Originally posted by NellinatorThe entire concept of eternal or everlasting punishment hinges primarily on a single verse of Scripture--Matthew 25:46. This is the only place in the entire Bible where we find these two words together AND only in some Bibles. There are over a dozen English translations which do NOT contain the concept of "eternal punishment" on ANY of their pages, NOR the pagan concept of Hell.
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Matthew 15:46
Look at that, hell has eternal punishment. Jesus said it himself. I have posted this for you before, but you choose to be annoying and ignorant to this. Hell is a place of eternal punishment.
The Greek form for "everlasting punishment" in Matthew 25:46 is "kolasin aionion." Kolasin is a noun in the accusative form, singular voice, feminine gender and means "punishment, chastening, correction, to cut-off as in pruning a tree to bare more fruit." "Aionion" is the adjective form of "aion," in the singular form and means "pertaining to an eon or age, an indeterminate period of time." (Note: the two words in many, not all translations become reversed changing the Greek into English.)
"Aionion," as shown above, is the singular form of the adjective of the Greek noun "aion." Many people unfamiliar with the Greek do not realize that the endings of the same word change (inflection) to indicate its mood, case, gender, etc. Therefore, "aionion" may appear with different endings. "Aionion, aioniou, aionios," for example, are all different inflections of the adjective form of the noun "aion."
The noun "aion" in Greek literature has always meant "an indeterminate period of time. It could be as short as the time Jonah spent in the belly of a fish (three days or nights), the length of a man's life, or as long as a very long age.
The Bible speaks of at least 5 "aions" and perhaps many more. If there were "aions" in the past. This must mean that each one of them have ended for they are now past! The New Testament writers spoke of "the present wicked aion" which ended during that very generation. Obviously, it was followed by another "aion"-- the "aion" in which we presently live. If there are "aions" to come, it must mean that this one we live in will also end.
There is a verse which says "the consummation of the aions" showing that each "aion" ends. So how can they be eternal?
There is "the coming eon" (Matt.10:30, Luke 18:30
There is "the present wicked eon" (Gal.1:4)
There is "the oncoming eons (future)(Eph.2:7)
There is "the conclusion of the eon (present) (Mt.13:39,40)
There is "the secret concealed from the eons (past) (Eph.3:9)
Plainly, the Greek word "aion" transliterated "eon" cannot mean "eternal." A study into the Greek of the Biblical period and before will bear this out.
"Aionion" is the adjective of the noun "aion."
Since grammar rules mandate an adjective CANNOT take on a greater force than its noun form, it is evident that "aionion" in any of its adjective forms (ios, ou, on) CANNOT possible mean "everlasting" or anything remotely indicating eternity or unending time.
For example, "hourly" cannot mean "pertaining to days, weeks, months, or years. The word MUST mean "pertaining to an hour." Therefore, "aionion," the adjective form of the noun "aion" which clearly means a period of indeterminate TIME, CANNOT mean, "forever and ever, eternal, everlasting, eternity, etc) or other words which connote timelessness or unending ages.
🙄
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
the bible is full of questionable phrases. like back then, if a man referred to a woman as his companion, that means his wife.
That's not really a questionable phrase though, that is just the contextual use of the word - it actually could mean that in the ancient world.
Re: God should speak up for himself
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
With people like me and everyone else who rejects the concept of Christian-Judeo-Muslim mainstream monotheistic God, doesn't God get sick and tired of us constantly attacking, challenging, questioning, and making fun of him?
I doubt it. I would think that he finds some of it rather amusing. It's kind of like a man with no legs - criticizing the walking ability of a man with legs....He..He..he..
Human criticisms(Demonic as well) have no adverse effect on God, however, I'm certain he does have much empathy with those who don't understand(or reject) the loving nature of his intentions, and truly wishes for all of his children to come back to him. However being all knowing(omniscient) as well as all loving - he understands the contradiction presented when one claims to be loving(by individualizing the concept of love as subjective), and then forcing individuals to be loving to one another.
Originally posted by Lord UrizenThere are people who speak on behalf of God. Some intelligent, but some total idiots. However, these "followers" fail to carry out his defense very well, since:
1) They cannot agree on the same subjects, each denomination and religious individual disagrees when it comes to Religious Intepretation.
2) Religious people have not been that successful in convincing Athiests/Agnostics or people of other Faiths that thier God truly exists, and that thier religious reference is truly valid.
