Heres some scans which are a good refernce to where Starfures strength to be at.
http://img225.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img225&image=168155xo.jpg
(notice Donna said she since starfire left she hasn't had anyone "strong enough to practice agianst)
now later in that scan Donna says that Starfire would always beat her.
Now imo opinion that puts Starfire at >= the Strength level of Donna who in y opinion is a mid level to low level class one hundred
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
That doesn't refer to strength, neccessarily. I think it is more like referring to fighting skills.
Okay but shes on an island filled with well trained warriors there are tons of people who would give her a good fight in terms of skills.
The way she says that wouldn't make sense for skills
for strength it would though 馃槈
Originally posted by Devil Lance
Okay but shes on an island filled with well trained warriors there are tons of people who would give her a good fight in terms of skills.The way she says that wouldn't make sense for skills
for strength it would though 馃槈
Yeah... but she's more skilled then most of the rest of the island. That's why she's saying she hasn't had anyone 'strong enough' since Starfire left.
Still a great scan for Starfire, though
Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Yeah... but she's more skilled then most of the rest of the island. That's why she's saying she hasn't had anyone 'strong enough' since Starfire left.Still a great scan for Starfire, though
so your saying Donna is more skilled than Hippolyta who has lived for thousands of years and Artemis, and Philipus who also has lived for thousands of years
Hipoplyta is just as skiled in not more than donna
馃槈
Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
But does Hippolyta regularly spar with the others?
Well shes dead now she die dduring Our worlds at war
but she did fight pople regulary
she sparred with the other a,azons
She beat Herkales
She went to America in the 1940s and fought with the JSA and she spareed with their members
She wa son the presnt JSA and she sparred with them which had fighting experts like Wildcat, Black Canary, Dr Mid nite, and Mr. terific all very skilled fighters.
Originally posted by Devil Lance
First of don't go by feat written by Jeph loebHe's the amzing writer who had superman break Wonder Woam's aegis braclets
whcih have withstood a blast from anm entir epantheon of gods
http://img91.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img91&image=ww21deflection34yb.jpg
http://img91.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img91&image=ww21deflection40gj.jpg
http://img213.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img213&image=ww21deflection53pu.jpg
apparently Superman> an entire pantheon of gods
yep theres a writer who knows lots about the characters hes writing 馃檮
And Phil Jiminez wrote WW saying her bracelets couldn't protect her indefinitely from Superman's punches. Seems to me her bracelts just aren't as tough against blunt force as they are against energy.
now you say Namor has beaten peole who could beat ww I dissagree.
Look who ww has stalemated or beaten
CM after he had sucker punched her
http://img9.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img9&image=WaroftheGods01_24.jpg
http://img9.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img9&image=WaroftheGods01_32.jpg
http://img74.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img74&image=WaroftheGods01_35.jpg
This is easily matched by Namor's fights with Thor, which can be found in Dark Crawler's respect thread. Also, in their other fight (Underworld Unleashed#3), a weakened CM got the better of WW and left her stunned, stealing her lasso within a few panels. Namor's record against Thor, Surfer, Hulk, etc. is better than WW's record against CM.
a white martian
http://img295.echo.cx/my.php?image=jla00411n0qb.jpg
http://img295.echo.cx/my.php?image=jla00414b1lm.jpg
Good, but like I said, this was mainly skill. Another White Martian one shotted her earlier in the story, and she got handled by a WM again in Terror Incognita. So that's two losses and one win for WW against them. Also, J'onn's brother Malefic handled WW easily, and she was stunned by being NEAR his blast (she blocked it with her bracelets, but still got stunned). According to Superman, the blast could've killed her if it landed.
WW's overall record against White Martians doesn't impress me beyond what Namor has done against top tiers in Marvel. Aside from the one time she tied Primaid in her lasso and outlasted her in space, WW's pretty much gotten owned by Martians.
