Sidious/Tyranus/Vader vs. Revan, Malak and Traya

Nikkolas, tNEC is written by an author inside the SW universe, and is thus fallible, and should never be used as the sole source for any point. Sure, credit can be given to events that are detailed inside the guide (though even this can be argued), however the opinion of a historian inside the SW universe (because that's all it is, a deduction based off of what the historian knows)) should never be used, ever.

Kamikz, The ROTS novel shouldn't be counted as canon, too many contradictory elements, and there's also the fact that it's based off of an early script for the movie, not the final draft. And even then, I'm pretty sure there's nothing about Palpatine being the strongest sith ever.

Lightsnake, what exactly has Palpatine done by ROTS? He only really gets truly powerful afterwards.

Originally posted by Dessel
Why not? He's displayed far more than any of these people. He'd be able to take any of them alone, adding Traya and Malak is overkill.

Displayed far more than any of them? Pathetic. Dooku > Malak. Anakin >> Traya in saber skills, and raw power. And, for Sidious, go see Sithisis. He was very powerful in RotS.

That you'd suggest he can take all of them is incompetent.

Displayed far more than any of them?

Yes, his knowledge, achievements, and how the other characters fellate him make it pretty clear that he's damn powerful, Palpatine by ROTS is nothing special.

And, for Sidious, go see Sithisis. He was very powerful in RotS.

Sithisis isn't canon.

RotS Sidious is nothing special? Ah, I see. Then, I suppose, given that Dooku or Sidious would lay the smackdown on Malak, he's nothing special either?

Or that DE Sidious would crush Revan in a fight, Revan is nothing special in comparison?

Once again, it's inept of you to dictate who is special and who is not. Darth Bandon is nothing special. RotS Sidious can lift three speeder sized objects, simultaneously, without any effort.

Sithisis isn't canon.

Based on...?

RotS Sidious is nothing special?

By nothing special, I mean in comparison to titans such as Nihilus and Sion, people who Revan was able to rule over in a sith order where the strongest ruled.

Ah, I see. Then, I suppose, given that Dooku or Sidious would lay the smackdown on Malak, he's nothing special either?

Depends, are we talking SF Malak here, or just normal. I'd wager that SF Malak would defeat them.

Or that DE Sidious would crush Revan in a fight, Revan is nothing special in comparison?

We're talking ROTS Sidious here, not DE Sidious.

Based on...?

It's an infinity...

Originally posted by Dessel
Yes, his knowledge, achievements, and how the other characters fellate him make it pretty clear that he's damn powerful, Palpatine by ROTS is nothing special.

Sithisis isn't canon.

Originally posted by Dessel
By nothing special, I mean in comparison to titans such as Nihilus and Sion, people who Revan was able to rule over in a sith order where the strongest ruled.

It's an infinity...

By nothing special, I mean in comparison to titans such as Nihilus and Sion, people who Revan was able to rule over in a sith order where the strongest ruled.

So... like I said. Revan must, by your logic, be nothing special in comparison to someone like LotF Luke, LotF Jacen, DE Sidious, or Exar Kun, correct?

Depends, are we talking SF Malak here, or just normal. I'd wager that SF Malak would defeat them.

Well, considering how we're talking about Malak, with no 'SF' in front of it, it means regular KotoR Malak. Anakin > Malak in swordsmanship (and one can argue in Force powers), and Dooku > Malak all the way around.

We're talking ROTS Sidious here, not DE Sidious.

Doesn't matter. By your logic, Revan is nothing in comparison to someone like DE Sidious.

OK, this has kind of gotten slightly off topic. But remember, any of the sith in team 1 would be horribly outnumbered, Revan, Malak and Traya all together would be able to easily beat any of these sith.

Originally posted by Dessel
OK, this has kind of gotten slightly off topic. But remember, any of the sith in team 1 would be horribly outnumbered, Revan, Malak and Traya all together would be able to easily beat any of these sith.

