Originally posted by General Kenobl
Shut up and stop being a troll. You're going to get the refutation...
Lmao. Why don't you stop trying to play Rex, and get working on that rebuttle? The way it looks, you're going to need all the help you can get. Or are you going to argue "he dropped teh metal block on teh Magnaguards" from here to eternity?
Go. Right. Ahead.The feat is impressive? No. Sidious playing tennis with Senate pods and Yoda catching lightning with his bare hands is impressive. The metal was suspended by the restraint. Obi-Wan did not do anything other than remove the restraint. It was gravity that performed this so-called impressive feat.
This delusion that you have is an example of you having your head up your ass when it comes to Obi-Wan vs. Dooku.
Sidious playing tennis with Senate pods is really impressive. There's no denying that. Obi-Wan removed a restraint holding a ton of metal. In addition, he moved an entire starfighter towards him to destroy some droids (see my Feats on Kenobi) And please, your ridiculous attempts to make me look bad are quite pathetic and hilarious.
CW Grievous =/= RotS Grievous. Understand that. Anyways, lol, "he was caught off guard!". Sound familiar?
A sorry comeback, not even making sense with the total argument. Grievous was fighting a Jedi , need I remind you. Grievous has fought hundreds of Jedi. I would hope a Jedi uses the Force against the droid general.
Lol. I didn't realize that you were George Lucas, now. Please. It's not your place to tell me how the fight would have gone, when you've got nothing to base it on.
Once again, absolutely pathetic. You don't think that your precious Dooku couldn't kill Obi-Wan faster if he wasn't toying around?
This is why I lose my patience with you on this issue. You don't know what Obi-Wan was thinking. Or Dooku. So quit trying to say "oh, well, Obi-Wan knew that Dooku wasn't trying - so he went on the offensive...", 'cause you don't know. Period.He gets chucked by Dooku twice. Why? Because Dooku is a better Force user.
OMFG, no kidding, you lose your patience because you cannot deny logical evidence. I have given paragraphs showing why Obi-Wan was owned, all you ever do is Ad Nauseam. Dude, there is reason for some things man. There was a reason why Kenobi had no proper defense to the attack. The same Kenobi whose defense managed to make him unscathed from a direct blow of a Force Push from a desperate Dooku. I guess by your logic then that Obi-Wan could have been like "HEY ANI, WATCH ME PWN DOOKU BROTHA" and then attack Dooku. No, it doesn't work, especially since I have given paragraphs showing why my beliefs make sense.
Yeah. Except that Maul dominated Obi-Wan before that little incident. Or did you conveniantly forget why Obi-Wan was in the pit in the first place?They fought on even ground; Obi-Wan lost. Maul held off Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon at the same time for an extremely long amount of time. If that's not a sign of superiority, I don't know what is, especially when he killed Qui-Gon and the only reason Obi-Wan did anything noteworthy was because of his brief touch with his inner dark side.
Your point? By your logic on specifications of fighting and how catching opponents off guard is all right, then I guess Obi-Wan > Maul (because he caught him guard, and catching people off guard is part of fighting). Don't even deny it Escape.
Pardon? This was posted by you:
Duh ta duh, what the hell do you think the Duel in the Chancellor's Office and Duel in the Invisible Hand was???
Oh, yeah, lmao. Sidious should have been able to defend a kick against an opponent who is much more physically capable than him? And, no, you are wrong, Prodigal. Didn't you just get done saying that Dooku's Force attacks were out of desperation? He was going all out. And, just to be sure, the movies don't support the whole "faking it" conclusion. None of them were screwing around at that point. The only one being anything close to restrained was Anakin, due to Obi-Wan's presence - and Count Dooku's arrogance prevented him from using his superior Force powers until it was too late, or extremely desperate.The lightsaber portion of the fight seemed to be both fast paced and extremely epic. Neither side was faking. The script and movies don't support that conclusion.
Is it I, or is you skill as a debater going down man? Seriously, all I see posted here is a screwed argument ready to be torn apart.
1.) Umm...if Sidious cannot defend it, then he's going to suffer. The basic point: he was unable to protect himself, so he lost.
2.) When Dooku did in desperation a DIRECT FORCE PUSH at Kenobi, Obi-Wan's endurance and defense makes him fall fifteen feet away uninjured.
3.) The movies don't support "fake it"? Does this mean it doesn't show a person not trying? I guess then Dooku was trying really hard against AOTC Anakin. No, at the point when Dooku caught Kenobi off guard, Kenobi wasn’t using his Soresu (he instead went on the offensive, which he is not that great with) and he did not know Dooku is going all out, and ergo he lost.
Like I said, psuedo-George, don't tell me that "Obi-Wan wasn't expecting shit!!!11", because you don't know.And, furthermore, even if he was - then it's just like Dooku's arrogance. An extreme psychological disadvantage. If Obi-Wan tried to toy with Dooku, and couldn't tell when Dooku stopped "cutting the shit" as you so eloquently put it, then what's to say that he would in a regular duel, and that would somehow miraculously prevent him from getting owned again?
