Anakin ROTS and Obi-Wan ROTS vs. Darth Maul and Count Dooku

Originally posted by Gideon
Zephiel, are we then to say - regarding Palpatine:

"And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole in the Force."

As well as:

"Dooku could not argue. Not only had the Dark Lord introduced Dooku to realms of power beyond his most spectacular fantasies, but Sidious was also a political manipulator so subtle that his abilities might be considered to dwarf even the power of the dark side itself."

And, finally:

Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee - four of the greatest swordsman that our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

This is, after all, an elaboration on the movie itself, by your definition. Neither of these things are said or apparent in the movie (much like your quote), but they are there in the novel, verbatim as I have said. If your example applies, then so do these three.

Abosolutely. They work. The first two of these quotes are in Dooku's PoV, it makes sense considering he worshipped the ground Sidious walked on.

The third one is in Obi Wan's PoV. Again, nothing wrong with these. None of these outright contradicts George's intent. If they did, then I would dismiss it as a contradiction to the movie.

Abosolutely. They work. The first two of these quotes are in Dooku's PoV, it makes sense considering he worshipped the ground Sidious walked on.

Guess you missed the part where it said "seen through the eyes of the dark side itself." That wasn't just Dooku, pal.

The third one is in Obi Wan's PoV. Again, nothing wrong with these.

Then, Yoda agreed, that the two of them together had no chance of defeating Sidious in single combat.

Guess you missed the part where it said "seen through the eyes of the dark side itself." That wasn't just Dooku, pal.

Then, Yoda agreed, that the two of them together had no chance of defeating Sidious in single combat.

Does it directly contradict Lucas' intent for ROTS? Ask yourself that. If it does, then it cannot be counted along with the novel as g canon.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Does it directly contradict Lucas' intent for ROTS? Ask yourself that. If it does, then it cannot be counted along with the novel as canon.

You tell me. Lucas's "intent for RotS" was to show that Anakin trumped Dooku through superior power and ability. He all but confirms this in the multiple sources I have listed for you - and the excerpts I showed you.

That, and the line was not said in the movie. As Advent has proven, a contradiction of the movie makes that specific part become non canon. Much like how Yoda disarming Sidious in the script was never put into the movie, nor in the novelization. Thus it isn't canon. Lucas is the topmost part of this 'hierarchy', followed by the movies. Then the scripts and novelization are on equal footing below the movies.

In this case, the line was not made. Thus that part of the novelization is non-canon.

And, to answer your question, I highly doubt he'd have thought that Obi-Wan and Yoda together couldn't match Sidious in single combat. The point is to prove that not everything from the novelization (though a canon source) can be considered canon.

As to the two first quotes regarding Sidious, Lucas has called Palpatine "the ultimate evil in Star Wars", implying he is the most powerful incarnation of evil seen, and the only irredeemable one. So, it is quite possible that it doesn't defy his intent.

Personally, though, while I consider Sidious to be the ultimate manipulator, nothing can dwarf the Force - light side or dark side.

What's exactly stopping Dooku from force choking Obi-Wan and disabling him right off the bat?

And there's little evidence to say that Anakin can cope with a double team from two experienced Sith Lords, let a lone win against.

Vote for the Sith duo.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
What's exactly stopping Dooku from force choking Obi-Wan and disabling him right off the bat?

And there's little evidence to say that Anakin can cope with a double team from two experience Sith Lords, let a lone win against.

Vote for the Sith duo.

Agreed.

Call me crazy, but I don't forsee even RotS Obi-Wan just taking three swings and downing Maul - who is a much more capable warrior and who was "one of the deadliest apprentices ever" according to one of the visual guides. Obi-Wan's defensive form and superior mental tactics would likely allow him to defeat Maul in the end - but if he does win (which I am still not 100% convinced) it wouldn't be extremely easily.

Likewise, Count Dooku's Force powers are too strong for Obi-Wan. But it also depends on the set up. The point is, Anakin will defeat Count Dooku in a lightsaber fight - and I believe in a shorter amount of time it would take for Obi-Wan to defeat Maul. If that happens, Anakin and Obi-Wan team up to annihilate Maul.

