Sparrabeth

Started by lovethemtigers300 pages

Originally posted by katelovespirate
that was really creative!!!!!! i laughed so hard.... keira as rachel mcadams... Johnny as Ryan Gosling... HAHAHAHAH!!!! It was SO CUTE~!!! and TRUE!!! Every clip was perfectly placed. Everyone, check out this video. it's really great.

when are the next chapters on the tragic sparrabeth story coming out???


I don't know...but Chapter One was released in July...and Chapter two just came out..so it took her about 2 1/2 months to do the second one...I just hope the next one doesn't take as long. I love her vids....she also did one of my all time favorite Sparrabeth vids....
"Anywhere"

Wow! Great clips and wonderful comparison between GWTW And POTC.

About the novel BTW. I've read it...and I love it. Much better than what got made. There is a post where I typed out all the Sparrabeth moments in the novel but I don't know where it is so let me just quote that last farewell by memory as I don't have the novel with me:
Elizabeth: It would never have worked between us.
Jack: Keep telling yourself that.
The lean towards each other and Jack can't help but make on last attempt at her heart.
Jack: Every king needs a queen.
Then he pulled away (keep in mind that HE pulled away) because her heart would always belong to another and his always to the Pearl.

Yes! Sad but romantic. He didn't kiss her because he was convinced she loved Will and only Will and convinced himself that he could only ever love the Pearl. SIIIIIGH!
Getting past that. I came by an interesting article in wordplayer (by this point I've read all of T&T's articles) and thought it would be interesting if you apply the method to POTC and Sparrabeth.
http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp47.100.Million.Mistake.html

OOOOOPS! Sorry That link is long and hard to go through just try this one instead:
http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp47-xtras/wp47x.SINBAD.Triangle.html

"Then he pulled away because her heart would always belong to another and his always to the Pearl."

This just makes me mad....Jack's heart does not belong to the Pearl....that's just plum silly. Did he seem all that upset at the end of AWE when yet again his ship is missing....not really.....

I'm not fussing at you PirateGirl....I'm just mad at this interpretation. I don't see that as any better than what we got.

And I was thinking....everyone says that Will was Liz's first love, but in acutality it was Jack. At the beginning at POTC she is a young 13 year old girl daydreaming about Pirates..I have no doubt that at this point and time she had already heard stories of Jack Sparrow...and probably had a big crush on him, just like the youngs girls have on Johnny Depp....so, and she always thought it would be exciting to meet a Pirate....and when Liz and Will first meet...do we really get the feel that she has finally met a dangerous and exciting Pirate? NO! Not until she meets Jack on that fateful day in Port Royal do we get the feeling that at last she has met a dangerous and exciting Pirate!

Ugggghhhhh.......sorry for the rant......

I have to say, I read nothing about POTC in the links posted. If they say anywhere that Jack's heart belongs to the Pearl, they've misread their own character and double-backed on something core to his character all along. Jack loves his freedom. The whole reason I think the island scene in COTBP was mercifully kept in is that we got a glimpse of why the Pearl means so much to him. It's his freedom. He can be his own man on it. Of course he loves the Pearl, but it's not what his heart belongs to. In fact, in DMC, he wants to abandon the Pearl because it's not his freedom anymore. Talk about a development never fully explored. Johnny Depp has said on multiple occasions that Jack puts so much into material things (the Pearl, his hat) because he has a hard time opening up to people. So for him to open up to Elizabeth as he does is far too intriguing.

Will is Elizabeth's first love? Again, we don't get to see any of that. We see them meet and all of a sudden Elizabeth is happy to see Will in her living room. I'm happy to see my dog when I come home, but she's not my love. I figured Will was going to have to win her heart in some way since the film gave no indication Elizabeth even liked Will until she said her last name was Turner. And then after Will admits his love and they decide to become a couple, we see no progression of their love until their wedding day? How can we believe in a couple we never see interacting?