Answer: It wouldn't.
Caught you!!! First off Escape, since you cannot accept reasoning, I won't even bother arguing with you on that. Apparently your only excuse is “he wasn’t trying, even though I have shown otherwise”. Second, I proved my point. If Dooku did try to toy around and stuff like that, then Kenobi can easily last for a minute +. If Dooku was going all out, Kenobi would last maybe half that time (around 40 seconds). Looks I put my words right into your mouth, lol.
Lmao.a.) Where were Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Dooku "holding back"? As far as the lightsaber fight is concerned, they seemed quite clearly to be going full out on one another. Anakin was restrained by Obi-Wan, and Dooku may have been restrained by his own ego. What's Obi-Wan's excuse?
b.) Bullshit as far as Mace vs. Sidious. You say that Sidious wasn't caught off guard and he could have stopped the kick? Then, he would have done so - regardless if Mace was stronger.
Hypothetically speaking, if Sidious wasn't caught off guard, he would have put up a defense. If Mace were stronger regardless, and the kick would have ended the fight, it would've broken through his defenses or he would have landed it anyway, regardless if Sidious tried to avoid it.
Bottom line: By your logic, Sidious was caught off guard no more than Obi-Wan, and no less. Still doesn't change the fact. Dooku overpowered him in that situation (simultaneously combating Anakin) while Sidious was overpowered by Mace in their duel.
A.) Dooku was slighty toying around, and his ego was high. Anakin attacked first with Ataru. But he couldn't use Shien due to limited space. Obi-Wan went on the offensive with Ataru or Shii-Cho.
B.) I think you should first comprehend my definition of "caught off guard" in this situation. Dooku caught Kenobi off guard because he stopped the shit and was going all out and Kenobi didn't realize that. In the case of Mace vs. Sidious, they were both going all out and Mace did a kick which Sidious was unable to block, thus he lost. That's why Mace > Sidious in lightsaber combat.
Bottom Line: Obi-Wan never saw much of Dooku going all out except for a Force Push which hardly affected Kenobi. Kenobi thus went up the stairs and going on the offensive, still not realizing that Dooku was going all out now. Thus, this is why Kenobi gets owned. Otherwise, it does not make sense.
Yoda and Sidious did go full out. Again, Yoda got owned by Force lightning in the beginning, and Sidious then got owned by a Force push. Both reasons were simple: both were caught off guard and both went in overconfident. Then, of course, you have the fact that they both landed blows on one another during their duel.Where did Obi-Wan best Dooku, or come close? Answer: he didn't, except in a prolonged lightsaber duel - but that was with Anakin, as well.
I wasn't aware that Yoda originally get blasted by Sidious Force Lightning was part of the fight. Yoda never met a Dark Lord of the Sith, so it is natural that he would be caught off guard. I am pretty sure you are not talking about the time Sidious fired Lightning at Yoda's Lightsaber, because that was hardly owning. When Yoda got up (from the first Lighning attack), he Pushed Sidious through the Chancellor's chair. Sidious realized that his opponent wasn't going to be easy so he escapes for the door. Yoda blocks the way out, and the two ignite their sabers and start fighting.
And why are you putting a question out? Obi-Wan couldn't best Dooku, dumbass. His defense, endurance, and his lightsaber skillz will grant him some time, but he's not going to win, but he's not going to get pwned.
Who said it was to injure him?When have Force pushes been known to cause debilitating injuries in the movies? The only case that came close was with Grievous, but he was slammed, very hard, into a wall, and then fell from a great height. Even then, all it did was put distance between them (which was what Obi-Wan did) - but it didn't injure him. At best, it stunned him.
The same went for Sidious.
Likely, Dooku just wanted to separate them - hence the follow up attack from the Battle Droids
"Who said it was to injure him" So Dooku, even though in desperation, decides to calmly Push Kenobi away. Right, nice logic. And the Battle Droids?
Your second point is contradictory. Dooku used a sidearm Force Push to knock Kenobi (caught off guard) out.
Please. You're judging the effort and damage of the attack merely from the gestures that follow? Obi-Wan was choked by Dooku - it wasn't merely a Force push. Dooku kept him suspended in mid air long enough to back kick Anakin into the wall - and then he used the "sidearm swipe" to fling Obi-Wan into the wall.a.) The choking factor must have helped.
b.) The distance Obi-Wan was thrown the second time was much greater than the first.
c.) Obi-Wan hit a metal wall.
d.) Obi-Wan bounced off the wall and fell.
e.) Obi-Wan was then buried under a balcony.
Yes, I judge from the gestures that followed. Gestures tell you the Force power differential. For example, when Obi-Wan turns around and then delievers a Force Push equates to a much higher strength then a Force Push where the hand just appears before the opponent. And please, watch that scene again. Dooku Chokes Kenobi for about two seconds while he kicks Anakin away. He then throws Kenobi into the platform.