But, Dooku wouldn't likely let that happen, so he'd likely put Obi-Wan out of the fight, then he and Maul annihilate Anakin.

Originally posted by Gideon
In this case, the line was not made. Thus that part of the novelization is non-canon.

So it has turned to this... a debate on the nature of what can or cannot be considered canon from the novelization 😄

Well, I am grouping this as your opinion on what is or is not canon. I feel, as long as it does not defy Lucas' intent, that Anakin is more "powerful" (take whatever that means however you will), then it does not contradict the movie's and can be considered G canon. In my opinion, evertyhing put into context (including the psychological), from the novel which is in line with Lucas' intent, I am of the position that Dooku is "better". Again, this includes psychological and mental advantages, not purely physical . I am dealing with power from a different "perspective," mental finesse if you will.

Lucas' intent is aligned with the novelists interpretation on the matter, hence it is canon. Again, unless there is a source like Wallace that confirms that what I said is not true, then I am as entitled to believe it as you are entitled to believe what you hold.

Originally posted by zephiel7
So it has turned to this... a debate on the nature of what can or cannot be considered canon from the novelization 😄

Well, I am grouping this as your opinion on what is or is not canon. I feel, as long as it does not defy Lucas' intent, that Anakin is more "powerful" (take whatever that means however you will), then it does not contradict the movie's and can be considered G canon. In my opinion, evertyhing put into context (including the psychological), from the novel which is in line with Lucas' intent, I am of the position that Dooku is "better". Again, this includes psychological and mental advantages, not purely physical . I am dealing with power from a different "perspective," mental finesse if you will.

Lucas' intent is aligned with the novelists interpretation on the matter, hence it is canon. Again, unless there is a source like Wallace that confirms that what I said is not true, then I am as entitled to believe it as you are entitled to believe what you hold.

Here we have the problem.

Something that contradicts George Lucas or the movies - be it the script, novelization, or EU works - is not completely canon. By that I mean, the specific part in which the contradiction was made, and all events or situations dependant on that contradiction are not canon.

By that, I do not mean slightly altered dialogue, such as: "Dooku is old" as opposed to "Count Dooku was eighty-three standard years of age", but rather major storyline events.

Furthermore, aside from interviews or the commentary, "Lucas's intent" as you call it - isn't exactly public knowledge. He did not say "I want Anakin to be more powerful - but lose due to Dooku's psychological edge" nor is that implied in any article of information that I am aware of.

The line was spoken in the novelization but not the movie. The battle itself was not intercut by any other scene - the line simply did not make its way into the movie. Hence why the novelization is based off of (but not verbatim) the screenplay. And, even then, the final screenplay is not always used as directors and writers have creative influence and can alter the process of the movie, and the storyline.

Because the line was not spoken - and George Lucas credits Anakin's victory to superior power - Palpatine's intervention is not canon. Thus, it is pointless to argue. Count Dooku, obviously, had the overall better state of mind, but that did not help him in the fight.

"Expanding upon the movie" could be construed as something along the lines of Palpatine's audio recording of his duel with Mace Windu (Padme says to Bail that Sidious "has been presenting evidence of the Jedi's betrayal all afternoon"😉, though - even then - the novel's presentation of that isn't canon.

The movie showed this:

Anakin and Obi-Wan forced Dooku on the defensive (unlike their previous battle in Attack of the Clones) off the bat. He Force pushes Obi-Wan out of the fight, and continues on with Anakin - who forces him up the stairs. Whether this was a sign of desperation or simply a smart move on Dooku's part, it is unknown, but it is clear that he can't handle the two of them for a prolonged period of time. His bodyguards fire upon Obi-Wan, who bisects them both. He briefly duels with Obi-Wan and Anakin before kicking Anakin into a wall and putting Obi-Wan out of the fight for good. Anakin seemingly gets pissed off and kicks Dooku off of the balcony, and forces him back. They end up in a saber lock, where Dooku taunts him. Anakin shoves him and forces him back to rest in front of Sidious - where he grabs Dooku's arms and amputates them.