Well first off -- none of them are *idiots* -- however, being sinful -- they of course act very *idiotic* at times. This *idiocy* can mostly be attributed to ignorance, as well as to the nature of sin itself -- and the true *idiot* who introduced it into existence.(For only a true *idiot* would reject a simple principle such as "love one another."😉
Despite all of this *idiocy* going about -- God still remains loving - and regardless of individual interpretation, the "love" that exsists within the scriptures remains the same.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The Bible/Quran/Torah cannot speak for themselves. Those things need people to speak for them, and are nothing without the worshippers who carry out the message.Wouldn't it be a little simpler or more effective if God just spoke to all of us HIMSELF instead of shying away behind alure, mystery, fantasy, and virtual non-existance ?
Why doesn't he just speak up for himself? Why not just PROVE religious bashers like me WRONG ?
God, if you exist, I challenge you to show yourself to me. I am opening my mind ! I am ready....just show me a GLIMPSE of yourself...even if it's just a little suggestion...a sign...anything that could get me to beleive in you once again.
Alright guys....you can not accuse me of being closed minded any further...I am waiting. Let's see if this works !
Ummm..God always speak *for* himself - however, you must realise, that being the limited beings that we are - God attempts to *speak* to us - in a manner that is easily understood. Being a loving God -- he tries to make our communication with him - as simple as possible.
Still - there is also another reason for God to come to us in such a humble manner. To be quite frank -- when he(God) does choose to speak, there will be no interruptions. All arguments(for or against God) will have already been made, and all individual opinions will have already been allowed to be expressed at this time.
Remember Urizen -- that God is patient, slow to anger - and abounding in love, and being such a loving God - he is giving all of us -- an opportunity to "make our case" *for* or *against* him. It's obvious from your many rants within this forum -- that your *case* is not yet finished(as well as the cases for all of those of similar opinions). However -- when we all have signified that it is, I guarantee you that God will indeed speak -- and all will indeed listen. So be very careful in what you ask for Urizen, lest you want God to assume that your case has been completely presented.
Once again, good day to you Urizen. God Bless.
Re: Re: God should speak up for himself
Originally posted by usagi_yojimboNo....it's really not.
I doubt it. I would think that he finds some of it rather amusing. It's kind of like a man with no legs - criticizing the walking ability of a man with legs....He..He..he..
Originally posted by usagi_yojimboOnce again, you are a classic example of someone who pisses off an atheist.
Human criticisms(Demonic as well) have no adverse effect on God, however, I'm certain he does have much empathy with those who don't understand(or reject) the loving nature of his intentions, and truly wishes for all of his children to come back to him. However being all knowing(omniscient) as well as all loving - he understands the contradiction presented when one claims to be loving(by individualizing the concept of love as subjective), and then forcing individuals to be loving to one another.Well first off -- none of them are *idiots* -- however, being sinful -- they of course act very *idiotic* at times. This *idiocy* can mostly be attributed to ignorance, as well as to the nature of sin itself -- and the true *idiot* who introduced it into existence.(For only a true *idiot* would reject a simple principle such as "love one another."😉
Despite all of this *idiocy* going about -- God still remains loving - and regardless of individual interpretation, the "love" that exsists within the scriptures remains the same.
Ummm..God always speak *for* himself - however, you must realise, that being the limited beings that we are - God attempts to *speak* to us - in a manner that is easily understood. Being a loving God -- he tries to make our communication with him - as simple as possible.
Still - there is also another reason for God to come to us in such a humble manner. To be quite frank -- when he(God) does choose to speak, there will be no interruptions. All arguments(for or against God) will have already been made, and all individual opinions will have already been allowed to be expressed at this time.
Remember Urizen -- that God is patient, slow to anger - and abounding in love, and being such a loving God - he is giving all of us -- an opportunity to "make our case" *for* or *against* him. It's obvious from your many rants within this forum -- that your *case* is not yet finished(as well as the cases for all of those of similar opinions). However -- when we all have signified that it is, I guarantee you that God will indeed speak -- and all will indeed listen. So be very careful in what you ask for Urizen, lest you want God to assume that your case has been completely presented.
Once again, good day to you Urizen. God Bless.
Re: Re: God should speak up for himself
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
I doubt it. I would think that he finds some of it rather amusing. It's kind of like a man with no legs - criticizing the walking ability of a man with legs....He..He..he..
This analogy has nothing to do with anything, is pointless like much of the rants I read on these forums. Yes, I am guilty of having my share of pointless rants, but atleast with me, you see it coming. I make it pretty clear when I am serious, and when I'm being goofy.
Here I go thinking you are engaging in serious debate, and then you make an irrelevant, stupid quote like this. ❌
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Human criticisms(Demonic as well) have no adverse effect on God, however, I'm certain he does have much empathy with those who don't understand(or reject) the loving nature of his intentions, and truly wishes for all of his children to come back to him. However being all knowing(omniscient) as well as all loving - he understands the contradiction presented when one claims to be loving(by individualizing the concept of love as subjective), and then forcing individuals to be loving to one another.