A.) True
B.) Really? And even IF that was true, Kenobi was caught off guard by the sea of Force attacks and ergo he was thrown away like that, because if you remember, when he stood in front Dooku headon and took in the Force Push, his defense made him land on the other side of the stairwell.
C.) So? During When They Were Brothers, Kenobi was slammed through the window from an explosion and was still conscious. He has endurance man. That is why he wasn't injured by Dooku's direct Force Push. Kenobi would have gotten up from the Push into the wall, but Dooku dropped a platform on it.
D.) He fell like 5 feet. Big deal, I could withstand that.
E.) Yes, this what made him fully snuffed.
Like I told you. Sidious and Grievous recovered extremely quickly from their Force pushes quite easily as well. Maul's Force push to Obi-Wan in TPM didn't injure him insofar as put distance between them - coupled with the near tumble into the melting pit. The push itself did jack. Then, of course, Anakin and Obi-Wan both recovered from their Force pushes quite easily, despite being slammed into consoles.Force push isn't Force lightning. It's not damaging in itself.
Maul saw a hole and saw a Padawan nearly on top of him. What does he do? He Pushes him into the hole, avoiding any extra fighting. Smart move Maul. And yes, a Force Push is damaging. Mace Windu used a Force Wave (higher level of Push) to destroy droids on Dantooine. Kenobi used a Force Push to injured Grievous. Dooku used Force Push on Kenobi to remove him from the duel but failed. The second time though, he succeeded by surprising Dooku with a Force Push.
Obi-Wan's defense makes him a problem. But, lol, he's got no chance of winning due to a poor offense
You don't need offense to win a duel, stupid. Look what happened to ROTS Grievous. Obi-Wan was using Soresu and then disarming when having openings. And did you see how fast Kenobi was with Soresu against Anakin in ROTS during the Mustafar duel? Yes, in a lightsaber duel, Kenobi can give Greivous a helluva fight.
Take the Obi-Wan and Anakin vs. Dooku fight (which ends when Obi-Wan is knocked unconscious, divide it by two, and that's about it.
I counted, it's 1 minute exactly.
Please. Seven seconds? Are you sure about that, because I'm not. In any case, lmao, it took one second to kill Agen. The rest was Sidious flipping over the desk, growling, then lunging forward and stabbing him.
Sorry, it's 6 seconds. The Force Speed + Jump + Rage is what finished Kolar so quickly. Thus Dooku cannot kill Kenobi in 4 seconds, but instead a minute (you conceded to a minute) plus.
@ Advent:
Pwnt.And the other post, "Part 2" is feat wars which, in regards to Gideon's post, is irrelevant. Feat Wars mean precisely dick when not put into context.
The Feat Wars is used for reference. You often times post your Feat Wars of Dooku is threads.
Part 1 of 3
Well, before we begin, let me make a few things clear with you. I've read your posts, both of them, and they both have a ridiculous amount of insults and scathing remarks in them. You seemed to have picked up The Planet's habit of using the phrase "dumbass". What is really interesting about this, is that you accused me of being a "troll" on this very page.
Shut up and stop being a troll. You're going to get the refutation...
So, like The Planet, you've become a hypocrite. You also make remarks about how my attempts only make me look bad. I wonder what people will think about you once they see you whining about others being a troll - and then going on a spree of insults yourself?
Not too good. And, as I recall, you aren't considered the pinnacle of debating yourself so... I'd just be careful.
Likewise, continue it, and you'll get similar - and much harsher - responses.
Sidious playing tennis with Senate pods is really impressive. There's no denying that. Obi-Wan removed a restraint holding a ton of metal. In addition, he moved an entire starfighter towards him to destroy some droids (see my Feats on Kenobi) And please, your ridiculous attempts to make me look bad are quite pathetic and hilarious.
Let me reiterate it for you: Obi-Wan did not do anything impressive in that instance. As Advent and I have tried to make it clear to you on previous occasions, he simply snapped the restraint on the metal block - and then gravity took over from there.
It is not as if he lifted the metal himself, so stop pretending that the feat was anything considerable. If you want to credit anyone or anything for the deaths of the Magnaguards, I'd recommend thanking and fellating gravity itself.
A sorry comeback, not even making sense with the total argument. Grievous was fighting a Jedi , need I remind you. Grievous has fought hundreds of Jedi. I would hope a Jedi uses the Force against the droid general.
General Grievous has fought hundreds of Jedi? In single combat? Where has this been stated and confirmed?
And, considering how most Jedi Knights and Masters rely primarily on lightsaber combat, and use the Force only when necessary, I doubt that they came out of the blue and tried to engage him in Force combat, as that isn't the common practice.
Once again, absolutely pathetic. You don't think that your precious Dooku couldn't kill Obi-Wan faster if he wasn't toying around?