Sidious did not interfere.

If it comes to sabers, Anakin will beat him. Dooku's only chance is that he takes him out with the Force (he is superior to Anakin there). But there isn't anything to suggest that he will or that he won't. Dooku prefers lightsaber combat to Force usage, as does Anakin. His arrogance also plays a part - will he use the Force against Anakin before its too late, or what?

Because the line was not spoken - and George Lucas credits Anakin's victory to superior power - Palpatine's intervention is not canon. Thus, it is pointless to argue. Count Dooku, obviously, had the overall better state of mind, but that did not help him in the fight.

Where are you getting this from? The fact that the line did not make it's way to the movie, does not mean it should be excluded from G canon. As long as it does not interfere with the intent of the movie (that "Anakin is more 'powerful' "😉 what basis are you using to confirm that your position on "what is or is not canon" is any more right than mine?

I know Lucas' intent with his characters, which is really common knowledge here. Anakin is reckless, emotionally unstable; he was defeated by Obi Wan because of his psychological weakness. Dooku possesses the psychological advantage; he is a cool and even headed fencer.

Hence the novelization is working into Lucas' "grand" (😛) design when he wrote that passage, not contradicting it.

I am not contradicting George's intent when I say Dooku has the psychogical advantage, as he, Lee, and Wallace view the book as G canon. Unless it is stated that lines that did not make its way into the movie, but were approved into book, and which are also in line with Lucas' intent, are non canon, I don't see what makes what you say any more correct than what I say.

The novels are considered G canon, hence any lines in the book that are not explicitly placed in the movie but which implies Lucas' concept with the characters in the movies, should also be considered G canon.

This fight is simple: if it's obi-wan versus maul and anakin versus dooku, anakin beats dooku, and after that, he sees obi-wan wining against maul (since he uses soreshu his fight should be longer)

Or, if it's maul against anakin and obi-wan versus count dooku, well, anakin beats maul (maul is agressive, he would probably turn on anakin's agressivity), and them he sees dooku beating or killing obi-wan. Them, he takes the hell of dooku.

In both cases, i think our light side pair wins.

LMAO!!! Seeing how this IS ROTS, I believe I'll trust the novelization over your petty opinion. Provide an argument. Show me that Kenobi can avoid the attack, or Dooku's force powers when he has clearly not demonstrated it in the novel. The movie makes it look even worse. All Dooku had to do was wave his hand and Kenobi was out cold. Kthx.

1.) Seeing how I gave reasoning, I don't know where the hell you came with "petty opinion"?

2.) "Provide an argument"? What the hell? Dooku would first try to do the Force Lightning, fail, and then the two would engage in a lightsaber duel. Dooku will realize that Kenobi's Soresu is hard to break, so he goes for the Force. Here he will do some techniques and finally finish off Obi-Wan. Kenobi's dodges and Force Pushes along with Soresu grants him a total time of survival of anywhere from 40 seconds (Advent agreed to this time even though originally she thought it would be like 13 seconds) to 1 minute 30 seconds (reasonable).

3.) Umm....Dooku kicks Anakin away. He then lifts Kenobi with a Choke, and then swings his hand to complete a Whirlwind on Kenobi. And please, Kenobi's impact on the steel along with a chunk of platform is what knocked him out cold.

4.) Finally, Dooku could have easily done the same manuever on Anakin. Are you saying then that Dooku pwns Anakin? LOL, even though the highest form of canon shows Anakin destroying Tyrannus. Dooku is not going to go and do a random Kick-Choke-Throw. Kenobi definately lasts for a solid amount.

Show me the argument, why it is thirty seconds. Is it pull numbers out of our ass day? I believe it is.

What the hell are talking about? Watch the ROTS Duel kid, and time Anakin's killing of Dooku.

Well I am glad you came to a consensus... Prove up. Are you basing this soley on the fact he practices Soresu?

the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall

Didn't stop him from being sent flying when Dooku decided to send a "whipcrack of power" on Kenobi.

