Anakin ROTS and Obi-Wan ROTS vs. Darth Maul and Count Dooku

Started by General Kenobl8 pages

First off, I'm not going to argue Anakin against you. You and whoever else is with you can think what you like. A good majority of people here can concede that Dooku > Anakin only in Force powers. In a lightsaber duel and in an overall duel, it's been proven by the movies, by the novelization, and by other canon sources that Anakin > Dooku. I'm going to argue for Obi-Wan here. Apparenty you think that if Dooku and Obi-Wan were to enter a nuetral arena one on one that Tyrannus pwns Kenobi with a Force Push. I say bullshit! Here's why:

Where the hell, I ask, are you getting these numbers from. If Dooku decides to cut the shit, he can throw Kenobi out of the fight easily. All it took is a single push, the slightest “whipcrack of power” (from the ROTS novelization) to throw Kenobi off.

If you decide to be difficult and ignore other G canon sources, then the entire scenario looks worse. Dooku was able to play “ragdoll,” with Kenobi immediately after intercepting Skywalker’s attack.

Do you have proof that Kenobi can resist. Unfortunately, you do not.

First off, the novelization is not considered as true when it defies parts of the movies itself (which are, by the way, the highest canon). With this said,

1.) The quote says with a single flick, Kenobi was sent flying. A flick as you is a "A light quick blow, jerk, or touch" {Source: American Heritage Dictionary}. Now if you watch the Duel on the Invisible Hand, there's a clear scene showing Dooku driving his hand forth for a Force Push that sends Kenobi flying twenty feet away. Now, how it does work out if a flick does the same level of damage as a direct Force Push aimed right at a target? It doesn't. The flick, as I have mentioned before, is an exaggeration. It is basically saying then a flung out hand driving forward with energy of Dooku's should be able to send Kenobi away like how a quarterback throws a football into the end zone. Which of course, is ridiculous and already incorrect as Dooku did an aimed energy thrown hand that sent Kenobi flying, not a flick.

2.) Kenobi has no defense whatsoever for that attack. He had no clue that Dooku was suddenly going 100% all out and dropping the shit. Kenobi didn't know that Dooku going all out and so when he attacks, he doesn't realize that Tyrannus was going to do something powerful. That's why he got pwned by the combo. As you know, Kenobi and Skywalker both started using their forms on Dooku and Tyrannus being threatened, Pushes Kenobi away. Obi-Wan doesn't think that Dooku is going all out and is still thinking that the Sith Lord's arrogance would still make him toy around. But that counter for Kenobi, and that's why he was knocked out cold.

As you can see, Dooku dropping the shit is able to take down Obi-Wan. However, he harldy pwns and finishes off in thirteen seconds as you may think. Dooku's Force moves are going to be very difficult for Anakin, but Kenobi will engage in a lightsaber duel and it is here that Dooku will do a combo and use that trump card of his to finish off Obi-Wan. However, it's hardly 13 seconds. More like forty. I mean, seriously, Dooku spent longer than 13 seconds against other Jedi who are worse than Kenobi. It's stupid that Dooku can take out Kenobi that fast in ROTS without there being explanation.

And for clarification, don't make up shit. I have never said Anakin takes out Maul in ten seconds. Please go back to the beginning of the thread where I said Skywalker kills Maul in half a minute. Kenobi can easily stall Dooku long enough for Anakin to save his ass.

I don't have time to argue longer, but perhaps you should learn that Kenobi is not <<<<< Dooku as you portray it to be.

I think it's cute, Zephiel, how you completely ignored my post, and then how you decided to base Anakin's victory off of a "fluke".

So, let's go through some facts for you.

Fact: Anakin > Dooku in power. Lucas confirmed it.

Fact: When Anakin "was in the proper state of mind", he absolutely crushed Dooku. The fight wasn't "epic", it wasn't "close". Anakin simply tore Dooku's shit up, and WTFpwned him in single combat. The same novelization that you take to be the sheer gospel said that Dooku was "already dead", even before Anakin had done the deed.

