Originally posted by Dessel
That's just silly, you can use the word 'tool' and whatever, but the fact is that Vader deserves as much of the credit.
Did Vader plan the destruction of the Jedi Order?
No.
Did Vader plan the dissolution of the Empire?
No.
Did Vader plan the course of the Clone Wars?
No.
I don't care if you think Vader deserves the credit. Palpatine planned it all and used his henchmen to execute it. Vader had zero part of the planning process.
Point moot.
You don't dictate what is fact and what is not. Vader doesn't deserve half the credit.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
His system of one master one apprentice
But this technique was used to disguise the existance of Sith Lords. It has nothing to do with enhancement of Force Knowledge.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
To quote the NEC: "For the first time in 25,000 years, the Jedi Order had ceased to exist."
Darth Sion almost wiped out entire Jedi Order and only Jed Exile was last hope.
Sounds like that SW-Canon stories are conflicting with each other.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
If by 'significant' you mean 'completely weak until they got extremely lucky...'
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And got farther than any other one ever did
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Not this bullshit again...Revan meant to conquer the Republic, according to any document out there. It was one Sith Lord guarding his domain from others. Revan was EVIL, just look at how he's portrayed in PoD
He wanted to conquer Republic but he did not wanted to destroy it. He wanted support of Republic with him when he would face the the hidden "True Sith Empire".
Revan was Dark Lord of the Sith no doubt but he never truely fell to Dark Side like Malak did.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Possibly others.
I don't think that Dooku and Vader surpassed the best of KOTOR and Pre-KOTOR periods. By best I mean Revan, Exar Kun, Nihilus, Sadow, Ragnos, Tulak etc.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Mainly because they were THERE to buy time
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Name a single one that wasn't reliant on technology.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Too bad. He didn't
Originally posted by Lightsnake
"Conquer and hold territory." Nope, sorry, according to PoD, he was a BAD PERSON as a Sith Lord
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm sure Palpatine will be glad to put a saber through that dazzling grin of his. And Palpatine could always manipulate people, Dooku could inspire people...so?
You sound like a Sidious Fanboy to me actually!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Not according to the game.....you'll have to prove up....
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Only Luke was above Yoda. ROTs novelization acknowloedges him as the strongest to live up until that point
Originally posted by Lightsnake
As is what's in a few other things
Originally posted by Lightsnake
actually it was a plague, infighting, slave uprising...
Star Forge was a ultimate weapon of the Dark Side power. It caused corruption in the Rakatan Super-Empire, which resulted in a devastating Civil War and all other factors are secondary.
This information was mentioned by the Computer of the "Rakatan Temple".
Originally posted by Lightsnake
The Infinite Empire fell due to many, many factors
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Would you learn what a ****ing Force Storm IS? It's a tear in the fabric of reality, not 'lightning from the sky.
But POD mentions that Revan knew "Force Storm" and Bane learned it from him? right?
Force Storm has no fixed forms!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
stop acting like an arrogant little jackass because it's really getting on my nerves
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Him and twenty other people. So?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Gameplay isn't canon. The only thing canon is he turned her back by refusing to fight her after the battle
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Now you just pissed me off, fanboy:
Count Dooku, Anakin Skywalker, han Solo, Ulic Qel-Droma, Etain...
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wow, and it became an Empire! Therefore, the Republic was gone! And last I checked, Sion didn't accomplish a thing on his own. Palpatine did what it took the combined efforts of Revan, Malak, Sion and Nihilus
With FAR less loose ends
Palpatine wanted to Conquer the Galaxy. Revan did not!
Sion and Nihilus were different cases but if they were not stopped by Jedi Exile, then imagine what could have happened!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sure, you could. Yoda did
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Awwwww, except his allignment is confirmed.
Does it gives you a glimpse of Revan's power!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
and Palpatine survived his death. Different circumstances, fanboy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Grow up, would you?/QUOTE]
I am! but you don't seem to understand that you need to learn more about KOTOR history.[QUOTE=7754847]Originally posted by Lightsnake
Big deal. They're still canon
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Why? Dooku was able to tool him when Grievous was bigger, faster and stronger
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Just watch the cartoon. No, he wasn't
Originally posted by Lightsnake
You're using game stats in this argument?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's what we call Ataru and compensation
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Looks like he didn't use Form V
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sure it does. Older people use the fight to keep them going for the fight. Yoda could fight as long as he wanted with the Force, despite his age
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hey, umm....Supershadow is bullshit. A fraud and a liar
But their are cases when apprentices have surpassed their masters!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yet the ROTS novelization asserts it was because of Padme.