Hardly. The HIGHEST FORM OF CANON shows Dooku clearly sticking his hand forth and Pushing Kenobi some thirty feet away to duel with the droids. The HIGHEST FORM OF CANON never shows Dooku doing a flick and knocking Kenobi away. Dooku doing an apparent Force Push didn't even send "Kenobi flying backward". Are you saying a flick can? LOL!

The HIGHEST FORM OF CANON is of course more accurate than novelizations. The ROTS novelization in addition shows many exaggerations of powers. Dooku being able with a flick of a wrist send Kenobi slamming into the wall should make Dooku a very powerful Sith Lord in terms of Force strength, even greater than Yoda, which is wrong. I'm not going to argue that the quote is an exaggeration, but still.

And so what IF Dooku could do so? Your point? Kenobi's endurance and Soresu along with his Force strength will grant him a good amount of time IF Anakin was to engage Maul.

Your entire argument is faulty. Based on the novelization.

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required
Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round
each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could.
Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene.

This is after Anakin decided to jump down and meet him in combat. All it took was a "simple taunt." The count "met the boy's charge easily." He was having "fun," clearly indicating he was toying with Anakin. Provided that Palpatine is no longer their to return the battle back to a "brute force" match (as is implied in a neutral arena, usually), Dooku would have clearly won.

Fact: Anakin's recklessness is what continually makes him lose against more level headed opponents(on the level of the Count and Kenobi). Anakin may be more powerful, but pure power does not mean "better" when mind games and psychological advantages are put into context.

1.) When did Dooku taunt Anakin? Are you referring all the way back when Dooku was like “Good, the greater the pride, the greater the fall”?, because there was never any dialogue until Dooku and Anakin enter the saber-lock.
2.) Seriously, as Advent has said, when did Palps intervene? He just did some random grunts and noises. He was never like “GO ANAKIN GO! ANGER ANAKIN ANAKIN” until Anakin already had Dooku beat.
3.) From the Star Wars Databank:

“but was unable to overpower Skywalker. Goading the fiery-tempered young man throughout the duel, Dooku thought he had the upper hand until Anakin outmaneuvered him”

Dooku’s arrogance along with Anakin’s skill is what will cause the demise of the Sith Lord. As ROTS shows us, even if Dooku was arrogant, it was his mistake that he lost. He’s not going to be not arrogant in a duel.

In addition, Dooku’s Dun Moch doesn’t quite work out. He goads Anakin, and yet he gets outmanuevered. What about Skywalker losing focus due to a taunt? Well guess what, it doesn’t work. Anakin had Dooku beat.

He claimed (obviously a claim) their knowledge in the force was "equal," so he decides to enter a duel. Does Anakin's level in the force match Yoda? I'll let you answer that, please, sensible replies this time. Just because Yoda could withstand Dooku's force abilities, does not mean Anakin can contend or block all of Dooku's force moves. Your point is moot.

And do you think Yoda was going all out on Dooku in terms of the Force? He was being simply defensive, just knocking stuff out of the way. Yoda has the power to throw back a Senate Pod thrown downwards at him (and accelerating due to Gravity) and propel it upwards even faster than it originally was. Obviously he throw some debris away.

And Dooku's claims are sometime false. In LOE, Dooku says to EU Grievous that Cin Drallig could give you a defeat. Are you saying Cin Drallig > EU Grievous?

And seriously, Dooku's Lightning was blocked by AOTC Obi-Wan. Obviously Anakin can block it. And Dooku throws some debris at Skywalker, Anakin can throw it back or dodge it or cut them up. If the two fought, Anakin wouldn't allow Dooku time to use the Force, he'll unleash his lightsaber and it will go down to a saber duel to the death. Anakin wins.

Even if Anakin has the speed to engage Dooku, the novelization depicts Dooku as using taunts and mingames to suppress Anakin's power, or otherwise distract him. He lulls his opponent into a comprising position via mindgames and then finishes them. It was only by "Palpatine's interference" that Dooku lost.

And yet, these taunts don't seem to work as Anakin still finishes of Dooku. Even with your sorry excuse of Palps intervention (which is bogus by the way), Anakin himself will get frusterated and eventually sucumb to his rage. And don't forget Dooku's arrogance. Dooku thought he had Skywalker, and then he gets owned. Whatever you can say about Dooku doesn't work, Anakin beat him. Nothing else.