Fact: Movies and/or George Lucas > the novelization in the food chain of canon status. Palpatine didn't give a remark to Anakin. That part of the book is not valid.

Fact: Palpatine referred to Anakin as "more powerful" than Dooku. He used them as pawns for the past ten years, so, I guess, he'd probably be the only in-universe source that could accurately gauge power, also - he was watching the entire fight.

Fact: Palpatine orchestrated the fight to see which one was stronger. He did not have a bias for Anakin - and he did not engineer the fight to give Anakin the advantage. Hell, he flat out told Anakin in Rise of Darth Vader that if Count Dooku had been stronger, he'd have let Anakin die, and Dooku would be at the Emperor's right hand.

Question: So, how could Anakin have won by a "fluke"?

Originally posted by Generic Hero
What's exactly stopping Dooku from force choking Obi-Wan and disabling him right off the bat?

And there's little evidence to say that Anakin can cope with a double team from two experienced Sith Lords, let a lone win against.

Vote for the Sith duo.

What's exactly stopping Anakin from viciously attacking Doooku and killing him off the bat?

And there's little evidence that Dooku can disable Kenobi right off the bat due to his "whipcrack of power" since it doesn't make sense then with the movies and considering Obi-Wan's powers.

Vote for the Jedi duo.

What's exactly stopping Anakin from viciously attacking Doooku and killing him off the bat?

When has Anakin ever demonstrated the ability to destroy an opponent on Dooku's level in moments, in a saber duel? I know Dooku can choke Kenobi and toss him aside on his first visible attempt (In a grand total of four seconds) without any notable strain. What is stopping him from doing this again?

Anakin took a grand total of 0:40-1:00 to defeat Dooku in a saber duel.

And there's little evidence that Dooku can disable Kenobi right off the bat due to his "whipcrack of power" since it doesn't make sense then with the movies and considering Obi-Wan's powers.

In the film, Dooku took a grand total of four seconds to force choke Kenobi and disable him. Perhaps you missed this?

If it comes to sabers, Generic, it is quite likely that Dooku won't have the chance to disable him with the Force. Anakin is faster and stronger than him, and his stamina is above and beyond Dooku's own - Dooku couldn't leave himself open long enough for such an attack.

Though, likely, the Sith duo win. Maul is seriously underestimated. Dooku + Maul = dead Ani-poo.

If it comes to sabers, Generic, it is quite likely that Dooku won't have the chance to disable him with the Force.

Won't have a chance to disable Obi-Wan? All he needs to do is put his arm out and choke. Obi-Wan's gone. If Maul's there to stall Anakin for a brief period of time, then it'll probably take less time because Dooku won't have to worry about disabling Anakin.

Dooku is a greater force wielder than Kenobi. From what I've seen, and read, it was Anakin's aggressiveness that made it difficult for Dooku to pull this off against him. An entirely different situation with Kenobi, who can't play the aggressive game.

I think Maul is the odd one out....Obi-wan or Anakin could handle him well enough

Obviously even Anakin can't handle the physical intensity of Maul and refinement of technique that Dooku has to offer at the same time, but if Obi Wan can hold either one off for a decent amount of time, the Jedi win. Basically, if Kenobi puts up a good defence and doesn't get chucked again, the Jedi win.

How about Maul vs. Obi while Ani hanles Dooku?

That would fit into the category of Dooku not chucking Obi Wan...

Also, teamwork could turn out to be huge if they switch off opponents instead of two separate straightforward duels. Anakin could jump in if Obi needed help if Obi was put against Dooku.

In the film, Dooku took a grand total of four seconds to force choke Kenobi and disable him. Perhaps you missed this?

