Colossus wins. no doubt. the proof is right here...
Originally posted by Zahit
Colossus wins. no doubt. the proof is right here...
nonsense... I gotcher "proof"
right here..
Originally posted by Zahit
Colossus wins. no doubt. the proof is right here...
Strange, I adressed these points, but my post didn't come up.. Again then.
no proof:
you don't see wolverine hitting anything.
he CAN punch a door to pulp anyways, he's hurt characters with punches and kicks that have durability well over titanium.
it could have been energy blasts for all you know
it could have been artist interpretation since logan is said to be slicing the door away..-
Cyclops states that he's coming through the titanium door like it were paper. Not slicing it. And, it sure did take him a long time to slice through it 🙄 Besides, use some common sense here. If Wolverine was slicing it, how come X-man was able to hold it together. And since when did Deathverine have concussive blasts? He only showed electro magnetic blasts against the Black bird & Colossus.
Isn't Wolverine a class 7 martial artist? don't you think he can make his punches hurt? Not like he was making dents into those super powered beings anyway. He just hurt them.
I'm not convinced that it was just the artist's interpation. Do you have clear evidence that Deathverine wasn't enhanced strenght/stat wise?
he punched through concrete walls before...hell he's punched a doppleganger through solid concrete creating a massive crater..... UNDERWATER...
Not like this, this is like 5 ft wide solid conrete/beton wall and he just casually jumps through it while being cloaked. And the second point seems like PIS. That would require a freaking huge strenght. Spider-man esque or more.
He's done it before, during the brood sage, and when mesmero took cyk over.
Cyke wasn't written as powerful as he nowdays is. Besides, he walked straight throughCyke's high intensity, continous blast. That requires high degree of Superstrenght or other wise he would have been thrown back.
He does it many times during the arc, he even block some blast with his mere hands. Don't you think Cyke's blasts are >>>>> Wolverine's arm strenght?
tk failsafes...
In the issue where they find out who Death is, Jean's Tk works on him before the explosion. How do you explain that?
he didn't "destroy" anything... he hurt hulk enough to make hulk let go....
cap's used pressure points on hulk
kicked the wind out of him
hell wolverine without admantium punched hulk in the groin to GREAT effect.. would you argue that they were also all enhanced?
Uh, Hulk tilts his head backwards and bleeds like hell. His healing factor was working during the fight as the wound on his back disappears and doens't even bleed during the fight. Wolverine also dropkicks hulk to the ground in the beginning of the issue. Normal Wolverine wouldn't be able to do that.
Besides, a lot stronger people than Wolverine have hit Hulk in the face without any similiar effects.
Uh, didn't Wolverine stab Hulk to the groin? What issue are you talking about? Doesn't Hulk throw Wolverine straight up after Wolverine hits him in the nuts?
done that with plane crashes as well....
did it when the blackbird crashed in EOTS.
did it when the x-men tangled with the shiar empire the first time as well.
Wasn't that plane crash retconned? did he recover from all those in seconds? No visual harm done, nada? And plane crashes don't equal to huge selfdestruct mechanisms.
bone claw wolverine went after storm while she pounded on him with hurricane winds, by her own admission, everything she could conjure.. he still came at her.
That was PIS/jobbing/A very low end feat for Storm. She doesn't have problems engulfing Hulk in her storms. Suddenly she can't do that to Wolverine? 🙄
Imagine the strongest wind there is, now imagine a guy hovering the air throwing 80Kgs through those winds without the winds altering the path of the object AT ALL. Sounds reasonable? NOT.
I'm still onot convinced and I STILL have yet to see anything stated to prove he was enhanced..
I has yet to see anything stated to prove that he wasn't enhanced. I'm not saying it's 100% certain that Wolverine was enhanced, but it's very likely. It would explain a lot.
- Wolverine isn't bothered by a full attack from Rogue. He doesn't even move a lot. Only slightly. A full blow from Colossus to the back, doesn't even bother him.
- He uses some kind of charged punch to KO Colossus' brother. (Yellow glow, again)
- He Kos Rogue with an attack (I'm not entirely sure what it is, might be a small bomb, or not) Either it's a hit or, a big boom depending on how you look at the scene.
- when Wolverine escapes from the institution, there's a hole in the very thick wall, and it isn't made by bladed weaponary from the looks of it.
- Cable states that he's trying as hard as he can (Meeleing Death) , but Death's armor is way too strong.