Oh, and I think it's a little presumptuous for T or T (whichever) to have a whole website where they rant about what make movies successful. Yes, they're successful, but no more so than other screenwriters. And a lot of their movies only do marginally well. POTC and Shrek were probably the big movies they made.

okay, i came here...and i aint reading all that😛^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Will is Elizabeth's first love? Again, we don't get to see any of that. We see them meet and all of a sudden Elizabeth is happy to see Will in her living room. I figured Will was going to have to win her heart in some way since the film gave no indication Elizabeth even liked Will until she said her last name was Turner. And then after Will admits his love and they decide to become a couple, we see no progression of their love until their wedding day? How can we believe in a couple we never see interacting?

spot on willo 🙂

i have said time and time again that sparrabeth are the audiences love story. We saw them interact for the very first time, and we saw jack saver her from the water (as the hero/main man/love interest always does at the beginning of a film!!).

At the end of the day it is jack and liz that we have seen develop emotionally the most, because they have developed together.

Is it just me, or was there only jack, liz and norrie who actually had character growth that the audience could actually see??

Now, I won't go that far. Will developed, just not to as striking a level as some of the others. He'll always be a nerd, but he grew a pair as the movies went on. He wore buckle shoes, couldn't call Elizabeth "Elizabeth" and wanted to just fight anyone who said something he didn't like. In DMC he matured a little, seemed to know how to deal with everyone better and I think (although I may not have done the same) it took a lot of guts to look out for the dad that left you. And by AWE, he was a pirate along with the rest of them, negotiating his way with Beckett and Davy of all people and finally got his own ship, although not in the way he wanted, so I won't say he didn't develop. I just don't think enough was invested into his relationship with Elizabeth to make the audience interested. Critics called their love story wooden of all things. The time between COTBP and DMC is probably the most interesting time of their courtship. We missed out on them dating, Will proposing, sword fight practice...which could have been hot if done well, and all the wedding plans amid Liz's dad who didn't approve of them together in the first place because she turned down James "Superhero" Norrington...whose development was just a footnote to T&T.

Originally posted by PirateDiva
I saY Ca-ra-bbe-an! lol...i know thats not how u spell it...but when i say it, it sounds like an "a" instead of an "i"...lol!!

Well said and I think you are possibly the winner for how I ultimately end up saying it--nothing if not lazy in the voweling. Also the vid below, old but cool, addresses just such as we've been discusiing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyjGMS1tZmg

What's next PiDiva darlin'? I'm not feeling any quickening in the seas, but surely you being you, there's a turmoil or two to be had? How's the paper going? Yes, I'm nosy as hell, you sorta knew that already right?

Originally posted by Minie Mina
That is "delciously dramatic", kate. Thank you for posting that video 🙂 <3.

I have a copy of the novel where Jack and Elizabeth attempted to kiss again. It was described as their lips almost brushing....and...ah! It's so beautifuly written. I wish they kept "that" in the movie. At least it doesn't add an implied sex scene with Will and Liz.

OMG! Which part of the story did this attempted kiss take place? I really need to know 'cos I'm seriously addicted to this sparrabeth drug.

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
"Then he pulled away because her heart would always belong to another and his always to the Pearl."

This just makes me mad....Jack's heart does not belong to the Pearl....that's just plum silly. Did he seem all that upset at the end of AWE when yet again his ship is missing....not really.....

I'm not fussing at you PirateGirl....I'm just mad at this interpretation. I don't see that as any better than what we got.

And I was thinking....everyone says that Will was Liz's first love, but in acutality it was Jack. At the beginning at POTC she is a young 13 year old girl daydreaming about Pirates..I have no doubt that at this point and time she had already heard stories of Jack Sparrow...and probably had a big crush on him, just like the youngs girls have on Johnny Depp....so, and she always thought it would be exciting to meet a Pirate....and when Liz and Will first meet...do we really get the feel that she has finally met a dangerous and exciting Pirate? NO! Not until she meets Jack on that fateful day in Port Royal do we get the feeling that at last she has met a dangerous and exciting Pirate!

Ugggghhhhh.......sorry for the rant......