If God truly loves us, then any criticism placed on him will hurt his feelings. Christians claim that the only pain God feels is when his children deny him. God seems like a masochist since he makes it SO easy to not beleive in him, you know, not making his existance well known and all...
Having a bunch of Christians tell me that I deserve to go to Hell is hardly what I would call loving.
Creating Hell is hardly what I would call loving as well. A Loving person does not promote torture, especially if its ETERNAL 😆
Your religion, for the most part, is very laughable.
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Well first off -- none of them are *idiots* -- however, being sinful -- they of course act very *idiotic* at times. This *idiocy* can mostly be attributed to ignorance, as well as to the nature of sin itself -- and the true *idiot* who introduced it into existence.(For only a true *idiot* would reject a simple principle such as "love one another."😉
Many Christians, especially in Politics and Middle America are total idiots. For you to claim that ALL Christians are intelligent, wise, and open minded people is a fkn joke.
But then again, many Athiests, Muslims, and people of other Faiths are IDIOTS as well, so lets get off this point.
If only the principle "Love one another" would that simple. We see LESS of that in Christian America, and more of the "GOD HATES F@GS", "YOURE GOING TO HELL" etc. bullshit that many Conservatives try to promote.
Judgement is not Love. Judgement is a form of prejudice.
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Despite all of this *idiocy* going about -- God still remains loving - and regardless of individual interpretation, the "love" that exsists within the scriptures remains the same.
Untrue. First its "eye for an eye", then it's "Turn the other cheek".
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Ummm..God always speak *for* himself - however, you must realise, that being the limited beings that we are - God attempts to *speak* to us - in a manner that is easily understood. Being a loving God -- he tries to make our communication with him - as simple as possible.
God attempts but fails, huh ? Your God seems very limitted to me. How the supposed creator of this Universe couldn't easily communicate with us....instead of being all mysterious, all evanescent in the background of mythology, God can't simply tell us in plain English, spanish, or whatever of his existance, with his OWN Voice ?
The Bible is an incomplete, limitted, self contradicting, non-clear reference for God to "fax" down to us as a means of communication. It fails.
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Still - there is also another reason for God to come to us in such a humble manner. To be quite frank -- when he(God) does choose to speak, there will be no interruptions. All arguments(for or against God) will have already been made, and all individual opinions will have already been allowed to be expressed at this time.
Are you sure ?
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Remember Urizen -- that God is patient, slow to anger - and abounding in love, and being such a loving God - he is giving all of us -- an opportunity to "make our case" *for* or *against* him. It's obvious from your many rants within this forum -- that your *case* is not yet finished(as well as the cases for all of those of similar opinions). However -- when we all have signified that it is, I guarantee you that God will indeed speak -- and all will indeed listen. So be very careful in what you ask for Urizen, lest you want God to assume that your case has been completely presented.
Slow to Anger ?
Unlike what most Christians beleive, that the Universe is only 6000 years old, the Universe is actually billions of years old. Out of billions of years, God seems to display his wrath every millenia or so.
If you compare timeline proportions, even on a cosmic scale, God seems to have a SHORT fuse 😆
Eternal Torture in Hell and the fact that God is planning to have many of his own creations send there, shows how "merciful", "patient", and "loving" your imaginary God is. How laughable.
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Once again, good day to you Urizen. God Bless.
Good Day to You too 🙂
Re: Re: Re: God should speak up for himself
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
This analogy has nothing to do with anything, is pointless like much of the rants I read on these forums. Yes, I am guilty of having my share of pointless rants, but atleast with me, you see it coming. I make it pretty clear when I am serious, and when I'm being goofy.Here I go thinking you are engaging in serious debate, and then you make an irrelevant, stupid quote like this. ❌
As humourous as it may have appeared -- the analogy was actually a very good one. And I think you misunderstood the context of it.
When it comes to your criticisms of God -- you truly have little(or nothing at all) to "stand" on. You are indeed the man with *no legs* The only reason as to why your criticisms even get through - is because he(God) allows them(and because he is loving).
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If God truly loves us, then any criticism placed on him will hurt his feelings. Christians claim that the only pain God feels is when his children deny him. God seems like a masochist since he makes it SO easy to not beleive in him, you know, not making his existance well known and all...
Umm..no. Evidence of his existence is made very well known. All one has to do is look at the universe around them, and there is existence of a *higher power* in everything that makes it up. Quite simply put, and as I've stated to you many times in other threads -- even the *fool* knows that there is a God.