Originally posted by Jyppe
Cyclops states that he's coming through the titanium door like it were paper. Not slicing it. And, it sure did take him a long time to slice through it 🙄 Besides, use some common sense here. If Wolverine was slicing it, how come X-man was able to hold it together. And since when did Deathverine have concussive blasts? He only showed electro magnetic blasts against the Black bird & Colossus.
I'm 75% sure that cyk stated that wolverine is slicing or shredding through the wall.
and common says says that x-man really WASN'T able to hold the wall together which is why so many people have a problem with that feat. 😬
Originally posted by Jyppe
Isn't Wolverine a class 7 martial artist? don't you think he can make his punches hurt? Not like he was making dents into those super powered beings anyway. He just hurt them.
Originally posted by Jyppe
I'm not convinced that it was just the artist's interpation. Do you have clear evidence that Deathverine wasn't enhanced strenght/stat wise?
Originally posted by Jyppe
Not like this, this is like 5 ft wide solid conrete/beton wall and he just casually jumps through it while being cloaked. And the second point seems like PIS. That would require a freaking huge strenght. Spider-man esque or more.
So again we've come full circle...
see here's the thing if Deathwolverine is what wolverine stated that he was: basically wolverine but unleashed the sum totality of his rage... then PIS is nothing more than an excuse here..
If it helps you deathwolverine is most likely PIS wolverine.. so PIS wolverine feats SHOULD account for something here.. if we're trying to prove that deathwolverine was DEFINITELY enhanced beyond his counterpart, we need conclusive evidence, if wolverine has done similar feats then that evidence doesn't count for much.
Originally posted by Jyppe
Cyke wasn't written as powerful as he nowdays is. Besides, he walked straight throughCyke's high intensity, continous blast. That requires high degree of Superstrenght or other wise he would have been thrown back.
He does it many times during the arc, he even block some blast with his mere hands. Don't you think Cyke's blasts are >>>>> Wolverine's arm strenght?
wclassic x-men 17 wolverine takes full powered shots from half the x-men then he gets nailed by collosus and banshee and then collosus again before cyclops start pouring optic blast on him.. he's still on his feat.
Originally posted by Jyppe
In the issue where they find out who Death is, Jean's Tk works on him before the explosion. How do you explain that?
Originally posted by Jyppe
Uh, Hulk tilts his head backwards and bleeds like hell. His healing factor was working during the fight as the wound on his back disappears and doens't even bleed during the fight. Wolverine also dropkicks hulk to the ground in the beginning of the issue. Normal Wolverine wouldn't be able to do that.
Originally posted by Jyppeand a lot weaker/durable people have hit him and registered.. him hurting hulk doesn't conclusively prove he was enhanced.
Besides, a lot stronger people than Wolverine have hit Hulk in the face without any similiar effects.
Originally posted by Jyppesure if you think bone claws can peirce hulk's skin..
Uh, didn't Wolverine stab Hulk to the groin? What issue are you talking about? Doesn't Hulk throw Wolverine straight up after Wolverine hits him in the nuts?
Originally posted by Jyppenot to my knowledge.
Wasn't that plane crash retconned? did he recover from all those in seconds? No visual harm done, nada? And plane crashes don't equal to huge selfdestruct mechanisms.
and poor examples don't equate to wolverine being enhanced.. but here we are.
Originally posted by Jyppe
That was PIS/jobbing/A very low end feat for Storm. She doesn't have problems engulfing Hulk in her storms. Suddenly she can't do that to Wolverine? 🙄 .
again if you're going to call the events where a regular wolverine DOES do these feats PIS then I see no more reason to continue this argument..
"if I don't like it, it doesn't count"
in spite of the that fact that these high end showings for wolverine are EXACLTY the point I'm trying to make.. deathwolverine was high end feat wolverine for all intents and purposes... not enhanced.. or perhaps all the other characters suffered from low end showings in order to make a chaeracter appear menacing.. in any case everything deathwolverine did was replicated or reproduced in one way shape or form by normal wolverine.. so now we're at an impass.. I've stated my peace, and you say PIS.. you kill the points before they're even made while you miss the point completely.
I'll simply say what I said before, until it's STATED, I'm not convinced wolverine was enhanced.
Those blasts are what I was reffering to..I'm 75% sure that cyk stated that wolverine is slicing or shredding through the wall.
and common says says that x-man really WASN'T able to hold the wall together which is why so many people have a problem with that feat.
But his blasts weren't concussive in nature. And they would have penetrated the door, as they easily traveled through Black Bird's armor.
Cyke states soemthing along the lines "The door's reinforced titanium, and he's coming through it as if it were paper" My book is translated into finnish though, but if you insist, i'll Download the issue and I'll post the scan.