When was he toying around, Prodigal? The novelization seems to say so, but observations from the movie and script disagree.
Likewise, "my precious Dooku"? I could go into extreme detail of how "stupid" you are, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Need I remind you that I have argued against Dooku more than I have argued for him and the reason I do both is because I am fair?
It would seem as if you are trying to accuse me of fanboyism for Count Dooku.
I wouldn't try to point fingers at me for fanboyism, General Kenobi.
OMFG, no kidding, you lose your patience because you cannot deny logical evidence. I have given paragraphs showing why Obi-Wan was owned, all you ever do is Ad Nauseam. Dude, there is reason for some things man. There was a reason why Kenobi had no proper defense to the attack. The same Kenobi whose defense managed to make him unscathed from a direct blow of a Force Push from a desperate Dooku. I guess by your logic then that Obi-Wan could have been like "HEY ANI, WATCH ME PWN DOOKU BROTHA" and then attack Dooku. No, it doesn't work, especially since I have given paragraphs showing why my beliefs make sense.
The attacks were different; and I told you, in itself, a Force push is not damaging. The most damage that it can do is when the victim impacts with something. Sidious, a sixty year old man, was caught off guard and flung across his office, crashed into a massive chair, which spilled him out to the floor. And, yet, two second later, he was already back to his feet.
The second thing that Obi-Wan confronted was a Force choke (which is damaging, and often brings about unconsciousness); he was flung farther, impacted with a wall harder, fell from a great height, and then buried beneath a balcony.
Hardly the same attacks, and hardly anything close in the amount of damage.
Your point? By your logic on specifications of fighting and how catching opponents off guard is all right, then I guess Obi-Wan > Maul (because he caught him guard, and catching people off guard is part of fighting). Don't even deny it Escape.
Here is the difference, Prodigal. Maul dominated the fight between him, Qui-Gon, and Obi-Wan. He even managed to kill Qui-Gon, during. Then, he Force pushed Obi-Wan into the melting pit. Obi-Wan's kill is not as impressive, nor can it be conjectured that he is superior to Maul because Maul dominated the duel itself.
So, no, I am not saying that anyone who necessarily catches his or her opponent off guard is superior in that instance, but they are when they dominate the fight prior to the act - which is what Maul and Dooku both did.
Duh ta duh, what the hell do you think the Duel in the Chancellor's Office and Duel in the Invisible Hand was???
You're missing the point. Your first comment about Mace and Sidious's duel being different was that they were engaged in a lightsaber duel. That was, indeed, your first remark, and you said it wasn't the same because of that. And, I simply pointed out that the same was with Obi-Wan and Anakin in their fight against Dooku.
Is it I, or is you skill as a debater going down man? Seriously, all I see posted here is a screwed argument ready to be torn apart.
I could point out that your skills remain at a constant level:Suck-level, to be precise, but, like I said. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one.
1.) Umm...if Sidious cannot defend it, then he's going to suffer. The basic point: he was unable to protect himself, so he lost.
That's right; he was incapable of defending himself against Mace's kick, as Obi-Wan was incapable of doing the same to Count Dooku.
2.) When Dooku did in desperation a DIRECT FORCE PUSH at Kenobi, Obi-Wan's endurance and defense makes him fall fifteen feet away uninjured.
Sidious was older, and physically weaker, and he was thrown by a greater distance by a stronger Force user than Obi-Wan, and got up seconds later, uninjured.
Reiterated message: Force pushes, in themselves, are not damaging, especially to Force users - and even more especially - decent Force users.
3.) The movies don't support "fake it"? Does this mean it doesn't show a person not trying? I guess then Dooku was trying really hard against AOTC Anakin. No, at the point when Dooku caught Kenobi off guard, Kenobi wasn’t using his Soresu (he instead went on the offensive, which he is not that great with) and he did not know Dooku is going all out, and ergo he lost.
I'm talking about Revenge of the Sith; AotC Anakin is different, and, yes, the databank, AotC novelization, and Labyrinth of Evil both state that "Skywalker wasn't as easily defeated the second time around".
So, to answer your question, was Dooku fighting with everything he absolutely had against Anakin in Attack of the Clones? No. Hell no. But, he had put up a better fight than Dooku had expected, and the Count had to increase the intensity that they fought in order to comfortably subdue him - which he did.
Caught you!!! First off Escape, since you cannot accept reasoning, I won't even bother arguing with you on that. Apparently your only excuse is “he wasn’t trying, even though I have shown otherwise”. Second, I proved my point. If Dooku did try to toy around and stuff like that, then Kenobi can easily last for a minute +. If Dooku was going all out, Kenobi would last maybe half that time (around 40 seconds). Looks I put my words right into your mouth, lol.
If Dooku toys around. Especially in lightsaber combat? Where have I denied this...? I even recall stating that he would be a problem in sheer lightsaber dueling.