Funny that
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Never once did that godly instakill drain, HM!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hm, never saw it used succesfully against someone half decent. Funny, that
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Grievous was stronger and faster. Therefore, your point about Malak no longer applies
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nor are Malak and Revan
No one is invincible actually!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wow, pathetic points from a pathetic poster [/B]
Funny enough! I still don't call you pathetic because I am not like you!
Stop this "Well Revan didn't really fall" BS, he most certainly did, however he didn't fall in the conventional sense that he was gradually brought towards the Dark Side or it was out of his hands, he made a choice and his choice was to become a Sith, much like Jacen and he turned to the dark side.
Now Revan may have not been dominated by the Dark Side letting it guide his actions and feelings but he was still a relatively evil bastard, lets not forget that this is the same person who had thousands of men and women slaughtered simply because they weren't blindly loyal to him, this is the same guy who corrupted and broke Jedi after Jedi, this is he same guy who as KOTOR described conquered the outer rim in a brutal fashion. He may have had good intentions starting off but they were soon warped, or as Kreia pointed out that may have been his personality all along and he really was a dick which is even worse.
And Revan most certainly wanted to conquer the Republic for his own, hence his arrogant view that only through HIS government and HIS control could the galaxy survive. If he didn't Im supremely sure the Republic would welcome the help of the man who single handedly saved their asses from the Mandalorians in a threat that is lurking in the unknown regions.
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Stop this "Well Revan didn't really fall" BS, he most certainly did, however he didn't fall in the conventional sense that he was gradually brought towards the Dark Side or it was out of his hands, he made a choice and his choice was to become a Sith, much like Jacen and he turned to the dark side.Now Revan may have not been dominated by the Dark Side letting it guide his actions and feelings but he was still a relatively evil bastard, lets not forget that this is the same person who had thousands of men and women slaughtered simply because they weren't blindly loyal to him, this is the same guy who corrupted and broke Jedi after Jedi, this is he same guy who as KOTOR described conquered the outer rim in a brutal fashion. He may have had good intentions starting off but they were soon warped, or as Kreia pointed out that may have been his personality all along and he really was a dick which is even worse.
And Revan most certainly wanted to conquer the Republic for his own, hence his arrogant view that only through HIS government and HIS control could the galaxy survive. If he didn't Im supremely sure the Republic would welcome the help of the man who single handedly saved their asses from the Mandalorians in a threat that is lurking in the unknown regions.
No one said here that Revan never fell to Dark Side. What I mentioned was that Revan was not as much corrupted by the Dark Side as Malak was.
Malak as a Sith Lord was more brutal and he destroyed two worlds in KOTOR game as an example. Malak never understood Revan's true purpose.
Revan had great wisdom. He made smart choices, which could often be brutal but his purpose was different from most other Sith Lords.
He did not wanted to conquer the entire Galaxy or else this would be mentioned in KOTOR repeatedly.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
All Sith are Evil indeed.No one said here that Revan never fell to Dark Side. What I mentioned was that Revan was not as much corrupted by the Dark Side as Malak was.
Malak as a Sith Lord was more brutal and he destroyed two worlds in KOTOR game as an example. Malak never understood Revan's true purpose.
Revan had great wisdom. He made smart choices, which could often be brutal but his purpose was different from most other Sith Lords.
He did not wanted to conquer the entire Galaxy or else this would be mentioned in KOTOR repeatedly.
So what? Your arguing particulars, Revan destroyed thousands of Mandalorian and Republic troops, and hundreds of Jedi, destroyed a planet, and almost inadvertently caused the death of the entire Universe. Revan would leave entire worlds undefended and left to Mandalorian nuclear attacks just to defend anther, Revan was not a nice person. Malak although brutal was still in control of himself and fully aware of what he was doing.