Outnumbered? According to Nikk, it's all three RotS people vs. all three KotoR people.

- Revan vs. Sidious: Revan will likely dominate the fight, but Sidious will give him hell.

- Malak vs. Dooku: Dooku dominates the fight with superior skill, and kills Malak.

- Traya vs. Anakin: Traya doesn't have her instakill, so she'd better use some serious Force powers to put Anakin out of the fight. Anakin WTFpwned Dooku in a lightsaber fight, simply because he overwhelmed him. I can see him doing that to Traya - except quicker.

Then, it's Sidious, Dooku, and Anakin vs. Revan.

Oh, my mistake. I thought it was Sidious or Tyranus or Vader versus the three.

Sidious beats Revan, Vader beats Malak, Tyranus beats Traya. Game, set, match.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Sidious beats Revan, Vader beats Malak, Tyranus beats Traya. Game, set, match.

ROTS Sidious cannot defeat Revan. His Force Lightening cannot stop Revan.

Darth Traya had the ability to wield three or more lightsabers in combat (just like Exar Kun) and she can cause more confusion and trouble for Tyranus and then she can overwhelm him with her force powers.

Vader cannot easily defeat Malak. Remember that Vader is vulnerable to Force Lightening and Malak is also an experienced Duelist. This fight is more based on chance and luck.

Malak even on Leviathan was not weak. He could use his force powers to distract or briefly stop his opponents and then retreat and then return with full strength. He can do the same against Vader.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove Revan even knew those guys

Nihilus and Sion were never mentioned in KOTOR because they were introduced in KOTOR II. And note that remnants of Revan's Sith Empire actually joined them.

Also, Revan knew that Traya has trained more then one apprentices. I don't remember the source now but someone did mentioned this here in one of the threads.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nope

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Doesn't make a difference. Palpatine is a match for any of the other three

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Revan has, in no way, displayed more than Palpatine. Or Dooku.

Did you forgot his achievements?

Sidious and Revan > Dooku!

Originally posted by ESB -1138
About Revan
On DE Palpatine knew Force Storm. No other Force user has ever used Force storm. And you are saying that Revan knows deadly Sith moves that he hasn't revealed yet. Okay Palpatine can devour the Force. He just hasn't revealed it yet. See how retarded that is?

Revan has used "Force Storm" in Lehon against Rakatan Warriors.

Also, have you read "Darth Bane: POD" Novel? if not then read it!

It was revealed in that Novel that Revan knew some other Deadly Dark Side Force Powers besides "Thought Bomb" and "Force Storm".

Originally posted by ESB -1138
About Malak
Where have you heard that Malak knows Form II? You are just making crap up now. Force drain is only an in-game move like Force heal. So are you saying that people actually have HP and somehow they are able to withstand lightsaber attacks?

Force Drain is not an in-game Force Power. It is an ancient Dark Side power that has been used by many Sith Lords in KOTOR and pre-KOTOR era including Revan and Malak.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
About Traya
Okay I agree. [/B]

Over-confidence can lead to defeat my young apprentice! 🙄

I would advise that you stow your advice and follow it before giving it to others. Some of us have deduced from your other posts that you are a bit arrogant, to throw your opinion around and assume that it will stick, or that we should abide by it. That isn't how it works.

ROTS Sidious cannot defeat Revan. His Force Lightening cannot stop Revan.

It sure stopped someone as powerful as Mace Windu. Yoda, Sidious, and Count Dooku have all been shown to be capable of deflecting and absorbing Force lightning (except when it's hitting them in the face and they are preoccupied from catching it - Sidious). Revan, however, has not shown such a capacity.

Also, consider that Palpatine was able to lift three car sized objects without any difficulty (simultaneously), which nearly nailed Yoda on three occasions, despite Yoda's immense speed. Prove where Revan is capable of dodging them, or what Sidious may do if he actually puts effort into it.

While I personally believe Revan would dominate the fight, Sidious won't be going down easy (or at all).