I did not say that force powers were the sole reason that Dooku wins. To claim such would be piss poor logic. Notice how I stated Force powers compounded with taunts and mindgames[i] would be his key to victory? What is up with your reading comprehension.

[SIZE=3]AHA!!! Notice how you never came to the thread before until now? I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to Planet. Which means that......you're Planet???[/ SIZE]

Other than that, Obi Wan would not "wtfpwn" Maul if he decided to attack him. Despite either opponent, there would be some fatigue involved.

Maul was stated to be the "greatest Sith Assassin," able to defeat the entirety of the black sun, on his own. He was able to withstand force lighting and continue to easily killing a nightsister. He defeated Qui Gon Jin, Obi Wan's master, and lost due only to his cockiness and arrogance. The battle would be fierce, and Kenobi would be tired if he won, enough so that the Count would not even need to worry about disabling him.

Obi-Wan's Soresu would cut Maul's saber in half. ROTS Kenobi > Angry Padwan Kenobi. Of course Maul would put up a good fight. But Anakin will be fighting Dooku. Anakin finishes off Dooku pretty fast and then help Kenobi wtf pwn Maul. Or Obi-Wan stalls against Dooku and Anakin finishes of Maul and then helps Kenobi finish off the Sith Lord.

Where are you getting this from? The fact that the line did not make it's way to the movie, does not mean it should be excluded from G canon. As long as it does not interfere with the intent of the movie (that "Anakin is more 'powerful' "😉 what basis are you using to confirm that your position on "what is or is not canon" is any more right than mine?

Again, I reiterate, something that directly contradicts the movies or George Lucas in a manner that it significantly changes the event (as in, Skywalker winning due to a fluke and not his skill as Lucas had the scene written out; or Palpatine engineering the fight to allow Anakin win - despite Lucas stating that the outcome was to test which of the two was stronger), then it is not canon.

By virtue of potential, physical strength, and talent with a blade - as well as his overall stamina and raw power - Anakin is more powerful than Count Dooku. I do not doubt that Dooku has the edge in Force combat, but as we've seen, there is a point with Anakin that such an advantage does not matter - Dooku was overwhelmed in that latter portion of that fight. As Advent once said "if he could've, he would've", which seems to make remarkable sense.

Sidious's interference would imply that the fight was deliberately engineered to allow Anakin to win, which, I have proven, is not the case.

I know Lucas' intent with his characters, which is really common knowledge here. Anakin is reckless, emotionally unstable; he was defeated by Obi Wan because of his psychological weakness. Dooku possesses the psychological advantage; he is a cool and even headed fencer.

You know Lucas's "intent" with his characters? Aside from the overall bits that he gave us - as well as observations (our fallible ones) from the movies, Lucas is not that specific when it comes to every single character, so I don't know how you can claim to know his intent with Anakin as far as combat as concerned. We do know that he had Anakin win due to superior power in regards to Count Dooku - which, again, is final. They both fought on even terms, and only one walked out alive.

One could make an argument that Dooku's arrogance allowed that to happen. If you wish to include Anakin's mental instability in the duel, then why not include Dooku's equally significant character flaw - he is an egotistical duelist. That could, just as well, spell his undoing, and prevent him from using a Force attack, even when he has the chance to perform one.

Hence the novelization is working into Lucas' "grand" (😛) design when he wrote that passage, not contradicting it.

As I said, it is. Palpatine interfering would imply that the fight was deliberately engineered for only Anakin to survive. This is not the case.

I am not contradicting George's intent when I say Dooku has the psychogical advantage, as he, Lee, and Wallace view the book as G canon. Unless it is stated that lines that did not make its way into the movie, but were approved into book, and which are also in line with Lucas' intent, are non canon, I don't see what makes what you say any more correct than what I say.