What do you think I'm arguing with Zephiel for? I have talked about this. Please refer above.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
Won't have a chance to disable Obi-Wan? All he needs to do is put his arm out and choke. Obi-Wan's gone. If Maul's there to stall Anakin for a brief period of time, then it'll probably take less time because Dooku won't have to worry about disabling Anakin.

Dooku is a greater force wielder than Kenobi. From what I've seen, and read, it was Anakin's aggressiveness that made it difficult for Dooku to pull this off against him. An entirely different situation with Kenobi, who can't play the aggressive game.

I was referring to Anakin, sorry, not Obi.

Can you say Escape that Kenobi can last an okay amount of time against Dooku? Or do you too agree with Zephiel and Generic?

Originally posted by General Kenobl
Can you say Escape that Kenobi can last an okay amount of time against Dooku? Or do you too agree with Zephiel and Generic?

That depends.

Obi-Wan has a zero-point-zero chance of winning. He'd be facing an opponent who is the more skilled swordsman, and a much more powerful master of the Force.

In a lightsaber fight? Yes, Obi-Wan does have the capability to last quite a while. His lightsaber defense is superior to anyone in the movies. It is his offense that doesn't quite measure up. He'd have to stay on the defensive the entire time, as Dooku would tear his shit up if he ever tried to offensively take the Sith Lord out of the game.

I think RotS essentially showed that Count Dooku couldn't take Anakin and Obi-Wan in a prolonged lightsaber duel, hence why he used the Force on two occasions to desperately try to separate the two, and why he had his battle droids fire upon Obi-Wan.

However, Count Dooku is easily (no exaggeration) capable of disabling Obi-Wan with the Force. If he abandons his arrogance (which we can all agree that it isn't bound to happen in the initial part of the fight) he could use the Force, which Obi-Wan, sadly, has zero-point-zero chance of stopping.

Sabers? Yes.

Force? Hell no to the power of ten.

All right, that's a nice response. I agree with most of the lightsaber info you posted. In terms of the Force, I would agree that Dooku is easily better than Obi-Wan, however I would say Kenobi's Force powers grant him a litte more time. And yes, Dooku's arrogance is a main part of the Sith Lord. Dooku not at all having arrogance (in the initial part of the duel and whatsoever) is like Anakin not at all using his anger/rage.

Anyway, this is why in a overall duel, I have been arguing my ass off against you, Advent, Planet, and Zephiel saying that Kenobi cannot get pwned by the Force in 13 seconds.

Originally posted by General Kenobl
All right, that's a nice response. I agree with most of the lightsaber info you posted. In terms of the Force, I would agree that Dooku is easily better than Obi-Wan, however I would say Kenobi's Force powers grant him a litte more time. And yes, Dooku's arrogance is a main part of the Sith Lord. Dooku not at all having arrogance (in the initial part of the duel and whatsoever) is like Anakin not at all using his anger/rage.

Anyway, this is why in a overall duel, I have been arguing my ass off against you, Advent, Planet, and Zephiel saying that Kenobi cannot get pwned by the Force in 13 seconds.

No. Kenobi can get pwned with the Force in about four seconds. It's Dooku's arrogance that would prevent that from happening. Not anything special from Obi-Wan.

But Obi-Wan trained The Chosen One, that's got to count for something!

Originally posted by The Planet
But Obi-Wan trained The Chosen One, that's got to count for something!

Do I even need to dignify this? You know better.

No. Kenobi can get pwned with the Force in about four seconds. It's Dooku's arrogance that would prevent that from happening. Not anything special from Obi-Wan.

Just how so? Because when he was caught by surprise , we was taken out in eight seconds or so? Seriously man, people undermine Kenobi in the Force. He slammed Grievous (who was able to dodge Force attacks) into a steel bar which was fifty feet into the air, hundred feet across. He brought down a ton of metal on the Magnaguards. I know that Dooku is definately better, but to say he pwns in 4 seconds is ridiculous. Dooku pwns a chum like some other Jedi in 4 seconds. It's not logical that he does the same with Kenobi.