Originally posted by lil bitchinessAnd I refer to myself as an atheist and an agnostic, and hold views relevant to both perspectives. Websters, wikipedia and the American atheists do not dictate one's views.
Yeah, thats nice, but that is a whole different Michel Foucault philosophy which is unrelated to what we are talking about.These are the group of people, who call themselves Atheists, and who have agreed upon what they believe.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
And you're generalising.
Originally posted by Bardock42
It does not say that in there. That is your take on the definition. It does not state that it is not just a belief and that one can also accept that knowledge is not 100%.It says it is a believe that there is no God and that there can't be? What is your problem with someone also being agnostic?
You can split hairs and second guess it. The deffinition is clear -
Atheism is a doctrine that states that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.
Agnostics do not state anything. They simply do not know.
They do not claim to know if there are other forces. They do not have a DEFFINITION.
They claim no knwoledge.
Originally posted by Lord UrizenYes I would. Because they don't believe in God. Simple isn't it?
Question: Would you call a person who has never even heard of the concept of God, an Athiest ?
Originally posted by Lord UrizenWhich makes them exclusive stances.
Where did I say they were exclusive stances ?All I said was that Atheists and Theists contain conviction towards one side, while Agnostics usually do not.
Originally posted by Lord UrizenNo it ****ing isn't.
However, Atheism is NOT simply the nullification of Theism. It is a belief BASED on Theism.
Originally posted by Lord UrizenYes, yes and yes. Where do you get this from?
Can a person with no exposure to the concept of God be an Athiest, simply because he doesn't beleive in something he NEVER heard of ?
Originally posted by Lord UrizenYou're talking like Atheism is a religion, and always has been, for it to be a religion, it needs a prophet. So my question to you is: Who is the prophet of Atheism?
In order to be Atheist you must have a beleif in no God, after having been made aware of the concept.
Originally posted by Lord UrizenHow cute. Agnosticism is neutral, makes sense.
Let me make it simple since you like to make things more complicated then they have to be:(No) Athiesm----------------GOD--------------------Theism(Yes)
---------------------------Agnosticism------------------------------
-----------------------------(Maybe)--------------------------------
Originally posted by Lord UrizenYou have no idea what Atheism is do you?
Theism and Atheism are both ends of the SAME SPECTRUM which is the concept of God.
Originally posted by Lord UrizenDid you just say it's not an Atheist because it doesn't believe in God?
You cannot be an Athiest if you have never been exposed to the concept of God. For example: A [b]NEW BORN BABY cannot be an Athiest (or Theist for that matter) simply because he or she does not believe in God.[/B]
"A NEW BORN BABY cannot be an Athiest (or Theist for that matter) simply because he or she does not believe in God."
Wow, talk about moronic. 😐
Originally posted by Lord UrizenI ****ing doubt that. 😐 You can't teach Atheism, there's nothing to teach.
Therefore, Athiesm is as much as process of beleif as Theism, and [b]zealotry on the matter can occur on EITHER END. There have been ATHIEST SUMMER CAMPS made for crying out loud ! [/B]
Originally posted by Lord UrizenAtheism less common? Nearly everyone in China is Atheist. Nearly everyone in the UK is Atheist. When have we ever had Atheistic suicide bombers and Atheist camps and Atheist churches? Oh that's right, there's none. And that's a fact.
Atheism is simply less common. So it's zealotry is almost rare. That is all.
Originally posted by Lord UrizenWell done. But please stop, I think it's contageous.
And btw, my whole [b]Athiest typo is an honest mistake, especially considering I type a whole lotta crap at a fast pace. Plus I got this whole "I before E bullshit programmed into my puny brain. [/B]
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Yeah, thats nice, but that is a whole different Michel Foucault philosophy which is unrelated to what we are talking about.These are the group of people, who call themselves Atheists, and who have agreed upon what they believe.
Yes. Believe. Not know. There is the word you are lookign for right there. Believe. They believe it is that way. They do not know. Agnosticism is the belief that knowledge about God can not exist. Atheism do not claim that they know God does not exist.
q.e.d.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes. Believe. Not know. There is the word you are lookign for right there. Believe. They believe it is that way. They do not know. Agnosticism is the belief that knowledge about God can not exist. Atheism do not claim that they know God does not exist.q.e.d.
Sorry my bad. In their deffinition, there is absolutely NO metnion of word 'believe'. None. Just state, NOT believe.
It is my addition. Apologies.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
You can split hairs and second guess it. The deffinition is clear -Atheism is a doctrine that [b]states
that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.Agnostics do not state anything. They simply do not know.
They do not claim to know if there are other forces. They do not have a DEFFINITION.They claim no knwoledge. [/B]
No. Look. It is a beleif. You can belief that the sun is a freaking bowl of cheese. As long as you also beliefe that there can't be any knowledge abotu God you ae an agnostic. By definition. That yaou are an atheist has nothing to do with it.
And Agnostics state that they beleive that they do not know. Never realized that they do? Well, they do.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Sorry my bad. In their deffinition, there is absolutely NO metnion of word 'believe'. None. Just [b]state, NOT believe.It is my addition. Apologies. [/B]
Why apologies? It is a believe. You were right there for one.