Darth Traya had the ability to wield three or more lightsabers in combat (just like Exar Kun) and she can cause more confusion and trouble for Tyranus and then she can overwhelm him with her force powers.

I'm not aware of Kun being able to do that, but I'll take your word for it. Count Dooku, however, is stated to be one of the very best duelists in history. The undisputed master of Makashi, which (other than Vaapad), is the ultimate lightsaber fighting form. I wouldn't hesitate to say that Dooku is a much better swordsman than Traya. Then, calculate that Traya's instakill is barred from the fight. I wouldn't put her that much above Dooku in terms of Force usage, if she is at all.

Dooku likely wins.

Vader cannot easily defeat Malak. Remember that Vader is vulnerable to Force Lightening and Malak is also an experienced Duelist. This fight is more based on chance and luck.

Vader's raw power and swordsmanship are superior to Malak's own. This is RotS Vader. Not suited Vader. He'll be all over Malak like shit on velcro. Dooku was unable to attempt to use the Force against Anakin, because of Anakin's raw tenacity.

Originally posted by Escape81
I would advise that you stow your advice and follow it before giving it to others. Some of us have deduced from your other posts that you are a bit arrogant, to throw your opinion around and assume that it will stick, or that we should abide by it. That isn't how it works.

He never even provided some reasons. Is this is how things work here?

Originally posted by Escape81
It sure stopped someone as powerful as Mace Windu. Yoda, Sidious, and Count Dooku have all been shown to be capable of deflecting and absorbing Force lightning (except when it's hitting them in the face and they are preoccupied from catching it - Sidious). Revan, however, has not shown such a capacity.

Also, consider that Palpatine was able to lift three car sized objects without any difficulty (simultaneously), which nearly nailed Yoda on three occasions, despite Yoda's immense speed. Prove where Revan is capable of dodging them, or what Sidious may do if he actually puts effort into it.

Use some logic!

Originally posted by Escape81
While I personally believe Revan would dominate the fight, Sidious won't be going down easy (or at all).

Sidious is a formidable opponent.

Originally posted by Escape81
I'm not aware of Kun being able to do that, but I'll take your word for it. Count Dooku, however, is stated to be one of the very best duelists in history. The undisputed master of Makashi, which (other than Vaapad), is the ultimate lightsaber fighting form. I wouldn't hesitate to say that Dooku is a much better swordsman than Traya. Then, calculate that Traya's instakill is barred from the fight. I wouldn't put her that much above Dooku in terms of Force usage, if she is at all.

Dooku likely wins.

Originally posted by Escape81
Vader's raw power and swordsmanship are superior to Malak's own. This is RotS Vader. Not suited Vader. He'll be all over Malak like shit on velcro. Dooku was unable to attempt to use the Force against Anakin, because of Anakin's raw tenacity. [/B]

"Darth Malak was a master swordsman, and an adept Force-user, excelling particularly in such dark side skills as Force lightning, Life Drain, and Force choking. He also excelled in Lightsaber Throw and Stasis. Darth Malak used an improved lightsaber that produced a longer blade, if compared to the standard sabers. The hilt was identical to that of shorter lightsabers."

Now! you think that these abilities are not enough to stop Vader? Pre-Suit Vader does not even knows Force Lightening?

STOP under-estimating MALAK. He was only defeated by Revan and no one else!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
[B]Revan has displayed much more then Dooku!

Did you forgot his achievements?

Sidious and Revan > Dooku!

Palpatine over Dooku is a no brainer

[Quote]

We are talking about ROTS Sidious here.

Revan has used "Force Storm" in Lehon against Rakatan Warriors.

Also, have you read "Darth Bane: POD" Novel? if not then read it!

And Palpatine created a storm
BTW: Force lightning on a greater account is not a storm. Palpatine's flunky Sedriss did that.
Oh, and I read that novel before most anyone else did
[Quote]
It was revealed in that Novel that Revan knew some other Deadly Dark Side Force Powers besides "Thought Bomb" and "Force Storm".