Art & Cyke's statement backs up the claim that he was indeed coming through it.
again, if their durability is >>> steel then wolverine ability to do damage has be be > steel as well.. being a class 7 martial artist helps with that but thanks to his admantium he doesn't have to train to have superior condidtioning..
Weak spots, pressure point strikes. etc. Why do you think Gamora was able to one shot Thing? Mantis was able to one shot Thor?
you can't prove a negative.
But you can prove me wrong. Can't you?
So again we've come full circle...see here's the thing if Deathwolverine is what wolverine stated that he was: basically wolverine but unleashed the sum totality of his rage... then PIS is nothing more than an excuse here..
If it helps you deathwolverine is most likely PIS wolverine.. so PIS wolverine feats SHOULD account for something here.. if we're trying to prove that deathwolverine was DEFINITELY enhanced beyond his counterpart, we need conclusive evidence, if wolverine has done similar feats then that evidence doesn't count for much.
But the point is, I don't want to belive in PIS if it can be explained by some means. Even if it happened off panel. If Wolverine is your favourite character (one of them..?) why do you want to mark some of his explainable feats as PIS?
IMO it's not that far fetched. Apoc did increase the physical strenght of his servants. Hulk, Caliban, (certainly enhanced Angel by some means as suggested in the inferno saga)
usually? yes.. in that instance? no.
because of upgrades? nah...
wclassic x-men 17 wolverine takes full powered shots from half the x-men then he gets nailed by collosus and banshee and then collosus again before cyclops start pouring optic blast on him.. he's still on his feat.
Got scans? was Cyke blood lusted?
I saw jean attempting to use Tk but I don't see it WOKRING.. proof?
IMO shes already using it, but doesn't look like wolverine is trying to resist it.
Dont' know what the hell you're talking about here.. there was one small steam of blood it wasn't coming out "like hell" has you've stated.
Well, not as much as in some horror movies, but a lot. Indicating his nose was damaged. There's quite a bit on Wolverine's forehead too.
I've had my nose broken once during a kickboxing tournament and it didn't start pouring that bad immediately, after a 30 secs of so it really startted to pour from my nose. Too bad I don't have ridiculous healing factor.
And I'm also aware that it's not wise to compare events happening in real life to comic book events.
and he dropkicked hulk from behind.. don't know where you've come up with the notion that wolverine can't knock hulk over though.. he did it in his first appearance, he did it again in hulk 454 and again, and again in six hours...
He kicked Hulk to his knees basicly, I don't think the other similiar feats are quite like this one. Hulk was on a huge smashing tournament in the woods and then he's suddenly drop kicked down..
And Yes, I doubt Wolverine can knock Hulk down if "regular" Wolverine isn't knocked down by high intensity optic blast assault from Cyke 🙄
sure if you think bone claws can peirce hulk's skin..
and yeah hulk threw him but he was still hurtin.
Use some sense here, do you really think Hulk's balls are as durable as his arm for example? Don't you know how thin the skin of your balls is? Btw, he didn't even bleed, but I bet it will hurt if you're getting 3 sharp objects stuck into your balls, even if they don't pierce your skin.
not to my knowledge.and poor examples don't equate to wolverine being enhanced.. but here we are.
Didn't the recent Wolverine comic retcon it? I remember Grimm22 talking about it and posting a link. The preview of the book said something about explaining some of the ridiculous feats of Wolverine's. Like how he survived the crash. IMO it was retconned that it took longer than the panels suggest.
You still haven't proven some of "poor" examples wrong.
again if you're going to call the events where a regular wolverine DOES do these feats PIS then I see no more reason to continue this argument..
"if I don't like it, it doesn't count"
in spite of the that fact that these high end showings for wolverine are EXACLTY the point I'm trying to make.. deathwolverine was high end feat wolverine for all intents and purposes... not enhanced.. or perhaps all the other characters suffered from low end showings in order to make a chaeracter appear menacing.. in any case everything deathwolverine did was replicated or reproduced in one way shape or form by normal wolverine.. so now we're at an impass.. I've stated my peace, and you say PIS.. you kill the points before they're even made while you miss the point completely.
Kinda like Wolverine fans run around saying "that was old feat!11 he waznt written as he nowdays iz" And, like you said before. Who know's wether Storm was jobbing, do you have 100% proof that she was trying all she could against Wolverine? Against a team mate? I doubt it.
I'll simply say what I said before, until it's STATED, I'm not convinced wolverine was enhanced.
