Anakin ROTS and Obi-Wan ROTS vs. Darth Maul and Count Dooku

Anakin pwned Dooku badly because he got pissed off. Now as zephiel has clearly pointed out in a previous thread, Anakin would not have become so angry if Dooku's mind games had kept working. The only reason they didnt was because Sidious decided to interfere. Now last time I checked Sidious has no part in this fight, therefore Dooku's taunts and mind games will kepp Anakin temper at bay.

Really? When I watched the battle, it seemed to me that due to Dooku’s anger, Anakin became even more enraged. I would be pretty pissed off to if some old Sith cretin decides to taunt me. Dooku’s Dun Moch would probably more or less enrage Anakin even more, but I doubt it would drastically reduce Anakin’s anger such that he isn’t able to pwn Tyrannus.

The Databank says the following:

“but was unable to overpower Skywalker. Goading the fiery-tempered young man throughout the duel, Dooku thought he had the upper hand until Anakin outmaneuvered him.”

As you can see, even if Sidious interfered (which he really didn’t), Dooku still would lose. Dooku goades Skywalker throughout the fight, yet Skywalker outmanuevers. Therefore, Dooku's Dun Moch doesn't work as you might put it. Now don’t spew bullshit that Dooku won’t be arrogant, because as you can see, even Databank acknowledges that Dooku would be arrogant in a fight against Anakin and hence would lose.

If Maul fights Obi-Wan it will definatly be a long fight. Kenobi is a master of Soresu, which in case you havent noticed is a defencive form. This generally means that Kenobi has to wait for an opening or mistake from Maul before he can capitalise and take the victory. I dont doubt that he can do this and win, its just that it will take an extremely long time to do.
While that is happening Dooku will beat Anakin, just as he was going to do aboard the Invisible Hand before Sidious decided to interfere. If the battle plays out like this, the sith win, albeit with some difficulty

LOL, you don't give up on the fanboyism do you Rampant? First off, just because Kenobi is a master of Soresu doesn't mean he doesn't know any offensive moves. FYI, he does. In addition, he is skilled in Ataru, meaning he can go on the offensive. Please, it will not take a long time. Obi-Wan's Soresu is fast enough to cut down Maul's lightsaber when attacking. In addition Kenobi is better in the Force. Kenobi can probably finish off Maul alone in a max of maybe of two minutes, though it will likely be slightly lower than a minute.

And Dooku < Anakin and so Skywalker helps Kenobi pwn the Zabrak.

If Dooku fights Kenobi, well, to put it simply Kenobi gets pwned. We saw what happened when Dooku finally decided to get seriois in ROTS and eliminate Kenobi, he was out within seconds. Now if Dooku was fighting his hardest from the beginning, there is no reason Dooku couldnt simply do the same thing, only much quicker. Maul will lose to Anakin fairly quickly, although I doubt before Dooku beats Kenobi. Then the sith will double team and beat Skywalker. Again the sith win.

Tell me, read my previous arguments. Pefect positioning for Dooku. Seriously, tell me Rampant, what will Dooku due to pwn Kenobi? Force Lightning, pff yeah that’s sure going to work. Choke, Kenobi gives a Push at Tyrannus and that’s over. Yes, I agree that Tyrannus > Kenobi, but to say due to a single move which was in good positioning for Dooku and could have easily been done to Skywalker (Dooku > Skywalker, fvck no) is absolutely plain bullshit.

Now as zephiel has clearly pointed out in a previous thread, Anakin would not have become so angry if Dooku's mind games had kept working. The only reason they didnt was because Sidious decided to interfere.

Can you please point out to me where in the movie, not the novel, where Palpatine makes any intervention between the two? As far as I recall (and I just watched the scene to make sure), he doesn't say shit except for "Yeah!", and makes little grunts when Kenobi is taken out. The only time he says anything relative to the duel, again in the movie (highest form of canon), is "Good, Anakin, good. Haha. Kill him. Kill him now".