Many people say that Malak demonstrates Makashi. But it does not matters that whether he uses Makashi or not but I do know that he was second best Duelist in the Jedi Order after Revan.

Force Drain is not an in-game Force Power. It is an ancient Dark Side power that has been used by many Sith Lords in KOTOR and pre-KOTOR era including Revan and Malak.

And you forgot to look at the conclusion made by jollyjim311? He never even provided some reasons. Is this is how things work here?

Jollyjim has two things that you do not.

1) His opinion on the matter has been supported by others.
2) He has a reputation, and one that doesn't inspire "I'm always right, you're wrong, so don't bother debating".

As a new guy around here, and someone who does not have the luxary of strong logical support, it isn't your place to decide what happens. Don't try to pass off your opinion as fact.

Do you think that a person who can defeat an entire army could not have "immense knowledge in the force" and could do that with just his saber skills?

Use some logic!

Pick a new approach of debating with me. The whole arrogant aggressive behavior isn't going to cut it, and it's going to put me in the very same fashion.

Does Revan possess more knowledge than a sixty-something Master of the Dark Side, and heir to Darth Bane's order (who has, guess what, Revan's knowledge and then some)? Does Revan possess more knowledge than the former's eighty-year-old apprentice who has studied both sides of the Force for longer than Revan? No. And, does Darth Revan have more knowledge than a Jedi Grandmaster whose study of the Force and experience calculates to over eight centuries?

No.

So, until you can prove where Revan is capable of absorbing lightning, or that his knowledge equals to that of Dooku, Sidious, and Yoda, you have no point. Force lightning can harm and kill Revan.

Well! you made a good case here but remember that Traya's ability to wield more then 3 light sabers will cause distraction and will slow Dooku down and Traya can easily take advantage in that situation.

You're assuming. Dooku was also a master of "taking advantage" of things. Once again, there is nothing to indicate that Traya is anywhere near as skilled as Dooku is in lightsabers. Without her instakill, her Force attacks won't be as effective. If she's more powerful than someone of the caliber of Count Dooku, it may not be by much at all.

And yet this is what is said about Malak!

"Darth Malak was a master swordsman, and an adept Force-user, excelling particularly in such dark side skills as Force lightning, Life Drain, and Force choking. He also excelled in Lightsaber Throw and Stasis. Darth Malak used an improved lightsaber that produced a longer blade, if compared to the standard sabers. The hilt was identical to that of shorter lightsabers."

Now! you think that these abilities are not enough to stop Vader? Pre-Suit Vader does not even knows Force Lightening?

Pre-suit Vader has a ferocity and raw power that knocks the hell out of Malak's. Dooku (who is superior in the Force to Malak) was unable to defeat Anakin, due to Anakin's raw power, and Dooku is trained in the most proficient form of lightsaber combat. Obi-Wan (weaker than Anakin) absorbed Force lightning from Dooku (stronger than Malak) using a lightsaber. Put two and two together. What the hell makes you think Lightning's gonna stop him.

The only one we know who is capable of effortlessly blasting through the defenses afforded by a lightsaber is Sidious.

STOP under-estimating MALAK. He was only defeated by Revan and no one else!

Shut the hell up, dude. Wanna know why he was defeated by Revan and nobody else?!!?! 'Cause Revan killed him. Hard to be beaten by other people when you're dead.

The only one who beat Vader is Obi-Wan. Whoops! Guess that means only Obi-Wan can beat him? The only one who beat a suited Vader is RotJ Luke. Guess only RotJ Luke can beat him?

Why don't you try using some logic.

Originally posted by Escape81
Jollyjim has two things that you do not.

1) His opinion on the matter has been supported by others.
2) He has a reputation, and one that doesn't inspire "I'm always right, you're wrong, so don't bother debating".

As a new guy around here, and someone who does not have the luxary of strong logical support, it isn't your place to decide what happens. Don't try to pass off your opinion as fact.

