Originally posted by NellinatorWhat would make you think as spirits that we would have the same human physical thoughts as we would here on earth? Spirits of god would be all part of god and would be pure and enlightened. If that would be the case then god would be sending pure enlightened un-evil spirits to hell.
Not really. Some people don't deserve heaven if they want to continue their lifestyles. No just or good God would let a vulgar murderer and rapist troll around in heaven.
Originally posted by Storm
I' m aware of your situation.Disassociated from doctrine, some experience God in all and everything; in the beauty of a flower, or hear it in the voice of a bird, ... And that is all they need.
But that is not all everybody needs. Especially when their are other ways to explain the flower, the birds song. There was a poet who accused Newton, I believe, of destroying the beauty of the rainbow by explaining the science behind it. Now I find science a wonderful and beautiful thing, and don't think the beauty of the flower is at all reduced just because I have a good understanding of botany. Nor to I believe I could appreciate it any more if I attributed supernatural divinity to it somehow. There is more beauty to me in nature and science and human ingenuity then the concept of divinity.
And that is a problem with the Abrahamic God's. The claim that their truth is somehow universal and capable of touching everybody. I see no evidence of this, and that makes me question all claims about it. If this God or that God is incapable of approaching people on an individual basis and addressing their needs when it comes to faith... well, that sounds rather limited in my view.
The fact people convert away from such faiths to any number of other faiths seems to indicate the imperfection in the way of communication. They are finding truth or beauty or understanding at the root of other religions. Yet most faiths operate on the whole "we are the one and only" - so what is God (whichever ones problem) if his message is not bright amongst all the others? If it is a dim thing that does hold some to it, and totally fails to connect with others?
I have done some marketing work, and when a marketing campaign goes bad, fails to draw in the punters, the prospective customers, the people running it are not allowed to say "well, clearly the people are to stupid to see the wonder of what we are trying to tell them" or "well, it wouldn't matter what we did, they will never be receptive" - simply because statistical and practically they are garbage excuses. It is the failure of the campaign designers, their message which is to blame. They aren't connecting with the people. If I was to believe in God I don't see how it is any different. His marketing campaign, run by his followers, is not meeting the needs of many to find faith in his message. And for a God who is so wrapped up in having us follow him, and with so much power to influence, it is remarkable he doesn't appear to do anything for many - followers and non-followers alike.
The problems you mention are not with God, but rather with his followers. God is capable of meeting many personal needs. God is very personal and the Bible very specifically says that Jesus wants to know you. If there was a lack of ability to communicate I would never have converted to Christianity. It is the self-centeredness and hypocrisy of people that prevent God from reaching them because 'Christians' often are an example of what they don't want to be.
On your marketing comments... if God wanted customers coming to meet their wants and then leave, he would market. But that is superficial. God is deeper and wants friendship and love. I don't think you would wear a sandwich board saying that you wanted these things if that was what you were looking for.
Luke 11:29As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. 30For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation. 31The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here. 32The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.
You want God to speak but God asks for Faith... you alone possess that choice.
Re: God should speak up for himself
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
With people like me and everyone else who rejects the concept of Christian-Judeo-Muslim mainstream monotheistic God, doesn't God get sick and tired of us constantly attacking, challenging, questioning, and making fun of him?(Assuming he exists)
There are people who speak on behalf of God. Some intelligent, but some total idiots. However, these "followers" fail to carry out his defense very well, since:
1) They cannot agree on the same subjects, each denomination and religious individual disagrees when it comes to Religious Intepretation.
2) Religious people have not been that successful in convincing Athiests/Agnostics or people of other Faiths that thier God truly exists, and that thier religious reference is truly valid.
The Bible/Quran/Torah cannot speak for themselves. Those things need people to speak for them, and are nothing without the worshippers who carry out the message.
Wouldn't it be a little simpler or more effective if God just spoke to all of us HIMSELF instead of shying away behind alure, mystery, fantasy, and virtual non-existance ?
Why doesn't he just speak up for himself? Why not just [b]PROVE
religious bashers like me WRONG ?TODAY !
God, if you exist, I challenge you to show yourself to me. I am opening my mind ! I am ready....just show me a GLIMPSE of yourself...even if it's just a little suggestion...a sign...anything that could get me to beleive in you once again.