Of course, at which point Dooku had already been on his knees, defeated - severed hands and all - and at Skywalker's mercy. And by the way, Anakin was still described as virtually beating the shit out of Dooku prior to being kicked, after Kenobi is downed, and only lost his edge during the provocation. And after that, since it [Palpatine talking] wasn't shown in the movie (and there's no back-and-forth between other events, it's an uncut duel), the part about Anakin realizing his "fear can be used as a weapon" comes into play seemingly immediately after; he presses the offensive against Dooku, and plainly outmaneuvers him in a mere 12 seconds following their first time engaging blades after the ridicule made by the Count.

Perhaps I may be missing something, but I really didn't hear or see Sidious say anything. And as previously mentioned, it was an uncut duel and after the taunt, it clearly shows Palpatine doing jack except sitting. No words are uttered, nothing. Just to note, by the way, the movie overrides anything and everything that isn't G-level (includes novels, books, even sites) - even if it were multiple sources stating the same thing, it's still wrong. But then again, I'm not firmly behind the position that he didn't say anything (for a reason), merely questioning the actuality of him doing such, as I didn't note him to.

Now having said all of that Darth Maul is stronger than Dooku physically. I would argue Maul is stronger than Anakin too. He's more acrobatic in his fights and also implies martial arts. Mauls lightsaber form:Juyo is like a mixture of Ataru's acrobaticness and Djem's raw power. How can Anakin overpower and tire Maul when Maul is if not physically eqaul, better and he usually duels two jedis at a time. So Maul can clearly keep up with Anakin.

Well at least you agree with me that Anakin > Dooku. Now Maul might be stronger than Anakin in physical strength. But in terms of a lightsaber duel, Anakin draws more kinetic strength against Maul's Juyo. And Anakin's skill with Djem So is simply better than Maul. He can take out Dooku, who's stronger than Maul. While Maul is good and I rate him slightly better than Depa Billaba, I doubt he take out Skywalker for a long ride.

Hey Advent, are we on the same team for once? LOL 😄 😆

Originally posted by General Kenobl
Really? When I watched the battle, it seemed to me that due to Dooku’s anger, Anakin became even more enraged. I would be pretty pissed off to if some old Sith cretin decides to taunt me. Dooku’s Dun Moch would probably more or less enrage Anakin even more, but I doubt it would drastically reduce Anakin’s anger such that he isn’t able to pwn Tyrannus.

Well im sorry, but me and the novel are inclined to disagree. Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. There, clearly stated, it shows us that Dooku's Dun Moch had crippled Anakin on a psychological level. So stop pulling sh*t out of your ass to help your argument.

The Databank says the following:

“but was unable to overpower Skywalker. Goading the fiery-tempered young man throughout the duel, Dooku thought he had the upper hand until Anakin outmaneuvered him.”

Whats your point. Im not arguing the fact that Anakin bet bet, and outduelled him fair and square. What im saying is that Dooku was able to use his taunts and mind games to keep Anakins raw power at bay. The novel also backs me up on this if you care to read it. We all know that it was Anakins raw skill and power that pwned Dooku, therefore it would be logical to assume if Dooku had kept pressing his psychological advantage (without interruption) he would have won.

As you can see, even if Sidious interfered (which he really didn’t), Dooku still would lose. Dooku goades Skywalker throughout the fight, yet Skywalker outmanuevers. Therefore, Dooku's Dun Moch doesn't work as you might put it. Now don’t spew bullshit that Dooku won’t be arrogant, because as you can see, even Databank acknowledges that Dooku would be arrogant in a fight against Anakin and hence would lose.

I think I addressed this point just above. But to recap - Dooku was using his psychological advantage to keep Anakins power at bay and keep the duel in his favour (as clearly shown in the novel). Once Anakin became angry though, Dooku got pwned. So, if Anakin didnt get angry (which he wouldnt have had Sidious not interfered) Dooku would have won.

LOL, you don't give up on the fanboyism do you Rampant? First off, just because Kenobi is a master of Soresu doesn't mean he doesn't know any offensive moves. FYI, he does. In addition, he is skilled in Ataru, meaning he can go on the offensive.