I'm with you in this..Jack said:'She's only aship,mate',so he's not that obsessed by his ship.It doesn't mean freedom to him anymore.
2.Will wasn't her first love.Yes she was charmed by pirates story and certainly head about Jack Sparrow,and was daydreaming about him as young girls do.Yes she might have thought little Will or young William goodlooking,and thinking of him as a pirate.In the first quarter of COTBP when they are adults and meet in the governor's house,they don't seem to be in very close relationship.Sure they might have had a 'distant' kind of 'love' for each other.This is how young loves used to be.When you idealize the other person.when she met the real Jack it must have been an experience for a whole life.Imagine someone saving you from drowning.On the other hand she had to realize during the movie that he's not an idea,he's a real person with faults.I think that in the end of COTBP she wanted Will to be a pirate she canlove,who's noble hearte etc,but I think she thought of Jack alot.She just didn't think it would work between them.In DMC we see her with Jack and when he's around her she fogets about everythin or almost,she's attracted to him.Does a faithful bride behave like that?Sorry for my rambling.These things have been discussed many times.

I Love Sparrabeth!!! 😍

Originally posted by Ditte3
I'm with you in this..Jack said:'She's only aship,mate',so he's not that obsessed by his ship.It doesn't mean freedom to him anymore.
2.Will wasn't her first love.Yes she was charmed by pirates story and certainly head about Jack Sparrow,and was daydreaming about him as young girls do.Yes she might have thought little Will or young William goodlooking,and thinking of him as a pirate.In the first quarter of COTBP when they are adults and meet in the governor's house,they don't seem to be in very close relationship.Sure they might have had a 'distant' kind of 'love' for each other.This is how young loves used to be.When you idealize the other person.when she met the real Jack it must have been an experience for a whole life.Imagine someone saving you from drowning.On the other hand she had to realize during the movie that he's not an idea,he's a real person with faults.I think that in the end of COTBP she wanted Will to be a pirate she canlove,who's noble hearte etc,but I think she thought of Jack alot.She just didn't think it would work between them.In DMC we see her with Jack and when he's around her she fogets about everythin or almost,she's attracted to him.Does a faithful bride behave like that?Sorry for my rambling.These things have been discussed many times.

Wow... that was deep. The ship no longer brings Jack freedom. So, we know from that scene in film 1 that Jack's swann song is freedom... that's what he's after, that's what he craves, that's what drives his actions.

The Pearl, in film 1, represents freedom to him. But by film 2, it begins to represent the consequences of his actions when he basically sold his soul for the ship (sold his soul for freedom...) so it becomes tainted and associated not with being able to escape consequences but with having to pay up. That's not freedom: that's responsibility. So Jack's line, "she's only a ship, mate," isn't so much laying aside his love of freedom (which is also represented by the sea) but of rejecting it's new representation. The Pearl doesn't ever make the transition back to freedom in film 3, i think. Think about what happens on the ship. Jack dies a horrible death, he's stuck in the Locker going crazy on a Pearl he can't get into the water, he's competing with Barbossa for it, and eventually, he loses his chance at immortality on it... not to mention the girl he fancies.

this is getting really long, sorry. what i mean to say here is, the Pearl loses something over the course of the films, and Jack seems quite content to go after the Fountain of Youth in a paddle-boat with a sheet. THe old Jack would have bartered the fountain of youth map to get the Pearl back. or something to that effect. but he doesn't need it now. you almost get the sense he is happy to be all alone, no crew, no Gibbs, just Jack and the sea.

So how does Elizabeth tie into all this? I think, early on, Elizabeth represents the forbidden fruit for Jack (as he does for her, obviously) because she is part of a world he has given up in order to be who he is. Jack had to make certain sacrifices to live the life he wanted, part of which was ever being accepted or allowed into society (even after saving Elizabeth, he's nearly hanged). His instincts still fit with society in a lot of ways though... he saves Elizabeth, there's a lot of times he doesn't kill people when he maybe ought to, even as a pirate, he treats Elizabeth with honor, etc... So, it's not surprising he would find Elizabeth extremely attractive. Something tells me Jack Sparrow never really found satisfaction in the type of women he would get being a pirate in Tortuga. (Also exhibited by his wild affairs with women like Tia.)