Kabalik
http://img176.echo.cx/my.php?image=act600pre10ml.jpg
http://img176.echo.cx/my.php?image=act600pre20gh.jpg
http://img296.echo.cx/my.php?image=act600pre37wm.jpg
An incredibly short fight, where all Kalibak was doing was luring her into Darkseid's trap. And if you notice, Kalibak's nonchalant backhand has more effect on WW than her hammer blow has on him. Going by that, Kalibak actually looks stronger per this issue. This is far from a good reference to use to try to prove she's superior to Namor.
Superman
http://img300.echo.cx/my.php?image=act600bat16nd.jpg
http://img300.echo.cx/my.php?image=act600bat26zp.jpg
http://img300.echo.cx/my.php?image=act600bat34uw.jpg
http://img41.echo.cx/my.php?image=action600bat46ym.jpg
http://img41.echo.cx/my.php?image=action600bat51pr.jpg
... You're using a staged fight as evidence???
Originally posted by Devil Lance
and if thats still not enough
Heres some scans from JLA/ Avengers which is considered cannon in the DCU as it has been mentioned sevral timeWW vs Marvel Hercules
http://img195.echo.cx/my.php?image=jlaavengers2wwherc11rl.jpg
http://img149.echo.cx/my.php?image=jlaavengers2wwherc26ic.jpg
http://img149.echo.cx/my.php?image=jlaavengers2wwherc37mn.jpg
http://img225.echo.cx/my.php?image=jlaavengers2wwherc43an.jpg
That's pretty good. This is easily WW's best slugging feat. Namor, however, has done similarly against Thor and The Hulk.
Originally posted by Devil Lance
Now heres quite a big feat
all thes heroes could not break one of Quasar's constructhttp://img237.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img237&image=quaze14fc.jpg
but WW can
http://img145.echo.cx/my.php?image=sconstructs7tx.jpg
Are you really comparing the two? Quasar's construct strength depends on his concentration. In IW, Wendell had time to sit there and concentrate. In Avengers/JLA, he had no idea who WW was or what her powers were. He's stated in the past how he doesn't make his constructs as strong as he can if he doesn't know the strength level of his opponent (see his Gladiator fight in Operation Galactic Storm).
It's a good feat, but not better than Namor breaking the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak (which have always held The Hulk). Additionally, you left out that she was stunned by a single blast from Iron Man. Recently, Namor took a blast from IM to no effect.
Originally posted by Devil Lance
Heres WW beating the entire Wrecking Crew
http://img252.echo.cx/my.php?image=jlaavengers4wwbeatingwreckingc.jpg
Impressive, but She-Hulk's done the same thing.
Originally posted by Devil Lancelastly from JLA avengers
heres WW taking down Fing Fang Foom
http://img245.echo.cx/my.php?image=jlaavengers1beatingfinfangfoom.jpg
http://img241.echo.cx/my.php?image=jlaavengers1finfangfoombeatenb.jpg
That was never stated to be FFF. I took it to be another monster or dragon from the island.
Originally posted by Devil Lancenow heres her stat sheet from the Omac project
http://img247.echo.cx/my.php?image=countdowntoinfinitecrisis12013.jpg
and heres Supermanshttp://img247.echo.cx/my.php?image=countdowntoinfinitecrisis01200.jpg
... You're using a stat sheet as evidence? Namor has been called The Hulk's equal in strength and has a reputation for beating him. I think that's easily a match for WW's "#2" hoopla.
Originally posted by Devil Lance
and lastly heres WW vs a couple Omacs
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/56/12052005022655am2ci.jpg
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8320/12052005023106am1lq.jpg
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7938/12052005023302am7wc.jpg
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2033/12052005023526am0zf.jpg
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/5421/12052005023752am4xg.jpg
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6292/12052005023752am7be.jpg
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2150/12052005023937am6mu.jpg
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3072/12052005024107am0ig.jpg
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1632/12052005024213am2os.jpg
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6803/12052005024323am0sx.jpg
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6205/12052005024438am4sq.jpg
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/9369/12052005024526am5qx.jpg
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/9369/12052005024526am5qx.jpg
A decent feat, but I could easily see Namor doing the same, especially given how much OMACs varied in power. In one issue, three of them got one-shotted by armored Lex Luthor.