I never said that Obi-Wan didnt have offensive moves, if you had cared to read my post. I said that he practices a defensive form, therefore would wait until the opponent makes a mistake to capitalise from it. We see this done in his duel with Anakin in ROTS - the fight would have been finished in half the time if Kenobi had decided to go on the offensive. He is a devensive fighter and thats how he wins his fights. Yes, he does know Ataru but he is hardly a master of it, if he did decide to use it against Maul or Dooku he would get beaten, simple as that. Dooku describes how easy it was to fight against in the ROTS novel.

Please, it will not take a long time. Obi-Wan's Soresu is fast enough to cut down Maul's lightsaber when attacking. In addition Kenobi is better in the Force. Kenobi can probably finish off Maul alone in a max of maybe of two minutes, though it will likely be slightly lower than a minute.

I think you are grossly underestimating Maul. Obi-Wan would be hard pressed to beat Maul on the best of days, but add in the fact he uses a purely defensive form and you have one long battle. I dont doubt that Kenobi will win, just not as quickly as you seem to think.

And Dooku < Anakin and so Skywalker helps Kenobi pwn the Zabrak.

Yes, unless Dooku can use Dun Moch to supress Anakins emotions, as shown in the novel.

Tell me, read my previous arguments. Pefect positioning for Dooku. Seriously, tell me Rampant, what will Dooku due to pwn Kenobi? Force Lightning, pff yeah that’s sure going to work. Choke, Kenobi gives a Push at Tyrannus and that’s over. Yes, I agree that Tyrannus > Kenobi, but to say due to a single move which was in good positioning for Dooku and could have easily been done to Skywalker (Dooku > Skywalker, fvck no) is absolutely plain bullshit.

What are you saying? Dooku is clearly shown and described to be superior to Obi-Wan in both a blade and with the force. Kenobi was completely pwned in both AOTC and ROTS. Now with Anakin being pre occupied with Maul (therefore not being able to help Kenobi) Dooku will be able to eliminate Obi-Wan even quicker. I really dont see what point you were trying to make.

Rampant, what about the part that states through his taunts his anger grew and despite that, he was in complete control and his mind was clear as a bell, to win, all he had to do was decide...and he did. ???

We've already been through this. Dooku may have got to him by talking shit, but he ultimately got to himself more cause.......HE'S DEAD...WITHOUT A HEAD...DOESN'T NEED A PILLOW ON HIS BED...HE SHOULD OF FLED...HEAR WHAT I SAID?...HE'LL NEVER WED...HE BOYFRIENDS JED AND ZED...thats all i got...

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Rampant, what about the part that states through his taunts his anger grew and despite that, he was in complete control and his mind was clear as a bell, to win, all he had to do was decide...and he did. ???

It doesnt say that does it (I dunno I dont have access to the novel). It states that Dooku's taunts caused Anakin to lose cntrol of his emotions, therefore was struggling to stay alive. After that Sidious intervened and Anakins mind became clear etc. Ony after Sidious decided to interfere did Anakin start pwning.

We've already been through this. Dooku may have got to him by talking shit, but he ultimately got to himself more cause.......HE'S DEAD...WITHOUT A HEAD...DOESN'T NEED A PILLOW ON HIS BED...HE SHOULD OF FLED...HEAR WHAT I SAID?...HE'LL NEVER WED...HE BOYFRIENDS JED AND ZED...thats all i got...

Lol - I think. 😕

as much as you and the dooku lovers😈 hate to hear it, Sidious intervening didn't happen in the movie, isn't canon and therefore didn't happen. I'll find the quote that describes Anakin's mind state. Advent has it and we've both posted it, it's just a matter of finding it.

edit

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
as much as you and the dooku lovers😈 hate to hear it, Sidious intervening didn't happen in the movie, isn't canon and therefore didn't happen. I'll find the quote that describes Anakin's mind state. Advent has it and we've both posted it, it's just a matter of finding it.

Because it didnt show it doesnt mean it didnt happen. Its not contradicting the movie, merely adding on to it. Therefore it is canon, at least thats how I though it worked. Otherwise anything we didnt see on the screen didnt happen. When the scene cuts to Palpatine does that mean Dooku and Anakin stop fighting because we dont see them? The answer is no, definatly not. See what im saying.

no, that'd be a pretty important or significant part of the plot. Why show him saying "Yeah!" but not the turning point of the battle? See what I'm saying?