Now, when Malak was possessed by the Star Forge, THAT is when he lost control of his actions and became a tool for the Star Forge, THAT is the ONLY case you could make for Revan avoiding such a fall, because he purposely limited his exposer to the Star Forge.
He made smart choices? So did palpatine, big deal. He wanted the galaxy as his, that is why he would impose an Empire led by himself on a democracy. And all the references in KOTOR your speaking of, try to prove Revan was not trying to DESTROY the Republic completely, HOWEVER he was STILL CONQUERING IT.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well! Bane was a talented individual indeed!But this technique was used to disguise the existance of Sith Lords. It has nothing to do with enhancement of Force Knowledge.
Then KOTOR II is wrong as well?Darth Sion almost wiped out entire Jedi Order and only Jed Exile was last hope.
Sounds like that SW-Canon stories are conflicting with each other.
They were lucky but they accomplished the impossible. How did they do it is secondary but they destroyed the Death Star. End of Story!
Revan wanted to conquer Republic but not like Malak. He spared many of the important assets that Republic had.
He wanted to conquer Republic but he did not wanted to destroy it. He wanted support of Republic with him when he would face the the hidden "True Sith Empire".
Revan was Dark Lord of the Sith no doubt but he never truely fell to Dark Side like Malak did.
And these are?I don't think that Dooku and Vader surpassed the best of KOTOR and Pre-KOTOR periods. By best I mean Revan, Exar Kun, Nihilus, Sadow, Ragnos, Tulak etc.
They were not there to buy some time. They went there to distract Bastilla but they could not reach her and got killed.
Same case with Sidious!Revan had a different purpose. Stop dragging same thing again and again and learn something about Revan's history.
That was Malak's approach. POD showed his Dark Side and not his Light Side.
And Revan would not counter that? huh?You sound like a [B]Sidious Fanboy to me actually!
Game gives you choices. Argue with Bioware then!
Too bad for you! KOTOR is completely canon as well.
You actually don't know proper story of KOTOR.Star Forge was a ultimate weapon of the Dark Side power. It caused corruption in the Rakatan Super-Empire, which resulted in a devastating Civil War and all other factors are secondary.
This information was mentioned by the Computer of the "Rakatan Temple".
All other factors are secondary. Star Forge was the ultimate reason.
Whatever it was, it was deadly.But POD mentions that Revan knew "Force Storm" and Bane learned it from him? right?
Force Storm has no fixed forms!
Because you actually know very little about KOTOR history and thats why it is recommended for you to play KOTOR again and refresh your knowledge.
Good enough!Show me evidence!
Good! but Han was not!
Sion planned and master-minded assasinations of many Jedi and almost wiped out the Order.
Palpatine wanted to Conquer the Galaxy. Revan did not!
Sion and Nihilus were different cases but if they were not stopped by Jedi Exile, then imagine what could have happened!
Yoda did not demonstrated all those Force powers that I have mentioned here!
And?Does it gives you a glimpse of Revan's power!
Thanks for reminding me again! Sidious Fanboy!/Quote]
Better a fanboy than an idiot.[Quote]
Canon stories often conflict with each other.
So you think that Malak could not?
Game Stats are based on logic and not just assumptions.
Do not forget "Force Speed"!
I don't care!
What if an OLD Jedi did not had enough knowledge of the force as Yoda had? how would that Jedi keep up?
I don't like him either!But their are cases when apprentices have surpassed their masters!
Anakin was using his anger during that fight. Now! if he lost due to memories of Padme then I pity on him because he chocked her in the first place.
He uses Force Drain on Revan and it does noticeable Damage if we forget to use "Force Immunity". Even some states get wasted due to Malak's "Force Drain" so it is better not to give him such a chance and Revan did not.
Depends upon those Sith who know it but they do if given a chance?
But he was defeated by Dooku and pawned by Obi-Wan. Malak is on par with them.
Nor are Sidious and Vader!No one is invincible actually!
And you are 100% correct in your entire Judgement despite of so many flaws in your post? right?Funny enough! I still don't call you pathetic because I am not like you! [/B]
Honestly, I don't think Revan was your average `POWER, UNLIMITED POWER!` Sith Lord, but more of an `the ends justify the means`. He left planets to be glassed by Mandalorians, which is bad when you consider that they butchered trillion of defenceless men, women and children; but good when one considers that it led to the eventual repulsion of the Mandalorian forces.