The overall book is G-canon. There are specific parts of it that are not canon. Again, if this is the case, Obi-Wan + Yoda don't have a chance against Sidious in single combat; Sidious is beyond power; his skills as a manipulator dwarf the power of the dark side; Yoda lost the fight before he began, and got wtfpwned in combat.

You can't pick and choose.

And so what IF Dooku could do so? Your point? Kenobi's endurance and Soresu along with his Force strength will grant him a good amount of time IF Anakin was to engage Maul.

Absolute nonsense. Dooku can force choke Obi-Wan and toss him into a wall, or wherever, knocking him out cold, in no time at all. You can time it yourself, took less than 4 seconds.

Kenobi sure hasn't demonstrated any sort of formidable resistance against force telekenisis from Dooku.

Dooku visibly did not try this tactic on Anakin, possibly because he felt he could destroy him in lightsaber dueling or because Anakin's force strength is much greater than Kenobi's. Either explanation works fine.

Guys, one question: why everyone says that dooku>anakin in force power? Because i remember Sidious talking wth grievous, and when he asked about dooku's death, sidious said that "I will soon have a new aprentice, younger and more powerful". So, he is implying that Anakin is already more powerful then Dooku. In fact, if you read the plot script, it says that obi-wan and dooku was getting tired but anakin wasn't during their fight, what i think points out to greater force power (more power, more endurance).

So, why would Dooku's powers be bigger then Anakin's ones? Also, anakin said to dooku something like "My powers double since the last time we fought".

I think that Anakin>Dooku in powers, that's why he didn't use the force against anakin, because he could not KO him as he did with Obi-Wan...

Dooku will realize that Kenobi's Soresu is hard to break, so he goes for the Force. Here he will do some techniques and finally finish off Obi-Wan. Kenobi's dodges and Force Pushes along with Soresu grants him a total time of survival of anywhere from 40 seconds

Where the hell, I ask, are you getting these numbers from. If Dooku decides to cut the shit, he can throw Kenobi out of the fight easily. All it took is a single push, the slightest “whipcrack of power” (from the ROTS novelization) to throw Kenobi off.

If you decide to be difficult and ignore other G canon sources, then the entire scenario looks worse. Dooku was able to play “ragdoll,” with Kenobi immediately after intercepting Skywalker’s attack.

Do you have proof that Kenobi can resist. Unfortunately, you do not.

(Advent agreed to this time even though originally she thought it would be like 13 seconds) to 1 minute 30 seconds (reasonable).

Good for her. Now prove these figures up when Dooku, deciding to cut the shit, threw Kenobi away effortlessly.

And where is this asinine opinion of yours (?) coming that “tehh chozen one kills teh Maulzz in teh ten seconds ROFLCOPTOR!!!11.” It would definitely be a far more difficult battle than what you, sadly, think.

Maul was able to take down Qui Gon, a Jedi master whom Kenobi thought “equivalent” to TPM Windu. He destroyed the entirety of the Black Sun singlehandedly, defeated arguably one of the strongest masters of the TPM, Anoon Bondar, and withstood an excruciating blast of force lightning all the while continuing to slice apart a nightsister.

Kill Maul in ten seconds? What a joke.

Umm....Dooku kicks Anakin away. He then lifts Kenobi with a Choke, and then swings his hand to complete a Whirlwind on Kenobi.

LOL. Hence why I said Dooku effortlessly did in Kenobi. Weren't you listening? As in, Kenobi had no defence to counter Dooku's attack. And of course, let’s ignore the fact that Maul is also present, occupying one of the combatants.

Finally, Dooku could have easily done the same manuever on Anakin. Are you saying then that Dooku pwns Anakin?

It has been proven in the novelization and even more so explicity shown in the movies that Dooku could easily overpower Kenobi’s defences. It has actually been shown in the movies that Kenobi could not even defend against what you rather inepty call a “whirlwind.”

Whether you accuse me of the belief that Dooku “pwns” Anakin with respect to force powers means jack shit to me. That he can is what those who believe Dooku is stronger than Anikin in force powers believe. Don’t be daft.

LOL, even though the highest form of canon shows Anakin destroying Tyrannus.