Elizabeth represents a different kind of freedom to him: the freedom to be the good man he is without constantly fearing reprisals. Jack's been living in tension since he became a pirate-- wanting to be fierce and badass, but having really noble instincts. He has to squash those instincts... leaving more tension that would put him a constant state of stress. So Elizabeth represents the freedom to allow those instincts to come out, but also not have to grid himself into a rigid society either. She encompasses both worlds. She's a spitfire, but she's essentially trying to do the right thing. She's beautiful, but she's also very capable. She's highly connected to the Port Royal elite, but she's mixed up in a pirate curse. You see where I'm going.

But all that changes with the Kiss and Betrayal at the end of DMC. After walking the line with Jack for 2 films, she finally makes the jump over to the Pirate side: in this case, what that essentially means is, Jack can NO LONGER trust her with his good side. She no longer represents that freedom of being able to let his good nature come out... because he did, and she killed him for it. He calls her pirate... and she no longer represents freedom to him. (Of course, I still think he really admired her as a pirate for what she did, as he says in peas in a pod, he admires a person who is willing to do whatever is necessary... yes, he ABSOLUTELY admires a person like that, but he doesn't want to be around them. Suddenly, SHE embodies the sort of pirate HE will never be able to be... but has been trying to be for 13 years. She has joined the ranks of Barbossa... pirates who are strong enough to betray people to their deaths in order to get what they want. Jack has always wanted to be able to do that but his good instincts got in the way. So he admires Elizabeth, probably wants to be more like her, wishes he could have been strong enough to row away from the Pearl and leave them to their deaths, but he couldn't and he didn't, and she is now beyond him in terms of what she is willing to do as a pirate.)

So I think his romantic attraction for her ends there. Not his physical attraction, or maybe his emotional attraction, but ultimately, she doesn't represent freedom anymore. She is dangerous, she is like Barbossa. You can see in film 3, his behavior towards her is similar to his behavior towards Barbossa: avoiding, with a hint of banter... but mostly you get the feeling Jack is trying to figure out how to deal with them while maintaining his distance.

Would Jack ever nominate a woman he was in love with and planned to woo to be pirate King? Doubtful. The role of Pirate King is like the role of any leader: you are going to have to make major sacrifices of your own beliefs in order to get things done, and probably risk the lives of everyone around you. That's a lot of responsibility and a lot of stress. I don't think Jack ever wanted to be pirate king, and I think making Lizzie pirate king, he was essentially using her because he KNEW what she would do as king, and it would accomplish his own goals at that point. And, as he said at the end of film 2, she is a true pirate, she is capable of making those hard decisions that Jack wouldn't make.

By the end of film 3, Jack has fully embraced the journey he starts at the end of film 2... allowing his good instincts to come out more and more, not in a proud way but in a sort of accepting way. He gives up immortality for Will, maintains the presence of mind to rescue Elizabeth off the ship, and then dutifully protects her honor while sending her off to Will's bed. Why? Because I think he still sees a lot of himself in Elizabeth, and probably sees that she is on a journey that mirrors his. She will eventually re-embrace her good nature as well, and no longer be able to play fast and loose with people's lives to get what she wants. But only if she chooses life with Will. His stoic morality will probably draw her back from her pirate-ness. (let's all be honest, there!) And if that doesn't do it, having a kid and being a mom will.

So Jack is essentially protecting himself. He can't trust Pirate Lizzie, but married-with-child Lizzie he could probably manage without having to constantly watch his back. He's taking down one of his most feared enemies. He's playing things closer to the vest: the point is to win the game, not to enjoy it, for Jack at this point.

Now of course, I don't think Jack's feelings for Elizabeth immediately changed after she killed him. Obviously, our emotions play games with us and aren't really that manageable. Jack is still intensely attracted to her. He fantasizes about her, and is drawn to her. He admires her pirate nature because he wishes he could be like that, in most ways. But, here's the clincher: I think watching what has happened to Elizabeth and her life SINCE her decision to cross over to the pirate side is the thing that FINALLY convinces Jack Sparrow to embrace his better side and not constantly try to fight it. In that respect, there is a deep bond there, but Jack and Elizabeth's relationship takes on the aspect of a meeting of minds at a desert oasis: a few flickering moments of passion, intensity, and connection, but they both continue on separate journeys to separate destinations. Their meeting changes both of them, but they don't leave the oasis together. Which is why most Sparrabethers are able to write cheesy Willabeth fiction about Jack and Elizabeth being competitive, flirtatious friends with ease.