I said, though, if it came to the Force, Obi-Wan doesn't have a prayer.
Likewise, when did you specify that he'd last that long only if he were toying around?
Part 2 out of 3
A.) Dooku was slighty toying around, and his ego was high. Anakin attacked first with Ataru. But he couldn't use Shien due to limited space. Obi-Wan went on the offensive with Ataru or Shii-Cho.
Oh, it goes from just plain old "toying around" to "slightly toying around", now?
Again, the script nor the movie seem to support this.
B.) I think you should first comprehend my definition of "caught off guard" in this situation. Dooku caught Kenobi off guard because he stopped the shit and was going all out and Kenobi didn't realize that. In the case of Mace vs. Sidious, they were both going all out and Mace did a kick which Sidious was unable to block, thus he lost. That's why Mace > Sidious in lightsaber combat.
Ridiculous.
I could easily claim that Obi-Wan "stopped the shit" insofar as lightsaber combat and used an attack that Grievous couldn't exactly defend against - a powerful Force push. That could be construed as catching Grievous off guard.
Anyways, where has this theory of Dooku and the Jedi "toying around"? Anakin was forcing Dooku up the stairs, and you said that he Force pushed Obi-Wan away in desperation.
How can you be desperate if you're toying with someone?
Must've meant that he stopped "toying around" with them after the initial strikes - which does nothing to help your argument whatsoever.
Bottom Line: Obi-Wan never saw much of Dooku going all out except for a Force Push which hardly affected Kenobi. Kenobi thus went up the stairs and going on the offensive, still not realizing that Dooku was going all out now. Thus, this is why Kenobi gets owned. Otherwise, it does not make sense.
Or: They were going full out, Count Dooku realized he couldn't handle them both in a lightsaber duel at the same time, so he pushed Obi-Wan aside to concentrate on Anakin. Obi-Wan, deciding to press this advantage went forth and tried to take the offensive - alongside Anakin - and kill Dooku quickly.
He likely went on the offensive to try to take Dooku out immediately, knowing how powerful he was. Especially since Anakin had Dooku on the defensive, how would Obi-Wan's defensive attacks make any difference to an opponent on the defensive himself?
I wasn't aware that Yoda originally get blasted by Sidious Force Lightning was part of the fight. Yoda never met a Dark Lord of the Sith, so it is natural that he would be caught off guard. I am pretty sure you are not talking about the time Sidious fired Lightning at Yoda's Lightsaber, because that was hardly owning. When Yoda got up (from the first Lighning attack), he Pushed Sidious through the Chancellor's chair. Sidious realized that his opponent wasn't going to be easy so he escapes for the door. Yoda blocks the way out, and the two ignite their sabers and start fighting.
Oh. I see... Yoda had never faced a Dark Lord of the Sith before? Both Sidious and Count Dooku were Dark Lords. The only titular difference between them was "master" and "apprentice". I don't know whether you're arguing out of deception or ignorance, but Yoda had faced a Dark Lord before - once on Geonosis and the second on Vjun, a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force. This was Count Dooku.
In Attack of the Clones, Yoda himself says that arrogance "is a flaw more common among the Jedi. Even the older, more experienced ones."
Do you not think that he himself is immune to that? One of the Jedi's major flaws that led to Sidious eradicating them was corruption and arrogance.
And why are you putting a question out? Obi-Wan couldn't best Dooku, dumbass. His defense, endurance, and his lightsaber skillz will grant him some time, but he's not going to win, but he's not going to get pwned.
Obi-Wan would only be a problem in lightsaber combat. I've said it before. But that is it. Not in Force combat.
"Who said it was to injure him" So Dooku, even though in desperation, decides to calmly Push Kenobi away. Right, nice logic. And the Battle Droids?
Or: Dooku did it to give him some time to concentrate on Anakin, and have his battle droids attack Obi-Wan either as a distraction or a serious hope that they'd injure him.
Your second point is contradictory. Dooku used a sidearm Force Push to knock Kenobi (caught off guard) out.
It was a different attack, Prodigal.
Part 3 out of 3
Yes, I judge from the gestures that followed. Gestures tell you the Force power differential. For example, when Obi-Wan turns around and then delievers a Force Push equates to a much higher strength then a Force Push where the hand just appears before the opponent. And please, watch that scene again. Dooku Chokes Kenobi for about two seconds while he kicks Anakin away. He then throws Kenobi into the platform.
Or: The gesture was used to guide Obi-Wan out from in front of Dooku to fling him into the wall them both. Obi-Wan started out in front of Dooku. Dooku lifted Kenobi, kicked Anakin, and then swung Obi-Wan around to send him crashing into the far wall behind all three of them.
A.) True
Precisely. The choke had, undeniably, the harshest effect.
B.) Really? And even IF that was true, Kenobi was caught off guard by the sea of Force attacks and ergo he was thrown away like that, because if you remember, when he stood in front Dooku headon and took in the Force Push, his defense made him land on the other side of the stairwell.