Originally posted by Devil LanceWW holding back vs Blood Lusted Superman
http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman175101ng.jpghttp://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman175149zc.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman175157gc.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman175164vu.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman175195fa.jpg
http://img311.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman175263rn.jpg
http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman175290qq.jpg
http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman175304cl.jpg
http://img333.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman175327qf.jpg
Um, WW was holding back? Where was this stated? She said that she wanted to keep hittinh him until he drops, and she even resorted to a low blow. If she was concerned with hurting him, why would she be using cheap methods like kicking him in the nuts?
Honestly, this fight hurts WW's case, IMO. It supports her skill being superior, but I've NEVER seen Namor get physically dominated like that by a top tier. Well, barring one of his fights with The Hulk, but that was a REALLY angry Hulk (The Hulk was taking Surfer's blasts to no effect and owning him in that issue). She was fearing DEATH being hit a couple more times by Supes. Namor shrugs off Mjolnor hits. I mean, you can bring up the fact that Supes was bloodlusted, but Powergirl did much better against a bloodlusted, mind-controlled Supes.
As for the feats, again, Iron Man destroyed a rock the size of Manhattan in his fight against Terrax. Namor has always been portrayed as equal to or stronger than IM.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Sorry, but...Wonder Woman is defenitely stronger then Namor...I should know...
I disagree. There are only 4 ways you could come to the conclusion that WW is significantly stronger, IMO:
1. You beleive DC's top tiers are better than Marvel's
2. You disregard Namor's strength relative to Marvel's top tiers and simply point out his lack of lifting feats
3. You say WW's stronger due to her "second to Superman" monicker
4. You simply are ignorant of their histories
If you compare how he does against Thor, Hulk, Iron Man, Super Skrull, Surfer, etc. to how she does against Superman, Captain Marvel, Etrigan, Martians, and so on, I don't see how you could possibly say she looked much stronger. Much less more durable.
actually if she wanted to she would have killed him. All she wanted to do was to stay alive and that becomes quite obvious as she slits his throat with her tiara. if she wanted she could have killed him. and secondly i highly doubt you know anything about Namor compared to DC. He's why we even think Namor is toptier. He created and did 99% of the Respect thread.
Originally posted by Jimmy-ChanDid you just say Darkcrawler disregards Namor's strength and doesn't know his history? What are you smokin'?
I disagree. There are only 4 ways you could come to the conclusion that WW is significantly stronger, IMO:1. You beleive DC's top tiers are better than Marvel's
2. You disregard Namor's strength relative to Marvel's top tiers and simply point out his lack of lifting feats
3. You say WW's stronger due to her "second to Superman" monicker
4. You simply are ignorant of their histories
If you compare how he does against Thor, Hulk, Iron Man, Super Skrull, Surfer, etc. to how she does against Superman, Captain Marvel, Etrigan, Martians, and so on, I don't see how you could possibly say she looked much stronger. Much less more durable.
Alright, borrowing some scans from DarkCrawler's respect thread.
Namor breaks the Crimson Bands, which have always held The Hulk (barring one occasion when Strange was weakened; they've always held when he was at full power):
http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/5821/namorfeat12bo.gif
http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/4775/namorfeat23wb.gif
Namor wrestles The Hulk into the water:
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/7674/avengers003173hf.jpg
The second underwater win vs. The Hulk:
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/2563/incrediblehulk118187ji.jpg
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/3936/incrediblehulk118195ly.jpg
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/9269/incrediblehulk118200el.jpg
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/4384/incrediblehulk118211kg.jpg
Third win against The Hulk, albeit this time using the environment (and I'll admit that The Hulk had the advantage for most of the fight, but it was no worse than the strength advantage Superman generally displays over WW):
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/8007/namorfeat265gs.gif
Namor takes the force of a minature nuke:
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/6527/namorfeat295yp.gif
Namor vs. Apocalypse:
http://img104.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorvspoccy35qm.jpg
http://img104.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorvspoccy49pc.jpg
http://img104.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorvspoccy53gj.jpg
Table jobbing aside, the fact that he could go toe-to-toe with Apoc is impressive. Apoc is a guy who's manhandled The Hulk, got She-Hulk to stand down with a simple choke, was barely phased by Exodus' blasts, easily bent or broke Sue Richards' force feild, got the better of Prime Eternal Ikarus, taken Black Bolt's scream, etc. On average, I'd still rank Apoc above top tier strength, even with his recent jobbings.