I dont know, you could well be right. I just thought that because its not contradicting anything in the movie it is canon.

Perhaps GL ddnt add it because he is obsessed with making Dooku as insignificant as possible. I mean he gets a 2 minute duel at the start of the movie. Pathetic. He only gets about 6 lines as well. Bloody Lucas doesnt know good acting when he sees it. 😒

Well im sorry, but me and the novel are inclined to disagree. Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. There, clearly stated, it shows us that Dooku's Dun Moch had crippled Anakin on a psychological level. So stop pulling sh*t out of your ass to help your argument.

And yet even with a taunt, Dooku has failed. You saw the ROTS duel. Dooku cannot keep taunting Anakin all day. The only possible to do so is in a saber lock which won't happen much due to Skywalker continue to thrash Dooku back.

Whats your point. Im not arguing the fact that Anakin bet bet, and outduelled him fair and square. What im saying is that Dooku was able to use his taunts and mind games to keep Anakins raw power at bay. The novel also backs me up on this if you care to read it. We all know that it was Anakins raw skill and power that pwned Dooku, therefore it would be logical to assume if Dooku had kept pressing his psychological advantage (without interruption) he would have won.

WTF? Yes, maybe Dooku can be able to taunt Anakin to death, but hell, he's not going to. As you saw in Revenge of the Sith, Anakin's lightsaber power was able to finish off Tyrannus. In a fight between Dooku and Anakin, Dooku is not going to be able to continuously taunt Anakin. In addition, Dooku will start to get arrogant, believing his taunts are working, and this also play a demise to Tyrannus.

I think I addressed this point just above. But to recap - Dooku was using his psychological advantage to keep Anakins power at bay and keep the duel in his favour (as clearly shown in the novel). Once Anakin became angry though, Dooku got pwned. So, if Anakin didnt get angry (which he wouldnt have had Sidious not interfered) Dooku would have won.

All right. Anakin will get angry in a duel against Dooku. His hard feelings toward Tyrannus and the fact that he's facing someone powerful make him tap into his rage. And even if you say Sidious interfereed, Dooku can never beat Anakin.

I never said that Obi-Wan didnt have offensive moves, if you had cared to read my post. I said that he practices a defensive form, therefore would wait until the opponent makes a mistake to capitalise from it. We see this done in his duel with Anakin in ROTS - the fight would have been finished in half the time if Kenobi had decided to go on the offensive. He is a devensive fighter and thats how he wins his fights. Yes, he does know Ataru but he is hardly a master of it, if he did decide to use it against Maul or Dooku he would get beaten, simple as that. Dooku describes how easy it was to fight against in the ROTS novel.

Did you watch Obi-Wan vs. Grievous? Even if you add the 26 seconds Grievous took to actually engage Kenobi, within a minute Obi-Wan had eliminated two of the General's blades. So if you minus the 26 seconds, Obi-Wan took out two of Grievous's blades within 34 second! Plus, he had the Force. Now I rank Maul on par with Grievous. You saw how easily an enraged Padawan Kenobi cut Maul's saber in half. I hardly doubt that a Padwan Kenobi > ROTS Jedi Master Kenobi.

And please, Anakin was pushing Obi-Wan back. Anakin's power with his Djem So literally stampeded Obi-Wan's Soresu. Dooku's Makashi doesn't generate enough power to push Kenobi's Soresu. Obi-Wan is definately up there to contend against Tyrannus in a battle of lightsabers.

And the Ataru Obi-Wan uses in sparingly but is operated in openings which require offense.

I think you are grossly underestimating Maul. Obi-Wan would be hard pressed to beat Maul on the best of days, but add in the fact he uses a purely defensive form and you have one long battle. I dont doubt that Kenobi will win, just not as quickly as you seem to think.