Or: he was simply overpowered by Dooku's dark side attacks, which Obi-Wan doesn't have a lot of experience with, and has zero versatility with - coupled with Dooku's superior mastery and experienced with the Force.
C.) So? During When They Were Brothers, Kenobi was slammed through the window from an explosion and was still conscious. He has endurance man. That is why he wasn't injured by Dooku's direct Force Push. Kenobi would have gotten up from the Push into the wall, but Dooku dropped a platform on it.
Or: A Force push in itself isn't damaging.
D.) He fell like 5 feet. Big deal, I could withstand that.
Lmao... Count Dooku is six-foot-five, and he could stand, easily, underneath the balcony. That, and Obi-Wan hit the way several feet above the balcony itself, which has just been proven to stand taller than six feet and five inches.
He fell much more than five feet.
E.) Yes, this what made him fully snuffed.
He was unconscious before the balcony hit him.
Maul saw a hole and saw a Padawan nearly on top of him. What does he do? He Pushes him into the hole, avoiding any extra fighting. Smart move Maul. And yes, a Force Push is damaging. Mace Windu used a Force Wave (higher level of Push) to destroy droids on Dantooine. Kenobi used a Force Push to injured Grievous. Dooku used Force Push on Kenobi to remove him from the duel but failed. The second time though, he succeeded by surprising Dooku with a Force Push.
a.) Maul's Force push didn't do damage.
b.) Droids =/= Force users, or biological humans. Force wave > Force push.
c.) Please. Grievous's "injury" was made when he impacted with the wall and fell from a great height. Even then, he wasn't even momentarily stunned.
You don't need offense to win a duel, stupid. Look what happened to ROTS Grievous. Obi-Wan was using Soresu and then disarming when having openings. And did you see how fast Kenobi was with Soresu against Anakin in ROTS during the Mustafar duel? Yes, in a lightsaber duel, Kenobi can give Greivous a helluva fight.
I didn't say that he required it. But, Count Dooku is a skilled defensive and offensive duelist. Grievous wasn't exactly the master of defense.
I counted, it's 1 minute exactly.
If he toys around with Obi-Wan, and then, of course, you have to factor in that Anakin did most of the work, pushing Dooku back.
Sorry, it's 6 seconds. The Force Speed + Jump + Rage is what finished Kolar so quickly. Thus Dooku cannot kill Kenobi in 4 seconds, but instead a minute (you conceded to a minute) plus.
Um... no. Sidious used Force speed and Force jump to get to Agen. It took him a single second to kill Agen, the moment he stepped up to him.
@ Advent:The Feat Wars is used for reference. You often times post your Feat Wars of Dooku is threads.
Assaj Ventress gave Obi-Wan hell in a fight. Dooku put her to her knees by lifting a finger. So... um... yeah. He's a mile above Obi-Wan in the Force. Period.
Well, before we begin, let me make a few things clear with you. I've read your posts, both of them, and they both have a ridiculous amount of insults and scathing remarks in them. You seemed to have picked up The Planet's habit of using the phrase "dumbass". What is really interesting about this, is that you accused me of being a "troll" on this very page.
Let me make some things clear with you Escape:
- You are being a hypocrite. Do not deny that you too have insults in your post Escape. Do not deny that you were being a troll to Planet (“Oh god of debating” need I remind you).
-I have decided a main way to approach your arguments head on is through aggressiveness. My methods are Dun Moch Debating, which seems to be working as its irking you.
-I have called you “dumbass” once. If I did more than once, notify me. If you have a problem with swearing, then tell me.
-Planet’s habit? Planet calls people “dumbasses”? I wasn’t aware of that…
Next don’t expect a reply today. I’m way to busy to refute a 3 post argument.
Originally posted by General Kenobl
The Feat Wars is used for reference. You often times post your Feat Wars of Dooku is threads.
Oh yeah, and I forgot that I actually put said feats into context or, at the least, use them in comparison to another being (e.g. Malak).
I apparently misunderstood since your using the feats for simple "reference" (why, I'd have no idea as they are irrelevant to the argument at this point; which is why it threw me off). By you merely posting them, it seemed to imply that it was supposed to prove something.
But I might as well see what I can do with them.
Was able to send General Grievous literally “flying”. When watching the scene, a rough estimate is that GG was sent 100 feet across and 50 feet high. Clearly an impressive task against a droid general capable of dodging Force attacks.
I guess Shaak Ti is hot shit because she force pushed him through an entire wall! Oh, wait. No, she sucks figurative balls to Count Dooku and would also be pwned by him easily.
"Her Twi'lek Master had once explained to her that sensitivity and fine-tuning came with time. "As a Padawan," he had said, "I could push boulders around with ease, but seeds were next to impossible." (Shadow Hunter, Chp. 23)
A padawan Annon Bondara was able to move boulders around without much difficulty. So, I really don't see what's impressive about flinging a non-Force using being the length a master Kenobi did.