Elizabeth ultimately does what Jack did: She sells her soul for what she wanted. She writes off her future like a blank check to Will and the lifestyle that would inevitably come with him. Just like Jack did for the Pearl years ago.

So, the Pearl eventually lost it's value for Jack. Does Will stand to lose his value to Elizabeth? Probably not, though everyone has their mid or quarter-life crisis. But Will will have to come to represent changing ideals for Elizabeth throughout their life, or it will fall apart. Because like Jack, Elizabeth stands to lose her ideals and change what she wants in life.

Mericful bean soup, Miz Kateloves, WilloftheWisp, Ditte 3, and Freedom (last 6 or so posts), I am digesting above posts and I bow deeply to all for the mental gymnastics you have provided for me this a.m.--thank you all for contributing provocative outlooks/interpretations about our old friends.

Damn, this is sooo cooool. I sorta feel like the routine where the person just answers yes, yes, oh my, never thought of that etc. Wow! forgot who said it, but the bit about Jack avoiding Elisabeth becos she stepped over to the pirate side, umm? That deserves a pile of ruminating. Also, portrait of love (Miz Ditte 3?), history buff in me says contraints of society at that time, ankles were BIG SEXY, so using someone's first name=big juju. Think total opposite of the generation that 'grinds' pelvises on the dance floor in front of God and everybody.

Will is a black and white thinker, I relate--it makes for some really dedicated behavior, might be thought predictable, wooden...Elisabeth names him pirate at the beginning and end of the film, PotC.

Oh, Miz WilloftheWisp, curious agile mind! The year we don't see, now that's a movie! Elisabeth's utter sadness and frustration, how desperately she misses that year and all the contact with Will which she addresses while seated on the stairs with Jack says something fine was happening.

I insist (Sparras please bear with me on this one, at the risk of suffering Will's dis-ease--black and white thinking), Jack and Elisabeth's overt passion (joy of life, deliberate efforts made to form life to one's expectations) is very intriguing. Will has that too unless you believe that Elisabeth and Jack took him on as a "ah, poor, lame Will who has nothing going for him" project. Maybe in PotC, at first, Jack was just wielding the tool (Will) and so didn't really have too much invested in bothering to think about him, but piratistas, Jack values family, he knew William Turner Sr. and somebody Saves Your Life, you gotta feel something for them--and Will is a friend, he's already accepted Jack as such.

Ah, wish you hadn't brought up about the Pearl--I really love Jack's love for the Pearl--so now (lip out, pout city) I have to reconsider--boy, that's going be some thinking through!!

Delightful companions, thank you thank you, and my suggestion for another topic at some point in time--Why it's so farout to hang with like and loving minded folks who never cease to amaze me!!
(*<singsong>*
I am so luc-kee, these posters be so bright,
we can discuss most anything, and it rarely causes a fight.) Ta, dearies, off to form the list by which I can learn. Oh, boy!!

Wow..these are some deep posts, which mine inspired!

So, you all see where I am coming from! Will and Elizabeth is not the love story of POTC...Jack and Elizabeth is...so, taking that into consideration, this was a tragic love story. I don't think Jack and Lizzy felt sorry for Will, I just think it ended the way it did, because T and T lost sight of what this trilogy should have really inspired.

I mean, how are we to believe that Will and Elizabeth are madly inlove...when he can't even call her by her first name...."will, how many times must I ask you to call me by my first name?" "At least once more, Miss Swann"...then she is pissed "Good day, Mr. Turner!"....after that we are to believe that he would be willing to die for her!...."I must ask you this, Mr. Turner, just how far are you willing to go for this girl?"..."I'd die for her!"..."ah, good, no worries, then." (one of my favorite will/jack scenes)......