Hard pressed? Please. I rank Maul on par with GG. Maul was having a good amount of difficulty from Padawan Kenobi. ROTS Kenobi has much more experience with Soresu and he is a good deal stronger with the Force. Maul's double-bladed lightsaber will be cut down by Kenobi in good time and then with one saber he'll last a little bit longer but will die. Again, Kenobi's Soresu doesn't mean he creates extremely long battles. You saw how he was pwning Grievous in ROTS, cutting his blades easily.

Yes, unless Dooku can use Dun Moch to supress Anakins emotions, as shown in the novel.

I just have a comment on this. I don't doubt that Dooku's Dun Moch is powerful, but that comment in the novelization should be an exaggeration. Seriously, a simple taunt destroys Anakin's focus? Bullshit to me. I mean, then Dooku's Dun Moch could hurt Yoda as well if Dooku put a lot of effort into it. The novelization is full of hyperboles and exaggerations, and I believe that sentence you provided is one. Nevertheless, I will accept it.

What are you saying? Dooku is clearly shown and described to be superior to Obi-Wan in both a blade and with the force. Kenobi was completely pwned in both AOTC and ROTS. Now with Anakin being pre occupied with Maul (therefore not being able to help Kenobi) Dooku will be able to eliminate Obi-Wan even quicker. I really dont see what point you were trying to make.

Umm....what? Duh, Dooku is greater than AOTC Obi-Wan. Do you know how powerful Kenobi increased over the war. Dooku's not going to face another AOTC Obi-Wan, he's facing someone who is a good two levels higher. Please, Dooku is not that superior in terms of the blade. Did you see how fast Obi-Wan's Soresu was against Anakin's? I'm not saying Dooku's Makashi isn't greater, but if Obi-Wan vs. Dooku were having a lightsaber fight, it wouldn't at all end quickly. Again, in ROTS, that isn't an accurate description of Dooku will due to Kenobi in a fight against him. It was due to positioning and how things ended up that Dooku knocked Kenobi out.

Perhaps if its so complicated, my basic point is that Dooku > Obi-Wan, but Kenobi will last a good solid minute {and more probably, not that much though} against Dooku.

So Anakin can finish Maul in a good half minute. His simple skill, speed, and strength will overcome the Zabrak Sith Lord. Then the duel above the Invisible Hand happens again where Dooku gets massacred.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I dont know, you could well be right. I just thought that because its not contradicting anything in the movie it is canon.

Perhaps GL ddnt add it because he is obsessed with making Dooku as insignificant as possible. I mean he gets a 2 minute duel at the start of the movie. Pathetic. He only gets about 6 lines as well. Bloody Lucas doesnt know good acting when he sees it. 😒

lol...yea he does....thats why he just killed Dooku right off the bat, just so we wouldnt have to hear him, LOL!

And Rampant, as for your so called sorry excuse for Sidious's intervention, please read Advent's post several posts up.

Originally posted by Advent
What do you mean "Sidious' interjection"? In the movie, Sidious didn't even intervene with a comment until Dooku had already been defeated, and lost both of his hands.

Not according to the novelization. The novelizations, as I am sure you are aware (considering you and Escape used it alot to support your argument) , are considered an elaboration upon the movies. In the novelization, Dooku was taunting and defeating Anakin before Palpatine "betrayed" him and said the "magic words," so to speak.

Excuse me? But please, Count Dooku cannot just go out in the battlefield and do a Kick-Choke-Throw on the duo like he did in the Invisible Hand. Advent and I debated this fiercely , and you cannot just have Dooku jump between them in exact position and do what he did in ROTS.

LMAO!!! Seeing how this IS ROTS, I believe I'll trust the novelization over your petty opinion. Provide an argument. Show me that Kenobi can avoid the attack, or Dooku's force powers when he has clearly not demonstrated it in the novel. The movie makes it look even worse. All Dooku had to do was wave his hand and Kenobi was out cold. Kthx.

And please, he flung Obi-Wan only once.

Easily might I add.

And Anakin can own Maul. He killed Dooku in like what, excuse me, how much: thirty seconds

Anakin can finish off Maul at the maximum of maybe 20 seconds .

I marvel at your proof.

And don't give me BS that Dooku pwns Kenobi while Ani fights maul!!!1111 During my debate with Advent, we came to the consensus of forty seconds.

