End, would've been for naught.
..................................................................................

The "Flaw" was written to be unfixable by anyone (including THOTI)

The "Flaw" was a matter of awareness exclusively for Toaa/god's power,
this is why the LT and anyone beneath didn't even know about the "Flaw"

It was a matter that was only to be handled by THOTI (god's power)

That's how the story was written.

Sorta like how,

Batman can kick Spectre away,
how Mxy defeats effortlessly a backed Spectre,
how amped CM defeats Spectre,
and many other ridiculous showings.

(My fingers hurt)

No difference whatsoever.

LT is not just the Omniverse's Heart,
LT is it's Judge,
LT is the Pulse of Creation its self,
LT is the Finger the Destiny of ALPHA & OMEGA spins on.

Alpha/Omega = Beginning and End.

Living Tribunal doesn't contain creation inside of him, like Spectre is. Spectre was every being in creation.

There's a difference.

Neither does Spectre.

Creations were beginning and ending inside him,
after the initial DC Reality was created many, many years ago, Not before.

Unless you're saying that Spectre was created before DC.
.....................................................................................

The LT controls all of Marvel (the Omniverse)
all of Marvel reverberates through him,
the Heart of Marvel is the LT.
.....................................................................................

Meh,

if the Alien Entity can fold back the Omniverse to the point before the First Big Bang.
and then Re-Create the Omniverse from said point,

I'm sure for the LT that would be a walk in the park.

My point was that Living Tribunal apparently is the judge over creation while creations are actually ending and beginning inside of Spectre.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Well, Why couldn't the TOAA just give the power to the LT? And why was it stated that not even the TOAA could fix the flaw. Bad writing if you ask me.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Come on Nvr, why do so many strange things happen in comics?

To make a story continue.

I could bring up senseless limitations on any character, in DC or Marvel.

If LT would've been allowed to fix the flaw,

then the entire story concerning Thanos/THOTI/The End, would've been for naught.
..................................................................................

The "Flaw" was written to be unfixable by anyone (including THOTI)

The "Flaw" was a matter of awareness exclusively for Toaa/god's power,
this is why the LT and anyone beneath didn't even know about the "Flaw"

It was a matter that was only to be handled by THOTI (god's power)

That's how the story was written.

Sorta like how,

Batman can kick Spectre away,
how Mxy defeats effortlessly a backed Spectre,
how amped CM defeats Spectre,
and many other ridiculous showings.

Of course I know these things. But people seem to forget what is rediculous when it comes to thier favorite companies in relation to another company.

As for mxy's power,it has been on par with Spectre a few times. So I dont' count that as all the way rediculous. He was even shown as a peer of spectre when they went around fixing the cosmos.

Yes but Spectre also came into beginning with the creation of DC, the difference is that he feels the beginning of creation and the destruction of it. LT feels the same he is the alpha and Omega all through out marvels omniverse realities dies and are reborn so it would be logical to assume that he also feels the beginning and ending inside of him, just in another way, and it wasn't physically (seen on panel) that Creation was beginning and ending around him, what be became was a being like LT IMO. (this is a bit clumsy written just say so if you want me to write it more properly)

LT hasn't been shown that he is the alpha and omega of more than one creation while Spectre was shown to have a creation inside of him ending and afterwards another one beginning. That was my point. This is why LT is in existence since the Multiverse and not before it or never stated to be after it while God, which Spectre became, is eternal.

As for the discussion with this other Astner guy, I'm not really going to continue because like I said, it's pointless. Anybody who reads my points can make a view and if there's something he doesn't understand feel free to PM me.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
LT hasn't been shown that he is the alpha and omega of more than one creation while Spectre was shown to have a creation inside of him ending and afterwards another one beginning. That was my point. This is why LT is in existence since the Multiverse and not before it or never stated to be after it while God, which Spectre became, is eternal.

We know that the LT isn't the alpha that is for sure. He discovers things to much and doesn't always know the answer to things. Someone who witnessed creation from the beginning would know everything. Like if he could beat the IG or not, that there was a ultimate universe, ect. Both of these guys are jobbers.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Living Tribunal doesn't contain creation inside of him, like Spectre is. Spectre was every being in creation.

There's a difference.

But Erik,
I don't think having all creation inside you is such a big deal.

As we speak the Alien Entity is all of creation in Marvel,
in fact,
the Alien Entity recreated the entire Marvel Universe with a spark contained within him,
from the Void Before the First Big Bang.
.....................................................................................