And a source which Lucas acknowledges as a “complement” to the highest form of canon (the novelizations) states that Dooku was winning through superiour tactics and mingames before Palpatine interfered. Keep avoiding the point.

If you decide to be ignorant and off the novelization, then the movie makes it look worse. He was destroying the duo initially. Anakin couldn’t overcome a grieving Obi Wan at the “height of his fury.” Dooku easily mopped the floor with Obi Wan. He could have decided to toss Anakin into the pillar, instead of Obi Wan. Anakin manages to pull of the one exception to his entire career and slices off Dooku’s hand, after the Sith Lord was tired from fighting two combatants at once (and initially pwning them). To say that the same thing happens in a neutral arena, where Dooku opts to to use all his force powers at their maximum, is incredibly illogical. By this shitty logic, Darth Maul gets pwned by TPM Obi Wan 10/10. Which of course one would only believe if they are incredibly thick.

Kenobi definately lasts for a solid amount.

Other than the fact that it has been clearly demonstrated that Kenobi cannot resist Dooku’s force attacks in both the movie and “novelization,” your claim gets sodomized by loads of proof.

What the hell are talking about? Watch the ROTS Duel kid, and time Anakin's killing of Dooku.

If you decided to let my argument seep through the sparse crevices of your skull, maybe you will realize that the novelization is considered G canon by Lucas, and that Dooku was winning by taunts. I have posted the passage from a G canon source enough times. If you don’t want to read or accept the passage, then go ahead. It could matter less to me.

And since you decide not to discern the difference between a cardboard cut fight from the movie’s and a neutral arena where each opponent is believed to use their abilities to the maximum, you will never understand that Anakin would get wasted. Anakin was not able to overpower Obi Wan even at the height of his fury. Dooku floored Obi Wan I am sure, dude, you can put two and two together.

HIGHEST FORM OF CANON never shows Dooku doing a flick and knocking Kenobi away.

The highest form of canon showed Dooku completely dominating Obi Wan’s defenses whilst being attacked by Anakin.

He decides to throw Obi Wan around like a football, after immediately meeting Anakin’s strikes with his boot.

The HIGHEST FORM OF CANON is of course more accurate than novelizations.

It does not matter because there is no contradiction. In both renditions, Dooku’s powers dominate Obi Wan’s. If he cuts the shit, he wins. If he decides to gauge Obi Wan, he decides ten seconds later Obi Wan practices Soresu and tosses him away. Argue with the canon, not me.

The ROTS novelization in addition shows many exaggerations of powers.

Inasmuch as his force powers have been complimented by evidence from the movies I would say no, it does not.

Dooku being able with a flick of a wrist send Kenobi slamming into the wall should make Dooku a very powerful Sith Lord in terms of Force strength,

Why, yes it does!

1.) When did Dooku taunt Anakin? Are you referring all the way back when Dooku was like “Good, the greater the pride, the greater the fall”?, because there was never any dialogue until Dooku and Anakin enter the saber-lock.
2.) Seriously, as Advent has said, when did Palps intervene? He just did some random grunts and noises.

Oh wow. You are being dense, and you are doing it on fvcking purpose.

If you want to completely ignore the novelization and only go by the movies then if Dooku decided to use force powers instead of simply clashing with lightsabers (which was purely a choreographic decision made by Lucas), then he would be wiping the floor with Anakin. As Janus already pointed out, Dooku was able to match blades and contend “in force power” with Yoda. Anakin couldn’t overcome Obi Wan’s force powers even at the “height” of his fury, (when his dark side force powers should theoretically be the strongest.)

From the imaged a few posts back , where Dooku decides to cut the shit, he throws Obi Wan around a large distance away from him, immediately after performing a masterful kick that sends Anakin flying the opposite direction.

If again, we are ignoring the novelizations and go only by the movie, then Dooku was tired after his exertions against two younger warriors. He did not even have a chance to revitalize after exerting himself against the might of two Jedi. Under these extremely unfavourable circumstances, Anakin pulled of the exception, he strong-armed Dooku and for that one duel for that specific scenario, he pulled off a victory. If we go by these one scenario cases, as others have pointed before me, then Maul would lose to TPM Obi Wan all the time.