Jack and Elizabeth we see develop. They meet for the first time...he saves her life! Then she can't seem to keep her eyes off of him....then he uses her to escape...and she calls him "dispicable"...right out of a romance novel!...then he escapes....later that night her housemaid tells her something about having a really trying day and Elizabeth thinks she is talking about Norrington proposing...then when the maid says, "I mean being kidnapped by that Pirate!"...and Elizabeth with a dreamy look on her face as she caresses the pirate medallion "Oh, that, yes, frightening"....(the first time I saw this I truly thought she was thinking about how intriguing Jack was and how it wasn't really frightening at all, but terribly exciting)......

then we have the island scene...where he tells her about the Pearl and they drink rum together, dance and sing.....
then throughout DMC they have moment upon moment of growth, challenging and understanding of each other........

I don't know where I'm going with all this...except to say that Jack and Elizabeth is the real love story of POTC....I'm not sure why she ended up with Will - it will always remain a mystery.

Kate, your explanation of what happened with Jack and his feelings are fascinating...and they are probably right...but I still believe that Jack loves Elizabeth. I don't think he treated her like Barbossa....he was in fact speechless when he sees her for the first time, like he can hardly believe himself. I think he votes her Pirate King because he knows that she and he are alike..and she will act as he would act, thus, accomplishing what Jack really wants......I think he wants Immortality because he can live forever and never be heartbroken or face death again......I believe that he loves Elizabeth but believes that her heart will always belong to Will, thus he has no place in her life, and being the good man that he is....he would never do anything to compromise her honor - or Will's, for that matter.

So, Kate, I do agree in that Jack developed into a person that realizes he has a good side and has learned to accept that good side....the part that he always hated about himself the most......
And Jack's love is not the Pearl...but freedom....Freedom, ultimate Freedom is what Jack loves the most......and he is forever in search of that.
Jack finally realizes in DMC that the Pearl is not freedom for him anymore...that is probably why he isn't all that upset about the Pearl being gone yet again at the end of AWE......Immortality has now become his ticket to freedom.....

Ah, I've just contradicted myself...it's so hard to understand what this trilogy was really all about and What Jack wanted most!

Originally posted by texgodiva2s
Mericful bean soup, Miz Kateloves, WilloftheWisp, Ditte 3, and Freedom (last 6 or so posts), I am digesting above posts and I bow deeply to all for the mental gymnastics you have provided for me this a.m.--thank you all for contributing provocative outlooks/interpretations about our old friends.

Damn, this is sooo cooool. I sorta feel like the routine where the person just answers yes, yes, oh my, never thought of that etc. Wow! forgot who said it, but the bit about Jack avoiding Elisabeth becos she stepped over to the pirate side, umm? That deserves a pile of ruminating. Also, portrait of love (Miz Ditte 3?), history buff in me says contraints of society at that time, ankles were BIG SEXY, so using someone's first name=big juju. Think total opposite of the generation that 'grinds' pelvises on the dance floor in front of God and everybody.

Will is a black and white thinker, I relate--it makes for some really dedicated behavior, might be thought predictable, wooden...Elisabeth names him pirate at the beginning and end of the film, PotC.

Oh, Miz WilloftheWisp, curious agile mind! The year we don't see, now that's a movie! Elisabeth's utter sadness and frustration, how desperately she misses that year and all the contact with Will which she addresses while seated on the stairs with Jack says something fine was happening.

I insist (Sparras please bear with me on this one, at the risk of suffering Will's dis-ease--black and white thinking), Jack and Elisabeth's overt passion (joy of life, deliberate efforts made to form life to one's expectations) is very intriguing. Will has that too unless you believe that Elisabeth and Jack took him on as a "ah, poor, lame Will who has nothing going for him" project. Maybe in PotC, at first, Jack was just wielding the tool (Will) and so didn't really have too much invested in bothering to think about him, but piratistas, Jack values family, he knew William Turner Sr. and somebody Saves Your Life, you gotta feel something for them--and Will is a friend, he's already accepted Jack as such.

Ah, wish you hadn't brought up about the Pearl--I really love Jack's love for the Pearl--so now (lip out, pout city) I have to reconsider--boy, that's going be some thinking through!!

Delightful companions, thank you thank you, and my suggestion for another topic at some point in time--Why it's so farout to hang with like and loving minded folks who never cease to amaze me!!
(*<singsong>*
I am so luc-kee, these posters be so bright,
we can discuss most anything, and it rarely causes a fight.) Ta, dearies, off to form the list by which I can learn. Oh, boy!!