Well I am glad you came to a consensus... Prove up. Are you basing this soley on the fact he practices Soresu?

the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall

Didn't stop him from being sent flying when Dooku decided to send a "whipcrack of power" on Kenobi.

Forty > Twenty, and eventually Dooku loses like in ROTS.

From faulty premises comes faulty conclusions, as they say.

Now just to say this again: ROTS Duel can happen again. But Anakin will kill of Dooku like he did on the Invisible Hand.

Your entire argument is faulty. Based on the novelization.

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required
Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round
each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could.
Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene.

This is after Anakin decided to jump down and meet him in combat. All it took was a "simple taunt." The count "met the boy's charge easily." He was having "fun," clearly indicating he was toying with Anakin. Provided that Palpatine is no longer their to return the battle back to a "brute force" match (as is implied in a neutral arena, usually), Dooku would have clearly won.

Fact: Anakin's recklessness is what continually makes him lose against more level headed opponents(on the level of the Count and Kenobi). Anakin may be more powerful, but pure power does not mean "better" when mind games and psychological advantages are put into context.

Remember the duel with Yoda? Dooku only used the Force in the beginning and then went on all out lightsaber. Anakin can easily contend or block Dooku's Force moves

He claimed (obviously a claim) their knowledge in the force was "equal," so he decides to enter a duel. Does Anakin's level in the force match Yoda? I'll let you answer that, please, sensible replies this time. Just because Yoda could withstand Dooku's force abilities, does not mean Anakin can contend or block all of Dooku's force moves. Your point is moot.

and he has the speed to quickly engage in a saber fight before it becomes a Force duel.

Even if Anakin has the speed to engage Dooku, the novelization depicts Dooku as using taunts and mingames to suppress Anakin's power, or otherwise distract him. He lulls his opponent into a comprising position via mindgames and then finishes them. It was only by "Palpatine's interference" that Dooku lost.

I concede Dooku > Anakin in terms of the Force, but Dooku cannot just pull out the trump card everytime.

I did not say that force powers were the sole reason that Dooku wins. To claim such would be piss poor logic. Notice how I stated Force powers compounded with taunts and mindgames[i] would be his key to victory? What is up with your reading comprehension.

In ROTS, he was able to do the Kick-Choke-Throw because of how things ended up laying in front of him. Perfect positioning. If this is the reason why people say Dooku >>> Kenobi, BULLSHIT!

Sadly, your claims are complete bullshit.

[i]the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall

If Kenobi decides to go suicidal and attack Dooku while Anakin fights Maul, chances are he'd get stepped on. There was no circumstance, no unfavourable conditions. Dooku decided to get Kenobi out of the battle so he was starting to do it

Then Dooku could have easily done the same to Anakin.

Inasmuch as he wanted to test Anakin, not Kenobi, I doubt that he would have sent a "whipcrack of that power" to hurl and possibly disable Anakin.

Other than that, Obi Wan would not "wtfpwn" Maul if he decided to attack him. Despite either opponent, there would be some fatigue involved.

Maul was stated to be the "greatest Sith Assassin," able to defeat the entirety of the black sun, on his own. He was able to withstand force lighting and continue to easily killing a nightsister. He defeated Qui Gon Jin, Obi Wan's master, and lost due only to his cockiness and arrogance. The battle would be fierce, and Kenobi would be tired if he won, enough so that the Count would not even need to worry about disabling him.

Not according to the novelization.

Obviously, but then again, I don't believe I was basing what I said off the novelization, now was I?

The novelization, as I am sure you are aware, are considered an elaboration upon the movies.

True; although, when they step bounds and depict things clearly not shown in the movie, they are trumped on that case (and that case alone, as discrepancies are dealt with case-by-case).

For example,

"While effortlessly deflecting a rain of blue-streaking cuts from Kenobi, Dooku felt the Force shove the situation table away from the wall and send it hurtling toward his back with astonishing speed; he barely managed to lift himself enough that he could backroll over it instead of having it shatter his spine. " (Revenge of the Sith, Chp. 3)

They can only elaborate so much, they can't make up things that never actually occurred, or if they do, it cannot cross bounds into what the movie is displaying. The above is an example of such a thing that "crosses over", and isn't shown in the movie. So, that's "N" canon.