In regards to God's feelings -- I think you are limiting God a bit too much in this area, and again -- not really understanding what I am saying. Certainly he(God) does have feelings - as all of the emotions that we have are definitely derived from him. However, most of what we say of him -- be it for or against, does nothing to effect who he is -- or what he represents. That doesn't mean that he completely disregards the hurtful things that have been said, but the overall effect of what we have said or done - only has a real impact on us, not him.
For if our words could truly hurt God(in the limited human sense) Then man would have achieved much more than he has at this point -- don't you think?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Having a bunch of Christians tell me that I deserve to go to Hell is hardly what I would call loving.
Telling someone of the adverse effects that will happen to them, if they continue leading a sin filled life is very loving. I've been called many things on this forum and in real life(and rightfully so - directly and indirectly) for sinful behaviours. The initial feeling one has about hearing truth is anger -- particularly when they are abruptly confronted by it.
But upon thinking about the *love* behind the presentation of the truth, one stops feeling angry, and develops a sense of happiness, and great love and/or respect for the individual who presented this truth to them. I don't think myself(nor anyone for that matter) would want to continue down a trail that leads to Hell. Most would be extremely grateful of the painful truth presented before them -- before they've experienced a greater pain that can never be taken away.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Creating Hell is hardly what I would call loving as well. A Loving person does not promote torture, especially if its ETERNAL 😆
Of course it is. Should everyone be subject to the unloving behaviour's of others? Of course not. Hell is not just a place of punishment, for those who reject God's love. It is also a way - of allowing those who accept God's love, to experience *true* peace for all eternity. If God let all those who rejected his word -- run rampant and hurt others who accepted it, that would not be very loving. Call it cruel if you wish, but I think it would be more cruel to allow the *unrighteous* to roam about forever - tormenting all of those who truly love the Lord.
So to simplify - there is no true love involved Urizen - without some form of righteousnous encompassing it.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Many Christians, especially in Politics and Middle America are total idiots. For you to claim that ALL Christians are intelligent, wise, and open minded people is a fkn joke.
But then again, many Athiests, Muslims, and people of other Faiths are IDIOTS as well, so lets get off this point.
Well first off-- what do you consider *intelligent*? Can *intelligent* be defined as one studying many wordly books, containing many worldly philosophies, but then missing and/or disregarding obvious evidence presented before them? Should it be defined by one not being well learned in academia - however, having enough "common sense" to understand that a *higher power* exists -- and this *higher power* is loving?
I think the answer to these questions really is a simple one Urizen. All of us, are extremely ignorant and idiotic at times in some area -- particularly when trying to discern the will of God. But it's not the intellect - the ability to debate, or the multiple degrees one has that matters -- it's the intention of the message conveyed to others. Regardless of how intelligent one claims to be, if there is no *love* behind their words, than their opinions carry no more value - than a blind mute.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If only the principle "Love one another" would that simple. We see LESS of that in Christian America, and more of the "GOD HATES F@GS", "YOURE GOING TO HELL" etc. bullshit that many Conservatives try to promote.
The principle of "Love one another" is very simple. It's just that many like to complicate it -- with their own subjective interpretations of what love is. How hard is it to be kind? How hard is it to show mercy? How hard is it to express truth? These things are only difficult to understand or do -- to those who have rejected them.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Judgement is not Love. Judgement is a form of prejudice.
Prejudice is not judgement - it is a form ignorance -- which later leads to willful stupidity. Allowing willful stupidity to continue -- without putting some form of judgement or restriction upon it, would be truly unloving.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Untrue. First its "eye for an eye", then it's "Turn the other cheek".
True. But before you take out your brother's eye, make sure that you can both clearly see your way thru the battle -- with the eyes you have left. For all those who live by the sword, will also end up dying by it.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
God attempts but fails, huh ? Your God seems very limitted to me. How the supposed creator of this Universe couldn't easily communicate with us....instead of being all mysterious, all evanescent in the background of mythology, God can't simply tell us in plain English, spanish, or whatever of his existance, with his OWN Voice ?
Sure he can -- and he does. He uses his voice every day, with the world around us -- and in the bible. God speaks to us all of the time, but unfortunately -- many of us choose not to listen. But he can't force himself upon us, or else it would mess up that whole *free will* and *love* thing. So in his attempts to communicate with us - in order to be loving, he must give us the option to *accept* or *reject* the words we hear.
The rest of your post was either unrelated to the topic presented - or just repetition of what you had previously stated -- so I do not feel a need to respond to it. But again - as I stated before, please remember that at some point -- there will be a time, when he will directly speak to all of us -- without anyone being able to present their opinion of what he has said, so again be very wary of what you ask for, particularly if you have not completed your argument against him.
This is my last post on this topic. Good day to you once again. And God Bless.