Alright guys....you can not accuse me of being closed minded any further...I am waiting. Let's see if this works ! [/B]
Then the devil took Him into the holy city; and he had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If you are the Son of God throw yourself down. For it is written, 'He will give His angels charge concerning you,' and, 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone." Jesus said to him, "On the other hand it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'" - Matthew 4:5-7
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
But that is not all everybody needs. Especially when their are other ways to explain the flower, the birds song. There was a poet who accused Newton, I believe, of destroying the beauty of the rainbow by explaining the science behind it. Now I find science a wonderful and beautiful thing, and don't think the beauty of the flower is at all reduced just because I have a good understanding of botany. Nor to I believe I could appreciate it any more if I attributed supernatural divinity to it somehow. There is more beauty to me in nature and science and human ingenuity then the concept of divinity.And that is a problem with the Abrahamic God's. The claim that their truth is somehow universal and capable of touching everybody. I see no evidence of this, and that makes me question all claims about it. If this God or that God is incapable of approaching people on an individual basis and addressing their needs when it comes to faith... well, that sounds rather limited in my view.
The fact people convert away from such faiths to any number of other faiths seems to indicate the imperfection in the way of communication. They are finding truth or beauty or understanding at the root of other religions. Yet most faiths operate on the whole "we are the one and only" - so what is God (whichever ones problem) if his message is not bright amongst all the others? If it is a dim thing that does hold some to it, and totally fails to connect with others?
I have done some marketing work, and when a marketing campaign goes bad, fails to draw in the punters, the prospective customers, the people running it are not allowed to say "well, clearly the people are to stupid to see the wonder of what we are trying to tell them" or "well, it wouldn't matter what we did, they will never be receptive" - simply because statistical and practically they are garbage excuses. It is the failure of the campaign designers, their message which is to blame. They aren't connecting with the people. If I was to believe in God I don't see how it is any different. His marketing campaign, run by his followers, is not meeting the needs of many to find faith in his message. And for a God who is so wrapped up in having us follow him, and with so much power to influence, it is remarkable he doesn't appear to do anything for many - followers and non-followers alike.
May I be so bold to answer to a post addressed to Storm.
As far as I can see, Storm said ''disassociated with doctrine'' yet you continue to mention Abrahamic God further in your post.
It seems to me, that for the better part, you do not see, nor attempt to understand idea of God, beyond the doctrine(s) you are vaguely familiar with.
Re: Re: God should speak up for himself
Originally posted by Council#13
Then the devil took Him into the holy city; and he had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If you are the Son of God throw yourself down. For it is written, 'He will give His angels charge concerning you,' and, 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone." Jesus said to him, "On the other hand it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'" - Matthew 4:5-7
Is that a THREAT ?
Re: God should speak up for himself
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
With people like me and everyone else who rejects the concept of Christian-Judeo-Muslim mainstream monotheistic God, doesn't God get sick and tired of us constantly attacking, challenging, questioning, and making fun of him?(Assuming he exists)
There are people who speak on behalf of God. Some intelligent, but some total idiots. However, these "followers" fail to carry out his defense very well, since:
1) They cannot agree on the same subjects, each denomination and religious individual disagrees when it comes to Religious Intepretation.
2) Religious people have not been that successful in convincing Athiests/Agnostics or people of other Faiths that thier God truly exists, and that thier religious reference is truly valid.
The Bible/Quran/Torah cannot speak for themselves. Those things need people to speak for them, and are nothing without the worshippers who carry out the message.
Wouldn't it be a little simpler or more effective if God just spoke to all of us HIMSELF instead of shying away behind alure, mystery, fantasy, and virtual non-existance ?
Why doesn't he just speak up for himself? Why not just [b]PROVE
religious bashers like me WRONG ?TODAY !
God, if you exist, I challenge you to show yourself to me. I am opening my mind ! I am ready....just show me a GLIMPSE of yourself...even if it's just a little suggestion...a sign...anything that could get me to beleive in you once again.
Alright guys....you can not accuse me of being closed minded any further...I am waiting. Let's see if this works ! [/B]
😐
God has shown himself to you just by the fact that you are.