I love to chat with you tex....but my problems with Will and Elizabeth...is that I don't feel that passion between them, I just find there scenes together lifeless...perhaps it was a problem with the actors...just no chemistry...perhaps I would buy into W/E if someone else had played Will Turner...I just don't think Orlando has the right sex appeal..and that is just me...but then again, I'm probably just kidding myself...no one has sex appeal when pitted against Captain jack Sparrow!

And I saw no growth...they went from not being able to call each other by their first name....to getting married.

But like I said, just no excitement or passion or chemistry...just boredom, from where I see it. I really wish I could so I could let go of this madness..I've tried to see the sweetness between w/e...but that's just it...it's just sweet.

Wow. After reading all that, I feel so much better about AWE. Amazing.

"Jack and Elizabeth we see develop. They meet for the first time...he saves her life! Then she can't seem to keep her eyes off of him....then he uses her to escape...and she calls him "dispicable"...right out of a romance novel!...then he escapes....later that night her housemaid tells her something about having a really trying day and Elizabeth thinks she is talking about Norrington proposing...then when the maid says, "I mean being kidnapped by that Pirate!"...and Elizabeth with a dreamy look on her face as she caresses the pirate medallion "Oh, that, yes, frightening"....(the first time I saw this I truly thought she was thinking about how intriguing Jack was and how it wasn't really frightening at all, but terribly exciting)......"----------lovethemtigers

You know, for as short and probably insignificant that scene is, we keep coming back to it. It's our first glimpse into Elizabeth's point of view about all the men in the series. In this short second, we get a sense of what she thinks of James, Jack, and Will. I am almost sure she's reading a pirate book, but I really think she had at least heard of Jack before. She's always loved pirates, so she would know who the infamous ones are. And yet she doesn't consider it the big event that happened that day. She's never been afraid of Jack, never once thought he would actually hurt her. It's like she saw the good man before anyone else did. No. Her main concern is that she's been proposed to by a guy she's not into even though he's probably the best catch she'll ever get. I have a soft spot for all the guys in Liz's life and James probably should have gotten her because I think she would have loved him in time and had adventures with him. But alas, she's thinking of someone else. When the maid suggests it's Will, Elizabeth shuts her up, no longer feeling like confiding in her. So the childhood these two had together, informal enough that they can grow strong feelings for each other, but formal to the point where Will can't even say her name, is another missed opportunity. We don't get to see any development in their relationship, but we do get to see the mixed feelings about James' proposal, and the lasting image Jack has had on her. So I think someone messed up on what should be emphasized.

"Kate, your explanation of what happened with Jack and his feelings are fascinating...and they are probably right...but I still believe that Jack loves Elizabeth. I don't think he treated her like Barbossa....he was in fact speechless when he sees her for the first time, like he can hardly believe himself. I think he votes her Pirate King because he knows that she and he are alike..and she will act as he would act, thus, accomplishing what Jack really wants......I think he wants Immortality because he can live forever and never be heartbroken or face death again......I believe that he loves Elizabeth but believes that her heart will always belong to Will, thus he has no place in her life, and being the good man that he is....he would never do anything to compromise her honor - or Will's, for that matter."--------lovethemtigers

First, great analysis, Kate, very in-depth and I'm sure a lot of it is right. However, I need to agree with lovethemtigers here. Yes, voting someone the pirate king means that person will have to make a lot of difficult, mature decisions and make great sacrifices. All leadership positions come with that. But desperate times call for desperate measures and I don't think Jack was thinking, "gee if Lizzie is the pirate king, she's going to lose even more of her soul and become more heartless than Barbossa." Their lives are all at stake, and Elizabeth has already made her plan known: she would rather fight to the death than not try at all...something that shows her noble side isn't as gone as you might think. Jack also wants to fight. That is uncharacteristic of Jack, but when cornered, he puts up a hell of a fight. So they are the only two in the room with the same mindset, the same goal. So he votes for her. Yes, he's using her because what she wants is what he wants, but I think he's willing to help her. He's always supported her throughout the series and I don't think he would set her up for failure or put her in a position where she would be helpless. Jack knows she's tough and can do a good job, but he's going to be a proactive follower here. He's all set to put the differences in their relationship aside so they can both live. Yeah, she's made her choice. He's not blind. He knows why she left him to die. She left him for Will and that's why he's able to forgive her at all. She didn't betray him out of greed or ambition like Barbossa did. She betrayed him for love.