Just giving conclusions is not enough. Anyways! it's his arguement and not yours so stop pin-pointing me that to whom I should argue with!

Originally posted by Escape81
Pick a new approach of debating with me. The whole arrogant aggressive behavior isn't going to cut it, and it's going to put me in the very same fashion.

We are just discussing right?

Originally posted by Escape81
Does Revan possess more knowledge than a sixty-something Master of the Dark Side, and heir to Darth Bane's order (who has, guess what, Revan's knowledge and then some)? Does Revan possess more knowledge than the former's eighty-year-old apprentice who has studied both sides of the Force for longer than Revan? No. And, does Darth Revan have more knowledge than a Jedi Grandmaster whose study of the Force and experience calculates to over eight centuries?

No.

So, until you can prove where Revan is capable of absorbing lightning, or that his knowledge equals to that of Dooku, Sidious, and Yoda, you have no point. Force lightning can harm and kill Revan.

You can't stick to a single point can you?

And now "Force Lightening" can kill Revan? Which can be blocked by Light Saber?

Revan's knowledge is stated to be greater then all of the Jedi and Sith in KOTOR period. He could even manipulate Dark Side for his use and this is not enough evidence for you?

Yoda despite his 800 years of experience could not defeat Dooku and Sidious? right?

Originally posted by Escape81
You're assuming. Dooku was also a master of "taking advantage" of things. Once again, there is nothing to indicate that Traya is anywhere near as skilled as Dooku is in lightsabers. Without her instakill, her Force attacks won't be as effective. If she's more powerful than someone of the caliber of Count Dooku, it may not be by much at all.

But he needs time to counter many Light Sabers that Traya will pit against him?

And at that point, Traya can take advantage. Is this hard to understand?

Originally posted by Escape81
Pre-suit Vader has a ferocity and raw power that knocks the hell out of Malak's. Dooku (who is superior in the Force to Malak) was unable to defeat Anakin, due to Anakin's raw power, and Dooku is trained in the most proficient form of lightsaber combat. Obi-Wan (weaker than Anakin) absorbed Force lightning from Dooku (stronger than Malak) using a lightsaber. Put two and two together. What the hell makes you think Lightning's gonna stop him.

The only one we know who is capable of effortlessly blasting through the defenses afforded by a lightsaber is Sidious.

Dooku was an old man when fought against Anakin in ROTS. Anakin was young and more agile and was also an experienced Duelist and had fought Dooku before to understand his style of combat. So, Anakin had better chance to win that second fight and he did.

And you forgot to note that Dooku actually did not used his force powers against Anakin during the duel in ROTS. He was over-confident!

Malak was young my friend. He was also wise and powerful and an experienced Duelist and he was also physically stronger then pre-suit Vader.

Anakin had no raw power and would rush over his opponents. A technique that worked over OLD Dooku but not on Obi-Wan (who was not even as powerful as Dooku was and got repeatedly pawned by him).

So, what makes you think that Anakin's technique would work over Malak.

You need to get out of this "Anakin Saber Skills better then all" mentality.

What makes you think that Malak would do the same mistake that Dooku did against Anakin?

Originally posted by Escape81
Shut the hell up, dude. Wanna know why he was defeated by Revan and nobody else?!!?! 'Cause Revan killed him. Hard to be beaten by other people when you're dead.

The only one who beat Vader is Obi-Wan. Whoops! Guess that means only Obi-Wan can beat him?

Now you have started insults?

He was defeated by Revan because many believed that only Revan could take him down.

Obi-Wan bested Vader because he was more experienced and not as arrogant as Anakin was!

Do you think that Yoda, Mace and Sidious could not defeat him?

Originally posted by Escape81
The only one who beat a suited Vader is RotJ Luke. Guess only RotJ Luke can beat him?
Why don't you try using some logic.

And Vader's agility and mobility was some what limited by his cyborg suit.

I am using some Logic but you are sticked to you suppossed assumptions about these Jedi and Sith.