It's not that much of an "impressive task" given that General Grievous can't a) defend against force attacks and b) can't predict them. As Escape has already pointed out, CW Grievous =/= RotS Grievous. Furthermore, if you add to the fact that Obi-Wan and Grievous were engaged in a saberlock, and thusly deadlocked, its value as a feat becomes considerably less impressive (if we were to assume he can dodge attacks).
Was able to crumble a retainer that held a ton of metal. Obi-Wan disintegrated the retainer and then directed the ton onto the Magnaguards coming at him.
1. He didn't direct it, he merely removed the restraint with the Force and gravity did the rest. We don't see the thing moving whatsoever other than falling directly down. If you actually want this bullshit to pass for a feat, then provide evidence to support your claims. I don't see any so far, and I'm using the Hubble telescope!
2. Not that impressive.
See the following
See the following:
If Mundi, who was never renowned for his strength in the force (not to say he wasn't strong; just for the record), could do this while being injured (he had broken his arm prior; albeit healed it a little) and definitely drained of strength, I really don't see what's so impressive about it. Even in regards to Count Dooku considering he would curbstomp Ki-Adi in the force.
^Just like Kenobi.
Anyways...
I counted, it's 1 minute exactly.
If you're referring to the Anakin and Obi-Wan vs. Dooku fight, then I'd question your ability to time things. For simple purposes, the duel between those three only lasts about 40 seconds. This is counting from as soon as they engage in bladed combat to the point when Kenobi is suspended in the air (at this point, he's already been defeated; if you want to add the time it took Dooku to drop the balcony, it's an extra 10 seconds).
Of course, that's disregarding the fact that Obi-Wan was out of the picture for a rough 15 seconds, and the 10 seconds of talking after their initial charge.
o, at the point when Dooku caught Kenobi off guard, Kenobi wasn’t using his Soresu (he instead went on the offensive, which he is not that great with) and he did not know Dooku is going all out, and ergo he lost.
By this "astounding" logic, Obi-Wan doesn't use Soresu in AotC either, simply beause he attacks Dooku.
You'll just have to realize that because Obi-Wan had to use one offensive move against Dooku it doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't using Soresu. Do you actually have any proof that Soresu is 100% defensive in all of its maneuvers, and that the user is incapable of employing one offensive attack? Please.
By what the novelization states, Obi-Wan switched to Soresu. There's no mention of him switching back or even going easy afterwards; in fact, he seems to stop going easy once he switches to Soresu. This would be indicated by what the narrator has said in regards to it and Dooku's thoughts:
"Dooku found himself having a sudden, unexpected, overpowering, and entirely distressing bad feeling about this...His farce had suddenly, inexplicably, spun from humorous to deadly serious and was tumbling rapidly toward terrifying. Realization burst through Dooku's consciousness like the blossoming fireballs of dying ships outside: this pair of Jedi fools had somehow managed to become entirely dangerous. These clowns might - just possibly - actually be able to beat him. No sense in taking chances" (Revenge of the Sith, Chp. 3)
So, I don't know how he couldn't have known Dooku was going "all out" when he decides to go all out himself by switching to Soresu, and the entire reason for Kenobi being force pushed was because Dooku had gotten dead serious.
Like Escape said, you really have no authority to dictate what these characters are thinking, especially when it's not backed up by viable evidence.
Anakin attacked first with Ataru. But he couldn't use Shien due to limited space
Why the hell would Shien require room? Proof? In any case, he used a "Shien-ready stance" and the gymnastics of Ataru:
"Skywalker brought his lightsaber to a Shien ready[...]"
Dooku caught Kenobi off guard because he stopped the shit and was going all out and Kenobi didn't realize that.
Proof? Oh yeah, you don't have any to back up this ass-ertion. Kenobi was seemingly going all out as indicated by the fact Dooku decided to not mess around anymore; you'd think that if he (Obi-Wan) was still pussyfooting around, then Dooku wouldn't have much of a reason to turn from smiles and giggles to frowns and doubt.
Is it I, or is you skill as a debater going down man? Seriously, all I see posted here is a screwed argument ready to be torn apart.
Wow, I'm impressed. You're taking a page out of Nebaris' handbook, and applying it here. Funny! Although, when Nebaris says it, it's usually not true. I'd go so far to say the same case is occuring here.
With that being said, you may be a "Prodigal Knight", but you sure as hell aren't a prodigal debater (silly, I know; but I had to say it).
If all you see is a "screwed argument" that's "ready to be torn apart" (by whom? You? LOL!), then you might want to equip some spectacles, pal. Christmas is coming up, Mama Motoko™ might get you a pair if you're good.
"Who said it was to injure him" So Dooku, even though in desperation, decides to calmly Push Kenobi away. Right, nice logic.