An example of the opposite would be like Obi-Wan and Yoda's conversation about the so called "B" Team (Agen, Saesee, Fisto), It wasn't shown in the movie as far as I recall, but it doesn't contradict anything and is so considered to be "C" canon.

Sidious' urging Anakin to blood lust was not depicted in the highest form of canon, in fact, no relative dialogue even happened in the duel that was uncut (i.e. no interruptions, no skipping from scene to scene), and we clearly see (or rather don't see) Palpatine not uttering a word other than "Yeah!", and grunting as previously mentioned in my former post.

So, it would seem in this case that the movie > novel regarding Sidious talking shit to Dooku and Anakin. In other words, it didn't happen in the movie, where we actually saw each of the people inclusive of the line(s). This would mean it's an apparent contradiction, and thusly "N" canon.

Of course, I may be missing something in the movie, but from what I see, he clearly says and does nothing. Moreover, in the movie, Count Dooku doesn't show any signs of acknowledgment in regards to what Sidious says in the novel, he only appears shocked by Sidious' imperative sentence at the end.

In the novelization, Dooku was taunting and defeating Anakin before Palpatine "betrayed" him and said the "magic words," so to speak.

As I'm sure you're already aware, the novelizations don't hold superiority for continuity over the movies. Those "magic words" were seemingly never spoken, and the only "betrayal" had happened when Dooku was already at Skywalker's mercy.

(considering you and Escape used it alot to support your argument)

Yes, I use it to support my arguments, as does Escape. However, I only recall us using lines that were shown in the movie, and just elaborated upon (thoughts are thoughts, poetically describing actions are just that, and actions are actions). I'm fairly certain we only use things that aren't ostensibly contradicting; whilst Sidious talking wasn't depicted in the actual movie, things like Anakin gaining strength, Dooku tooling Kenobi, and so on (things I personally use) were.

Actually, that was an iffy explanation at best, but I hope you got the general point.

And that takes care of that.

I don't agree with all that you said. Nothing in that scene which Stover says contradicts the general intent of George Lucas, that Anakin, in terms of "power" is better than Dooku.

The novel does well to elaborate this fact, describing Anakin as a "thermonuclear furnace."

However, Dooku has the psychological advantage and superiour "mental disposition," this is fact. Lucas even agrees with this view. It was Georgies intent that Anakin is reckless, losing many of his battles by this issue alone.

I don't think we can "pick and chose" unless its an outright contradiction, defying completely Lucas' intent, such as say the author stating that "Dooku was defeating Anakin by sheer power alone, losing only by a fluke."

From where I see it, trust me I am trying to be as unbiased as possible, Palpatine's words were an elaboration to Lucas' script, not defying Lucas' intent. There is no reason for it to be excluded from the overall g canon novelization.

Originally posted by zephiel7
I don't agree with all that you said. Nothing which Stover says contradicts the general intent of George Lucas, that Anakin, in terms of "power" is better than Dooku.

The novel does well to elaborate this fact, describing Anakin as a "thermonuclear furnace."

However, Dooku has the psychological advantage and superiour "mental disposition," this is fact. Lucas even agrees with this view. It was Georgies intent that Anakin is reckless, losing many of his battles by this issue alone.

I don't think we can "pick and chose" unless its an outright contradiction, defying completely Lucas' intent, such as say the author stating that "Dooku was defeating Anakin by sheer power alone, losing only by a fluke.

Zephiel, are we then to say - regarding Palpatine:

"And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole in the Force."

As well as:

"Dooku could not argue. Not only had the Dark Lord introduced Dooku to realms of power beyond his most spectacular fantasies, but Sidious was also a political manipulator so subtle that his abilities might be considered to dwarf even the power of the dark side itself."

And, finally:

Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee - four of the greatest swordsman that our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

This is, after all, an elaboration on the movie itself, by your definition. Neither of these things are said or apparent in the movie (much like your quote), but they are there in the novel, verbatim as I have said. If your example applies, then so do these three.