I see this coming from Traya, really. Traya was a `the ends justify the means` person. She had noble goals, and Revan had noble goals; but the means they used didn't always present them as being very nice people.
Originally posted by Swirly Girl
Honestly, I don't think Revan was your average `POWER, UNLIMITED POWER!` Sith Lord, but more of an `the ends justify the means`. He left planets to be glassed by Mandalorians, which is bad when you consider that they butchered trillion of defenceless men, women and children; but good when one considers that it led to the eventual repulsion of the Mandalorian forces.I see this coming from Traya, really. Traya was a `the ends justify the means` person. She had noble goals, and Revan had noble goals; but the means they used didn't always present them as being very nice people.
Exactly what I was attempting to say a Machiavellian type Sith is still evil none the less.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Read PoD again, K? "The Dark Side is spread too thin!" and the entire system is based on the apprentice growing stronger than the Master, so that the cycle continues
You are very stupid indeed!
"So the cycle continues" means that same thing continued from past.
You obviously aren't mature enough to understand a few lines!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, my. Except apparently the Order still existed, though most of the surviving Jedi died, thanks to the Exile, Bastila, Vima and the like. Here's a hint: When you capitalize on someone else's work when you only have a hundred Jedi to deal with, it's hardly so impressive
Have you totally lost your mind?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Totally irrelevant
Because this event shows the failure of Emperor, so now it is irrelevant to you?
I can sense your baised approach here!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
This is proof he was still good how? He was a far thinker. That's it
Originally posted by Lightsnake
IE: He wanted a fully militarily sound group to defeat his rivals
So, thats why he built his own powerful Empire.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, he made a conscious decision to become evil. In PoD, he's talking about true darkness and made a holocron.Someone who 'never really fell' cannot do that
Originally posted by Lightsnake
They likely surpassed a few of them.
I am sensing "Super-Shadow" BS here!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Like I said: Buy time
They were not their to buy some time for Revan's team.
Stop spouting BS!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I suggest you shut up. It's not the same thing with Palpatine
Palpatine's goal was ultimate domination of the entire Galaxy. Revan's was not.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hmmm, maybe because he was a dark and evil person until his memory was gone? He made a ****ing Sith Holocron
Many ****ing Sith Lords made their damn Sith Holocrons.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Revan would not counter the power of someone stronger, no
- Dooku was defeated by someone who was less powerful.
- Sidous had his @ss handed to him by Mace, who was less powerful but Anakin saved him.
- Marka Ragnos was defeated by someone who was less powerful.
- Darth Maul was defeated by someone who was less powerful.
Now! speak????
And you think that when "Palpatine will be glad to put a saber through that dazzling grin of Revan's", then Revan will just stand their and smile at him???
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And the canon is determined. Argue with LFL
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And too bad for you it has to conform to higher levels of canon such as the novelizations
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And the plague. And the slave uprisings, and the Sith defeating them....more than one factor and the game even says this
It corrupted the Rakatan leaders and all of them turned on each other in lust for greater power. Hence the Civil War started and Empire Crumbled.
You have to look at the main thing that started their downfall. All other reasons are secondary.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And the NEC says it was due to quite a few factors
Lucas Arts (a G-canon source) approved these lines in the game before it was launched.
BIOWARE did not made-up this entire story by themselves.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Not according to the canon
Point moot.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nope.
Revan knew "Force Storm" anyways and Bane demonstrated a similar "Force Storm" as well.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes it does, moron. Under its ****ing list in the source books, it gives the EXACT definition
1 - Force Storm (wormhole) [demonstrated by Sidious]
2 - Force Storm (lightning) [demonstrated by Revan and Bane]
Description of Force Storm (Lightning):
Force Storm was an extremely powerful dark side Force power and represented the pinnacle of the Force's power to manipulate electrons, proving more devastating even than the lethal Force lightning. The users raised their palm upward and through the Force accelerated the movement of airborne electrons, creating an explosion of electricity that the user then directed at all foes in the vicinity. It was used by both the Sith and Jedi with dark side tendencies during the Jedi Civil War. Unlike the weaker Force lightning, Force Storm was not limited to attacking enemies in one direction, as it affected all foes within a certain radius from the user.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Why don't you just shut up and read a bit?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ultimate Visual Guide, fanboy. And the game itself
I believe that Revan did not fight Bastilla but do you think that Bastilla was powerful enough to stop him???