What Escape was saying, and what you fail to take into consider as the point flew over your head like Superman, is that who's actually saying that Dooku was trying to permanently remove Kenobi at this point? No one is.
It is highly probable that he merely wanted to break up the fight because he couldn't contain them both at the same time. If you take note immediately after he is force pushed, Anakin was right behind him, so how is he going to use a truly incapacitating attack?
Short answer: He's not.
As we later see, when he has time, he takes Kenobi out. For good. When he doesn't have to worry about Anakin (in the sense that he wasn't fighting).
Do not deny that you were being a troll to Planet (“Oh god of debating” need I remind you).
He doesn't need to deny a false claim against him.
Captain Planet is a troll himself, and his words regarding Escape's post were inciting enough. He says they aren't "too hard" to disprove since he's wrong. Well, if that were the actual case, you'd think someone who literally has claimed to be better than "99% of the forum" would dismantle them.
Which is funny if he actually thinks he's better than me. 😆
Planet’s habit? Planet calls people “dumbasses”? I wasn’t aware of that…
That's rather funny considering The Planet called you a dumbass in this thread, and you responded to it:
Originally posted by The Planet
Don't call me kid, dumbass.
He's also said about jollyjim, and Subjekt, too. Off the top of my head.
- You are being a hypocrite. Do not deny that you too have insults in your post Escape. Do not deny that you were being a troll to Planet (“Oh god of debating” need I remind you).
Trying to avoid the accusations of hypocrisy yourself by trying to point me out as a hypocrite?
I don't deny that I have insults in my posts. But, when have I called you stupid or when have I insulted your intelligence. At most, I've called you a fanboy.
Secondly, I don't know where the hell you have been, but I find it highly amusing that you have ignored his actions. Go to my profile to see some "trolling" from him.
Painting me as the bad guy is a nice attack and all, but it is hardly going to work. 😉
-I have decided a main way to approach your arguments head on is through aggressiveness. My methods are Dun Moch Debating, which seems to be working as its irking you.
Lmao. You nor The Planet have irked me insofar as made me angry or annoyed. But I do find it disheartening that you insult my intelligence though I have not done the same to you.
But, hey, that's fine. You can expect to get the same treatment back.
-I have called you “dumbass” once. If I did more than once, notify me. If you have a problem with swearing, then tell me.
The whole problem is that I am not a dumbass. I'm sure that we can get the public's opinion on our intellects, the both of us. Appealing to the public, I suppose, but I wonder what they'd have to say.
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Planet’s habit? Planet calls people “dumbasses”? I wasn’t aware of that…
That doesn't surprise me. You weren't aware of his "trolling" either, despite how blatant it was.
Next don’t expect a reply today. I’m way to busy to refute a 3 post argument.
Use that time to make a better response. If I may paraphrase you, all I've seen is an argument waiting to be torn apart.
Trying to avoid the accusations of hypocrisy yourself by trying to point me out as a hypocrite?I don't deny that I have insults in my posts. But, when have I called you stupid or when have I insulted your intelligence. At most, I've called you a fanboy.
Secondly, I don't know where the hell you have been, but I find it highly amusing that you have ignored his actions. Go to my profile to see some "trolling" from him.
Painting me as the bad guy is a nice attack and all, but it is hardly going to work
I know I insult people. I know that you insult people. And you have called me stupid before (the same argument, except earlier when you refused to debate me on the idea that it was stupid), and you have called me a fanboy, which I am surely not.
And second of all, I have debated the Planet before. I know he insults his opponents, but none of them were so overwhelming bad.
And I am not painting you as the bad guy, I am just telling the truth.
Lmao. You nor The Planet have irked me insofar as made me angry or annoyed. But I do find it disheartening that you insult my intelligence though I have not done the same to you.But, hey, that's fine. You can expect to get the same treatment back.
If I insulted your intelligence, then I am sorry. If you find it offensive, I will stop.
The whole problem is that I am not a dumbass. I'm sure that we can get the public's opinion on our intellects, the both of us. Appealing to the public, I suppose, but I wonder what they'd have to say.
OMFG Escape, seriously chill. Dude, when a person calls another kid a dumbass, it does not mean they really are a dumbass. It's just an insult to the person when he says something stupid that the insultor finds idiotic. Your rebuttal seemed quite pointless to me so much that I felt that calling you a dumbass seems fit. If you feel really that bad about it, fine sorry.
Appealing to public opinion is a logical fallacy and means shit to me.
That doesn't surprise me. You weren't aware of his "trolling" either, despite how blatant it was.
Planet and I debated, we gave each other our dose of trolling, and everything civilized. I don't take insults to heart.
Use that time to make a better response. If I may paraphrase you, all I've seen is an argument waiting to be torn apart.
Yes, I have the time to type this up. But a 3-paged argument takes too much thinking and time. "Argument waiting to be torn apart" LMAO 😄