The Brothers, contain entire MultiverseS within themselves.
.....................................................................................

Eternity contains all of creation in the Prime infinite Multiverse within him.
.....................................................................................

Nth Man contains another separate Multiverse within himself.
.....................................................................................

LT is above all these cats, in status and power.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
My point was that Living Tribunal apparently is the judge over creation while creation[b]s are actually ending and beginning inside of Spectre. [/B]

LT is more than just creation's Judge.

LT is the Heart of Marvel.
All Creation reverberates through him.
Alpha & Omega's (beginning & end of everything) Destiny spins in his hand.

And once again, LT sated he could be everything in the Marvel:

"I, who could be ALL, must be but a part, I must be apart"

We'll continue this discussion in a few hours because I have to leave. 🙂

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
We know that the LT isn't the alpha that is for sure.
He discovers things to much and doesn't always know the answer to things.

The destiny of Alpha & Omega spins in the LT's hand.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Someone who witnessed creation from the beginning would know everything.

In Marvel,
not even Toaa/god knows everything.

Because in Marvel Toaa/god is based on real human beings,
and like real human beings he doesn't know what's coming next until he creates it.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Like if he could beat the IG or not,

LT always knew.

There was a misconception at one point that lead many of us to believe the LT wasn't sure,
we later figured out the LT was commenting on his authority over the IG,
not his power.

Because the IG grants one Supremacy over Reality,
and even LT can't go around interfering with the natural course of things.

ie. LT couln't interfere in the Abraxas arc,
although Abraxas was collapsing the same Multiverse LT protects,

Why?

Because Abraxas is a Concept, and as such forfills a duty appointed to him by Toaa/god.
That duty being his purpose to exist.

Remember, the LT operates completely on protocol,
if his Three faces do not agree, he can not act.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
LT hasn't been shown that he is the alpha and omega of more than one creation while Spectre was shown to have a creation inside of him ending and afterwards another one beginning. That was my point. This is why LT is in existence since the Multiverse and not before it or never stated to be after it while God, which Spectre became, is eternal.

Actually he showed that he was the creation of two megaverses and (here the stupid assumption comes again) DC isn't more then a Megaverse is it yet I doesn't make the assesment LT>Presence, because he can create a bigger reality. Also we doesn't know what the Creation was it could have been the birth of a human and the death of one and it could have been a multiverse being born and then beinging destroyed fact is that he feels the creation and so forth just like LT does as the scan showed previously.

Basically before the current Marvel the IB existed a being that was everything.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
We know that the LT isn't the alpha that is for sure. He discovers things to much and doesn't always know the answer to things. Someone who witnessed creation from the beginning would know everything. Like if he could beat the IG or not, that there was a ultimate universe, ect. Both of these guys are jobbers.

Which is completely and utterly PIS and CIS in a nice combination els there wouldn't be a interesting Comic now would there. Also to my knowlegde LT is Omniscient so he practically knows everything there is to know past present and future, unless the being is above him (Thanos W/HOTU)

Originally posted by Utrigita
Actually he showed that he was the creation of two megaverses and (here the stupid assumption comes again) DC isn't more then a Megaverse is it yet I doesn't make the assesment LT>Presence, because he can create a bigger reality. Also we doesn't know what the Creation was it could have been the birth of a human and the death of one and it could have been a multiverse being born and then beinging destroyed fact is that he feels the creation and so forth just like LT does as the scan showed previously.

Basically before the current Marvel the IB existed a being that was everything.

Nah. DC is far more than a megaverse. Omniverse was used in the JLA wildcats. Vertigo still exist, And then there is the creation that lucifer witnessed. a sea of overlapping verses.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The destiny of Alpha & Omega spins in the LT's hand.

In Marvel,
not even Toaa/god knows everything.

Because in Marvel Toaa/god is based on real human beings,
and like real human beings he doesn't know what's coming next until he creates it.

LT always knew.

There was a misconception at one point that lead many of us to believe the LT wasn't sure,
we later figured out the LT was commenting on his authority over the IG,
not his power.

Because the IG grants one Supremacy over Reality,
and even LT can't go around interfering with the natural course of things.

ie. LT couln't interfere in the Abraxas arc,
although Abraxas was collapsing the same Multiverse LT protects,

Why?

Because Abraxas is a Concept, and as such forfills a duty appointed to him by Toaa/god.
That duty being his purpose to exist.