Originally posted by Lightsnake
hm, Boba's Mandalorian born commandos certainly respect Han. Funny that
But Revan was respected by the ultimate "Mandelore" himself (Who led his forces against the Republic). Even one of his personal followers was a powerful mandelorian "Canderous" who himself became a Mandelore later-on.
Guess what? Revan was most respected by them!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
By 'many', you mean 'less than a hundred.' And Nihilus killed most of them
He wiped out as many as possible and Jedi Order was in ruins.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He wanted to conquer the Republic but leave its infrastructure intact. Same thing
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Stopped by Thon and Vima Sunrider maybe, who the hell knows.
huh! both Thon and Vima would be crushed by them very easily.
Jedi Exile was lucky because she was "wound in the force".
Continued....
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nope. but the sourcebooks confirm his knowledge of them
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes. Revan at the end is light. Yoda at the end is The strongest light sider the galaxy had seen up to that point.
Yoda>Revan. Case closed
His accomplishments prove this!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Is that your only defense? G-canon>C-canon. Sorry
All materials that are considered canon are actually appoved by Lucas before being published or mentioned. Point moot.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Never said that. Just defeating your point that Malak's bigger, stronger and more agile
Anakin was not a body-builder or as heavily built as Malak was!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Game Stats are N-canon, sorry.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which everyone and their mother knows
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Because you're an idiot
Malak was a very good saber duelist. End of Story!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
They wouldn't. Yoda'd destroy them.
These are you words: "Sure it does. Older people use the fight to keep them going for the fight. Yoda could fight as long as he wanted with the Force, despite his age"
And you tried to tell me before that OLD people are better force users. What a moronic statement this is!
And this thread is not even about Yoda but instead it is about Dooku!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
That was the entire BASIS of Bane's SYSTEM. Darth Imperious never existed. He was MADE UP by said liar
Originally posted by Lightsnake
You miss the whole "You brought her here to kill me!" Speech?
You surely!!! well! what should I say??? Forget it!!!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oooh, gameplay again? Sorry, if it were an instakil, it'd ave killed him, so apparently it's not. Apparently Force Immunity gives you all the defense you need, HM![.QUOTE]
It was an effective "Force Drain" power regardless because Malak leached the Life of his Jedi Captives from it![QUOTE=7758691]Originally posted by Lightsnake
Apparently their chances didn't do much
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Grievous is STILL stronger and faster than Malak
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Some are less invincible than others
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Correct enough. [/B]
A correction!
Orginally posted by Lightsnake
Oooh, gameplay again? Sorry, if it were an instakil, it'd ave killed him, so apparently it's not. Apparently Force Immunity gives you all the defense you need, HM!
And without "Force Immunity", it caused massive harm! so!
Anakin has no defence against it! anyways!
Some description on "Force Drain":
Force Drain, or sometimes Drain Life, is the dark side equivalent of Force Healing, the difference being that the user drained the target's Force and life reserves to fuel the regenerative process, or to replenish their own strength in the Force. Greater aptitude allowed exceptional drainage speed and the ability to drain multiple people at once. It manifests itself as red lightning.
Darth Malak applied Force Drain upon Jedi captives to heal his wounds during his final confrontation against Revan. Darth Traya was a master of this insidious power and used it to quickly kill her enemies. Darth Nihilus took this ability to such heights that he could feed off entire worlds at a time. Exar Kun took Force Drain to another level by draining the life-force of the whole Massassi species, so that his spirit could seal on Yavin 4 for more than four thousand years.
Emperor Palpatine fed off the inhabitants of his retreat world of Byss collectively with his Dark Side Adepts, although those unfortunate souls were drained slowly, over a long period of time, rather than consuming the whole world at once.
Even Palpatine used it. So it is not a obsolete force power and indeed an effective power!