I have felt that Jack voted for Elisabeth becos he knows her so well, like, well, I used to play backgammon a lot and I had this one friend and I knew if I did a, she would do be...that's what I feel about Jack's king vote--he was anticipating her doing parlay--even read up on it in the code. He needed parlay (closeness to Davy Jones?), I don't know?

Miz LovesTT, if you don't see you don't see it, nuff said. I am by nature more comfortable with my intuitive self, my feeling self and I know this sets the stage for me--don't think you are against anyone, when you reach into the W/E box, it's just empty. Life's funny like that, innuit? Still makes the world go round all we know and share--that's good.

Originally posted by willofthewisp

First, great analysis, Kate, very in-depth and I'm sure a lot of it is right. However, I need to agree with lovethemtigers here. Yes, voting someone the pirate king means that person will have to make a lot of difficult, mature decisions and make great sacrifices. All leadership positions come with that. But desperate times call for desperate measures and I don't think Jack was thinking, "gee if Lizzie is the pirate king, she's going to lose even more of her soul and become more heartless than Barbossa." Their lives are all at stake, and Elizabeth has already made her plan known: she would rather fight to the death than not try at all...something that shows her noble side isn't as gone as you might think. Jack also wants to fight. That is uncharacteristic of Jack, but when cornered, he puts up a hell of a fight. So they are the only two in the room with the same mindset, the same goal. So he votes for her. Yes, he's using her because what she wants is what he wants, but I think he's willing to help her. He's always supported her throughout the series and I don't think he would set her up for failure or put her in a position where she would be helpless. Jack knows she's tough and can do a good job, but he's going to be a proactive follower here. He's all set to put the differences in their relationship aside so they can both live. Yeah, she's made her choice. He's not blind. He knows why she left him to die. She left him for Will and that's why he's able to forgive her at all. She didn't betray him out of greed or ambition like Barbossa did. She betrayed him for love.

Hmmm... I see where you are going with that, but I think I disagree. Which is fun for a change, I guess. 😉 haha. I think Elizabeth's actions in film 3 didn't all add up, for one. Case in point: the scene in the cabin of the Interceptor in film 1: Will and Liz have a moment of tension, she runs upstairs and avoids resolution. Similar scene on the way to the locker in film 3, Will and Liz are having a fight below deck, and she ducks away from him and runs upstairs instead of working it out. What does this show me? Elizabeth's character has not developed since film 1, and their relationship has not strengthened since film 1 at all either. They have no framework for conflict or resolution. It's hair-pullingly frustrating that she doesn't say to him, "I don't love Jack, I love you, get over this!" in that scene. Ultimately, it's not believable for me. So right off the bat, Elizabeth's character seems to have regressed to some previous point, and I have a difficult time identifying with her or understanding why she seems to make the situation much more complicated that it needed to be. I don't get her at all in film 3: she seems harsh, bitter, unnaturally quiet, and cut off from everyone. I think she smiles 3 times in the whole movie. Obviously, you can make all the arguments about how everyone she loves has died, etc, but she seems to put herself in the position of being an enemy to everyone until the point where Will dies.

Sorry for that ramble, but I still hold that Jack was using Lizzie when he made her Pirate King---not to try and hurt her by any means, but because he knew she would want to go to war and he didn't want that responsibility. And of course, he's maybe the cleverest one in the series. (cleverest- is that a word??)

Which leads me to another big question... what the heck is up with Lizzie trading Jack during the scene with the electric guitar? What are they all hoping to gain by that switch? Will is still a traitor, Jack is still in debt to Jones, Lizzie is wearing the most ridiculous hat ever made, and why does Jack suddenly decide to go along with the trade off? This may be more of a plot question than a character question. I just don't get it. 🙂