Remember, the LT operates completely on protocol,
if his Three faces do not agree, he can not act.

I have a question...who is this we that you have stated that determined the LT and the IG issue?

Originally posted by starlock
I have a question...who is this we that you have stated that determined the LT and the IG issue?

A long time ago in a thread I believe it was Actually GS Galan and Mr M that reached that conclusion but not sure in any way ore if they just shouted 😉

Originally posted by Utrigita
A long time ago in a thread I believe it was Actually GS Galan and Mr M that reached that conclusion but not sure in any way ore if they just shouted 😉

Well i would love to see the new evidence provided by marvel, in the form of a comic or handbook, i am not to keen on taking the word of a couple of posters 😎

Originally posted by starlock
Well i would love to see the new evidence provided by marvel,

in the form of a comic or handbook,

i am not to keen on taking the word of a couple of posters

Rune (of the Ultraverse Universe located in another Multiverse)

gets the IG,

and with the help of the Soul gem is setting to conquer both the Ultraverse Multiverse,
and the Prime Multiverse:

.................................................................................................

LT finds out about this, but can not act:

"There is a disturbance in the Fabric of Reality,
which centers around the Infinity Gems,
Yet, it is UNLIKE Anything that I have Experienced,
the NATURE of the disturbance is Beyond this Reality,

..... I must ask HIM for Help" (LT has to actually get outside help to interfere indirectly)
.................................................................................................

And here's the "Help" the LT called for:

That's right ... the Silver Surfer:

.................................................................................................

To be fair, the Soul Gem was trying to control Rune for dominance of the IG,
this lead to Rune's quick defeat.

.................................................................................................

Anyhow,

Here's the PROOF,
that the LT didn't act against the IG because he didn't have the authority
over that particular circumstance:

"I have plucked you from the Frozen Time Stream
to PREVENT this creature from defying my decree,
that the Gems NEVER be used as One"
.................................................................................................

Surfer says,

"I know it is IN your Power to STOP this creature, so I suggest you do so yourself"

LT says,

"For this Self to ACT, ALL Three faces MUST AGREE ...
the Choice is yours, Surfer,
but the JUDGEMENT, as ALWAYS, is MINE"
.................................................................................................

Same thing in the Warlock case,
LT had to first follow protocol and make a decision,
"Did he have the power" (authority in this particular circumstance)

We know he couldn't have been referencing the IG's actual power output,
LT had already Resisted, Shunted, and Nullified a raging Warlock attack:

.................................................................................................

Besides the fact that the LT's bio clearly states the LT is more powerful than the IG:

Originally posted by Mr Master
Rune (of the Ultraverse Universe located in another Multiverse)

gets the IG,

and with the help of the Soul gem is setting to conquer both the Ultraverse Multiverse,
and the Prime Multiverse:

.................................................................................................

LT finds out about this, but can not act:

"There is a disturbance in the Fabric of Reality,
which centers around the Infinity Gems,
Yet, it is UNLIKE Anything that I have Experienced,
the NATURE of the disturbance is Beyond this Reality,

..... I must ask HIM for Help" (LT has to actually get outside help to interfere indirectly)
.................................................................................................

And here's the "Help" the LT called for:

That's right ... the Silver Surfer:

.................................................................................................

To be fair, the Soul Gem was trying to control Rune for dominance of the IG,
this lead to Rune's quick defeat.

.................................................................................................

Anyhow,

Here's the PROOF,
that the LT didn't act against the IG because he didn't have the authority
over that particular circumstance:

"I have plucked you from the Frozen Time Stream
to PREVENT this creature from defying my decree,
that the Gems NEVER be used as One"
.................................................................................................

[B]Surfer says,

"I know it is IN your Power to STOP this creature, so I suggest you do so yourself"

LT says,

"For this Self to ACT, ALL Three faces MUST AGREE ...
the Choice is yours, Surfer,
but the JUDGEMENT, as ALWAYS, is MINE"
.................................................................................................

Same thing in the Warlock case,
LT had to first follow protocol and make a decision,
"Did he have the power" (authority in this particular circumstance)

We know he couldn't have been referencing the IG's actual power output,
LT had already Resisted, Shunted, and Nullified a raging Warlock attack:

.................................................................................................

Besides the fact that the LT's bio clearly states the LT is more powerful than the IG:

[/B]

i am not in agreement, and i dont see definetive proof, i will just say i disagree and be done with it, this conclusion is based on opinon and certain points of view which i dont see as valid