Are you saying it's 100% sure that Wolverine wasn't enhanced by anyway? You can never be 100% sure about anything. Especially about as likely thing as this.
We just have to agree to disagree, because I think neither one of us will chance our views.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I still don't see non-enhanced Wolverine being able to just walk through near-full blast of Cyke's and Jean's all-out telekinetic assault.And in Classic X-Men #17 X-Men are not fighting to full potential, Wolverine himself states this....
Do you happen to have the deathverine issue in finnish? Please tell me that your book also has Cyke saying something along "What, that's titanium and he's coming through it like it were paper"?
Originally posted by Jyppe
Damnit, I got the english book and CYKE DOES say that he's slicing through the door as if it were paper... My finnish book has Cyke say that he's coming through it as if it were paper.One could ponder what "slice" means in this context, but I guess I have to yield.
pffft, of coarse it does, just like I said that it did, it's like you think I was lying or something for my own health... 😐
to the crap above:
As I said, I refuse to argue with you on the matter any more due to the hypocritical nature in which you choose to debate..
due to the fact that it was never stated anywhere that death was infact enhanced, and the only time wovlerine ever used the word enhanced, he said that apoc just released what was already there... the only way you can PROVE that he was literally enhanced aside from his tech is through feats.. and comparing them to what wolverine can do...
the problem: if wolverine's already done the things that death has done then it's NOT CONCLUSIVE PROOF.. you can't just call PIS out in this type of debate just because you don't agree with what happened.. otherwise I could likewise say PIS to every high end feat death produced and then we're back at square one. 😕
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I still don't see non-enhanced Wolverine being able to just walk through near-full blast of Cyke's and Jean's all-out telekinetic assault.And in Classic X-Men #17 X-Men are not fighting to full potential, Wolverine himself states this....
and yet a non enhanced wolverine jumped through cyclops' blast without being repelled... he'd have FAR less leverage to keep from being repelled back when grounded but he knew exactly how to ride the beam so that the brunt of it was glancing off of him, damn near like a martial arts block...
in reference to classic 17: there's also mention TWICE that the x-men are hitting him "as hard as they flaimin could" and not pulling their punches..
even if cyclops wasn't 100% wolverine still compares his beam to that of a mountain... regardless, wolverine still stood up to it. without any armor no less.
and jeans tk assault probably wouldn't do much on a guy with TK failsafes.
Originally posted by snoopdogg
That's not really valid. When Wolverine did try to cut him and failed they both were mind controlled and neither have any recollection of the event.
ummm if you're referring to the annual 6 with dracula.. you need to realize that wolverine isn't actually shown to fail.. we know that he scored the armor as stated, so he did leave a mark of some sort.. even so a scraping blow doesn't mean that wolverine can't cut colosus, wolverine's cut characters more durable than colosus, and beat the crap out of someone who was durable enough to liquify colosus metal face with a punch (domina) with nothing but blunt fists.
the fact that wolverine was only raking at colosus and still manages to score it means that a true stab or slash is probably going to be effective.
In uncanny x-men when they encountered doc doom, wolverine was flaoting around an anti grav room, when he started slashing away at the walls it describes that some swings were doing lots of damage, som were just leaving scrapes, and other were doing near no damage at all.. so just because wolverine doesn't get it right on the first try doesn't mean he can't.. I.e. hulk.
Originally posted by jinzin
pffft, of coarse it does, just like I said that it did, it's like you think I was lying or something for my own health... 😐to the crap above:
As I said, I refuse to argue with you on the matter any more due to the hypocritical nature in which you choose to debate..due to the fact that it was never stated anywhere that death was infact enhanced, and the only time wovlerine ever used the word enhanced, he said that apoc just released what was already there... the only way you can PROVE that he was literally enhanced aside from his tech is through feats.. and comparing them to what wolverine can do...
the problem: if wolverine's already done the things that death has done then it's NOT CONCLUSIVE PROOF.. you can't just call PIS out in this type of debate just because you don't agree with what happened.. otherwise I could likewise say PIS to every high end feat death produced and then we're back at square one. 😕
Sure, what ever helps you sleep at night 🙄 😂
All the "enhancement" - excluding adamantium - Wolverine received from Apocalypse seemed to stem directly from his sword and a few other various gadgets; if he had been enhanced physically any way, he still would be now. Wolverine as Death was simply Wolverine not playing with the X-Men kids gloves, he was efficient, he was ruthless and he wasn't holding back for the sake of any unrealistic, naive ideals that normal shackle his abilities.