Oh man, I can just see it, Ush's going to come and say you got bashed and I'll be banned. I am sad in advance.
Originally posted by Bardock42
No. Look. It is a beleif. You can belief that the sun is a freaking bowl of cheese. As long as you also beliefe that there can't be any knowledge abotu God you ae an agnostic. By definition. That yaou are an atheist has nothing to do with it.And Agnostics state that they beleive that they do not know. Never realized that they do? Well, they do.
They do not use word believe, or belief. It is nowhere within the deffinition.
It is a clear cut, this is this, this is that, deffinition. Re-read it again.
And as someone who is trying to familiarise myself further with Atheism, there is only one impression this deffinition gives me.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Why apologies? It is a believe. You were right there for one.Oh man, I can just see it, Ush's going to come and say you got bashed and I'll be banned. I am sad in advance.
Ok, change the subject. I'll accept you are a non-mainstream version of atheist, and you accept I looked through the internet at mainstream sites...of atheism.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Ok, change the subject. I'll accept you are a non-mainstream version of atheist, and you accept I looked through the internet at mainstream sites...of atheism.
Anyways. If you are saying that Atheists that think they know that God does not exist are just as ridiculous as Theist that think they know that God exists, I agree with you.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
They do not use word believe, or belief. It is nowhere within the deffinition.It is a clear cut, this is this, this is that, deffinition. Re-read it again.
And as someone who is trying to familiarise myself further with Atheism, there is only one impression this deffinition gives me.
As someone who is already familiar with atheism due to being an atheist for well..all of his life, I can tell you 2 things a) that this is a personal definition of this group and b) that even if we would accept it as absolute it does not contradict Agnosticism, which means even American Atheists can be Agnostics if they chose to believe that there can't be knowledge about God.
Originally posted by lord xyz
Yes I would. Because they don't believe in God. Simple isn't it?Which makes them exclusive stances.
No it ****ing isn't.
Yes, yes and yes. Where do you get this from?
You're talking like Atheism is a religion, and always has been, for it to be a religion, it needs a prophet. So my question to you is: Who is the prophet of Atheism?
How cute. Agnosticism is neutral, makes sense.
You have no idea what Atheism is do you?
Did you just say it's not an Atheist because it doesn't believe in God?[b]"A NEW BORN BABY cannot be an Athiest
(or Theist for that matter) simply because he or she does not believe in God."Wow, talk about moronic. 😐
I ****ing doubt that. 😐 You can't teach Atheism, there's nothing to teach.
Atheism less common? Nearly everyone in China is Atheist. Nearly everyone in the UK is Atheist. When have we ever had Atheistic suicide bombers and Atheist camps and Atheist churches? Oh that's right, there's none. And that's a fact.
Well done. But please stop, I think it's contageous. [/B]
It is precisely the opposite of theism, etymologically. The term is defined by theism. To assert otherwise is stupid.
lil B: Do you read the definitions you post? I only wonder because you misspelled definition before and after the quote, which had the correct spelling in it.
1. Atheism at its most basic is a belief that there is no god.
2. Theism at its most basic is a belief that there is a god.
3. Agnosticism at its most basic is a claim that one has no absolute knowledge of the existence of a god or gods, and/or it is not possible to have absolute knowledge.
Neither 1 and 3 nor 2 and 3 are mutually exclusive, no matter how one interprets what the American atheists define as atheism.
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
It is precisely the opposite of theism, etymologically. The term is defined by theism. To assert otherwise is stupid.lil B: Do you read the definitions you post? I only wonder because you misspelled definition before and after the quote, which had the correct spelling in it.
Yes. It is all clearer now. This whole thread.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Anyways. If you are saying that Atheists that think they know that God does not exist are just as ridiculous as Theist that think they know that God exists, I agree with you.
That was the point.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
1. Atheism at its most basic is a belief that there is no god.
2. Theism at its most basic is a belief that there is a god.
3. Agnosticism at its most basic is a claim that one has no absolute knowledge of the existence of a god or gods, and/or it is not possible to have absolute knowledge.Neither 1 and 3 nor 2 and 3 are mutually exclusive, no matter how one interprets what the American atheists define as atheism.
Yes, I agree with you 100% X...
But I do not separate Atheism and Theism as two entirely different things. They are both beliefs based on the concept of God. My other point was that zealotry can spawn as easily in both mindsets, and that in pure Agnosticism zealotry is very very unlikely to form.
It seemed to me before that you were trying to argue that Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a God, not a belief system like Theism is. I disagreed with that point, because , just like you stated yourself right now, Theism at its most basic is the belief that there is a God.
My point is Theism and Atheism are two ends of the same spectrum. I take it you would agree with that.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes, I agree with you 100% X...But I do not separate Atheism and Theism as two entirely different things. They are both beliefs based on the concept of God. My other point was that zealotry can spawn as easily in both mindsets, and that in pure Agnosticism zealotry is very very unlikely to form.
It seemed to me before that you were trying to argue that Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a God, not a belief system like Theism is. I disagreed with that point, because , just like you stated yourself right now, Theism at its most basic is the belief that there is a God.
My point is Theism and Atheism are two ends of the same spectrum. I take it you would agree with that.
Atheism is just as much a belief system as Agnosticism. I agree.