To say that in a neutral arena, that Dooku would not use whatever he can in his arsenal to take down Skywalker, would be incredibly asinine. If we go only by the movies (as you are fond of), in a neutral arena where everyone is using their talents to the optimum, Dooku smashes Anakin’s face into dry jerky.

Anakin’s skill is what will cause the demise of the Sith Lord. As ROTS shows us, even if Dooku was arrogant,

Again, if we go only by the movies and decide to ignore the novelizations:

If Dooku were actually using his skills to the maximum (as is implied in a neutral arena) instead of being a “cardboard character” fighter (soley for the audience’s amusement in ROTS, I would ascertain), then he would wipe the floor with Anakin.

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And do you think Yoda was going all out on Dooku in terms of the Force?

Am I saying he did? I believe he was giving Yoda some difficulty (which is if we go by the movie as you are so fond of doing) Yoda was exhibiting great difficulty pushing that piece of debris away.

Yoda has the power to throw back a Senate Pod thrown downwards at him

Good for him, I wasn’t arguing anything contrary to what was depicted from the movie's about Yoda.

(and accelerating due to Gravity)

[sarcasm]OH RLLY?! That IS what happens to objects that fall within a gravitational field, ya know?! [/sarcasm]

And Dooku's claims are sometime false. In LOE, Dooku says to EU Grievous that Cin Drallig could give you a defeat. Are you saying Cin Drallig > EU Grievous?

Nice try comparing two completely unrelated scenarios. The point you brang up and what I put down are completely different animals. Dooku’s assumption about Cin was incorrect because he cannot speak for Grievous or Cin. He can judge both of their abilities and come to a shaky conclusion on whether Drallig “could” (which implies only a possibility) defeat Grievous.

With Anakin, he was experiencing the battle first hand, and he can actually come to an accurate judgement on what was going on.

And seriously, Dooku's Lightning was blocked by AOTC Obi-Wan. Obviously Anakin can block it.

Proof? Because he is tehh chosen one?!!111

If the two fought, Anakin wouldn't allow Dooku time to use the Force, he'll unleash his lightsaber and it will go down to a saber duel to the death. Anakin wins.

If you chose to off the novelization, Dooku was able to meet both their attacks and remove Kenobi despite Anakin "not allowing Dooku time to use the force."Anakin couldn’t overcome in force power, a grieving Obi Wan even at the “height of his fury.” Dooku easily mopped the floor with Obi Wan. He was able to give Yoda some difficulty, if we go completely by the movie. What happens in a neutral arena where "card board cut lightsaber battles" are not necessarily the case. Again I say, connect the dots.

Even with your sorry excuse of Palps intervention (which is bogus by the way),

LOL. I was coming to a logical conclusion, that Dooku was winning due to his psychological edge in the novelization (which is also valid G-canon), before Palpatine intervened. If you cannot accept the point, then don’t and stop arguing. Insinuating other people’s points which come from valid G canon is not the way to go.

AHA!!! Notice how you never came to the thread before until now? I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to Planet. Which means that......[B]you're Planet

I suggest you address to him then, instead of putting it under something you quoted from me, you ditz.

Page 145 of the Complete Visual Dictionary confirms Dooku fought for his life-in the movie- and was outmatched-in the movie- and that Palpatine promised to intervene if anakin got the upperhand and was told to fight to his bst-in the movie.

Anakin>Dooku, case closed

Cardboard cut should read "cardboard cut out" or even "cookie cut."

I wasn't thinking it "out." 😛

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Page 145 of the Complete Visual Dictionary confirms Dooku fought for his life-in the movie- and was outmatched-in the movie- and that Palpatine promised to intervene if anakin got the upperhand and was told to fight to his bst-in the movie.

Anakin>Dooku, case closed

G canon novelization and the movie's show Dooku winning and Anakin's victory more a fluke than anything.

Case closed.

....what? The moment the novelization has Anakin get into action, Dooku is dead. Remember that? "Dooku is already dead, the rest are details."

Yep, the case is indeed closed.