Namor owns Super-Skrull:
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/7346/namorfeat475ib.gif
Namor defeats Captain Mar-Vell:
http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=submariner30030tz.jpg
http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=submariner30043jd.jpg
Namor takes The Human Torch's fire (just to show that fire isn't an auto-win against him; Torch is a guy who can hurt The Thing or She-Hulk with his blasts):
http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/9233/namorfeat41zp.gif
Namor owns Iron Man:
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/5295/namorfeat594gj.gif
Namor vs. Thor. Thor holds the advantage IMO, but he started the fight with a surprise attack and seemed to be the aggressor. Especially a good durability showing for Namor:
http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorvsthor13er.gif
http://img466.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorvsthor28gf.gif
http://img466.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorvsthor34rr.gif
http://img466.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorvsthor41dv.gif
http://img466.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorvsthor57vi.gif
The time Namor claims he's The Hulk's equal in strength on land (the actual slugfest was more or less even as well, so his claim per that issue wasn't that far-fetched):
http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/3738/hulknamorspeed3uu.gif
Brief skirmish with Hercules. Nothing conclusive, but their strength appears to be at or near the same class:
http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/6205/namovsherc15ts.gif
http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/7918/namovsherc24lo.gif
Namor vs. The Silver Surfer:
http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorss17mt.gif
http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorss28kg.gif
http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorss32qq.gif
Another fight between Namor and Surfer. Namor was the aggressor, but the fact that his attacks on Surfer had as much effect as vice versa is still pretty good:
http://img326.imageshack.us/img326/5047/defenders002013nm.jpg
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/6333/defenders00202036vz.jpg
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5285/defenders002049eu.jpg
http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/8946/defenders002053ez.jpg
http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/5328/defenders002062ig.jpg
Namor also has other impressive showings against some of these. He's stalemated Herc on land, ditto Hulk (may get the full scans for that one soon), and wrestled Thor's hammer away from him on one occasion. Recently, he also wrecked Iron Man hardcore. Oh, and he matched Radioactive Man in a slugfest in Thunderbolts. May get around to getting the scans for these myself, if I can't find them in DarkCrawler's thread.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Did you just say Darkcrawler disregards Namor's strength and doesn't know his history? What are you smokin'?
... Um, that's putting words in my mouth. I said people who see WW as significantly stronger than Namor likely fit into one of these four categories. Not all four of them. And it's also entirely possible than DarkCrawler's knowledge of Namor's lower showings, couple with his ignorance of WW's own low showings is the reason why. Or it could just be that he's influenced by board hype. He'd have to clarify his reasoning himself.
As for me personally, I'm very familiar with both WW and Namor's high and low strength showings, and I see their strength as essentially equal. Sometimes I sway to one or the other, but it's extremely close. Both of them are strong enough to give top tiers great fights consistently, but look noticably weaker on average.
Originally posted by Superherovandal
actually if she wanted to she would have killed him. All she wanted to do was to stay alive and that becomes quite obvious as she slits his throat with her tiara. if she wanted she could have killed him. and secondly i highly doubt you know anything about Namor compared to DC. He's why we even think Namor is toptier. He created and did 99% of the Respect thread.
1. Because it slit his throat doesn't mean she could've killed him. He took a similar throat slit during Loeb's run on S/B and WON the fight. The neck slit simply slowed him down long enough for her to break the mind control. If anything, Superman could've killed her when she was lying on the ground for over a page if his greif wasn't clouding his judgement and he had just went for the kill instead of standing there and making a speech. Besides which, how does her tiara cutting Superman, who's been cut by lots of magic objects, prove she's stronger?
2. DC's top tiers are not stronger than Marvel's. You can find feats between mountain smashing and planet busting for both, but on average they're even. Namor would do as well against DC's top tiers as he does against Marvel's, IMO.
