Marvel Universe: THE END Discussion Thread

Originally posted by Mr Master
The real LT does not,

this Past Reflection, which is Not the real LT is an M-body, for the single purpose of replaying these meaningless events that have already taken place in the Past.

doesn't make sense to me. he is granted an mbody just to replay a scene? when he never uses them? how would the fractals know how to create him? it works if he WAS an mbody at the meeting.

Why would the Real LT be presiding over Ghosts?

i think those mbodies are what is left after the abstracts leave them and take most of their power back. maybe there is residual energy left in an mbody that has been used? i don't know. it's unanswerable save for speculation.

If that event already happened in the Past, then obviously those can't be the actual Concepts or individuals in the Present.

OR is Pre-retcon Beyonder still around?

And is Warlock still wielding the Infinity Gauntlet?

See that doesn't really make sense IMO brother Leon.

time is meaningless in the d of m. past and present exist simultaneously. so in effect they DO still exist. i like the idea of ghosts left behind after the abstracts go on though.

So you believe that was the real Physical Warlock?

So then you must believe he still has the Infinity Gauntlet.

in the past he does. in the d of m he does because past and present are co-existent. any way you look at it though it still seems wrong. if you're interpretation is right, fractals make mbodies for entities who don't USE mbodies at all for the sole purpose of replaying some scene. if MY interpretation is correct, then adam warlock must have been an mbody. that doesn't seem too unreasonable to me, given the nature of his power but i don't really like that idea any more than i like yours. 😬

as the Realm exists Outside of normal time, this enables visitors to witness Past Events"

or this could mean that as far as the d of m is concerned we simply throw out the rule book and say they DO exist there, in the past. i don't know, and any attempt at explanation -- yours or mine -- is an effort to force fit a pre-existing theory.

Can you show me any instance where LT is stated to "Represent Multiversal Balance?"

yeah, i should be able to find the quote. somewhere. i hope.

Originally posted by leonidas
doesn't make sense to me. he is granted an mbody just to replay a scene? when he never uses them?

That's my opinion.

Originally posted by leonidas
how would the fractals know how to create him?

Fractals can take any form they wish.

The m-body is just a form, without the Sentience & Life-Force it's just Fractals.

Originally posted by leonidas
it works if he WAS an mbody at the meeting.

I disagree.

Originally posted by leonidas
i think those mbodies are what is left after the abstracts leave them and take most of their power back. maybe there is residual energy left in an mbody that has been used? i don't know. it's unanswerable save for speculation.

I disagree, but Fair enough.

Originally posted by leonidas
time is meaningless in the d of m. past and present exist simultaneously. so in effect they DO still exist.

I understand the logic they're trying to make us grasp, but it's impossible.

I'll never accept Beyonder in a restaurant back in 1985, as a simultaneous event with events taking place in 2007.

Originally posted by leonidas
i like the idea of ghosts left behind after the abstracts go on though.

It does have a nice ring to it.

Originally posted by leonidas
in the past he does. in the d of m he does because past and present are co-existent.

I can't accept that Warlock still has the IG, simply because a Past Reflection of himself and the event is being needlessly and meaninglessly played over and over again.

Originally posted by leonidas
any way you look at it though it still seems wrong. if you're interpretation is right, fractals make mbodies for entities who don't USE mbodies at all for the sole purpose of replaying some scene.

Only way it makes sense to me.

Originally posted by leonidas
if MY interpretation is correct, then adam warlock must have been an mbody. that doesn't seem too unreasonable to me, given the nature of his power but i don't really like that idea any more than i like yours.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by leonidas
or this could mean that as far as the d of m is concerned we simply throw out the rule book and say they DO exist there, in the past. i don't know, and any attempt at explanation -- yours or mine -- is an effort to force fit a pre-existing theory.

So this part of the discussion hit a standstill.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, i should be able to find the quote. somewhere. i hope.

😉

Originally posted by Mr Master

So this part of the discussion hit a standstill.

meh, it IS still comics. i guess it was BOUND to break down at some level or other. 🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master
There's my Proof.

Can you show me or direct me to yours?

"LT represents multiversal balance" ( as in embodies like an Abstract)

conducted a small search and couldn't find the proof to back-up that particular belief. i'll keep looking, but it would be a HELL of a lot easier if someone, somewhere on the web actually put together a bibliography of character appearances . . . 🙁

anyway, i DID find the proof that backs up my claim that LT is an abstract entity -- and that is what i was trying to get at in any event.

i thought (and still do think) that LT represents multiversal balance. like i said, i'll continue to look for that particular bit of proof. but, that aside for a time, we also know that LT's faces represent 3 seperate concepts -- equity, necessity and vengeance. each face is an essentially an abstract entity. there was something interesting at marvel.com about what the faces represent and how they are manifested in each universe. this from marvel.com:

The Tribunal appears as a giant golden man with three cloaked faces which each revolve to the front to speak. The three faces are what make up the Tribunal. They are: Equity, Necessity, and Vengeance. These represent the trinity of aspects of each universe. For example, in the main universe they are represented by Galactus (Equity), Eternity (Necessity), and Death (Vengeance).

that is a pretty cool take. gives an additional meaning to each of the entities above.

anyway, my claim was that LT referred to quasar as a 'PHYSICAL' because LT himself was an abstract entity. as an abstract entity he would need to use an m-body to interact with physicals -- like all abstracts need to do.

in the scan above LT HIMSELF states he is an abstract entity. marvel says his faces are representations of universal aspects, and even the site you seem to have taken a little liking to:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/anthropo.htm

verifies that LT is NOT a physical being, but rather he is an abstract/non-physical entity. (under AFFILIATIONS, LT is listed as one of the abstract allies of anthropomorpho).

with all this, hopefully you can agree that LT is INDEED an abstract/conceptual being. 🙂

You two are still going at it?

And, by the way, I think LT uses M-bodies also.

Originally posted by illadelph12
And, by the way, I think LT uses M-bodies also.

😄

and i wouldn't say "going at it:. more like . . . discussing some things.

🙂

Originally posted by leonidas
with all this, hopefully you can agree that LT is INDEED an abstract/conceptual being.

I agree.

I researched it myself, LT is an Abstract entity that uses M-bodys.

Now,

IMO, the evidence that I have found and read here all points to the M-body being the Full Power of the Abstract it represents.

You were never able to find concrete evidence of Two M-bodies of the same Abstract existing simultaneously in two separate locations.

(The Eternity within Eternity bit, for me doesn't count) 🙂

You had a good argument on the LT Reflection noticing Quasar,

that being something to the effect of,

it gave Anomaly an Off-Panel telepathic order to chase off Quasar, (cause it was never seen)

but in fact,

Now you must agree that LT did not order Anomaly to attack Quasar:

(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2006)

"the Abstract Entity Anomaly prevents outsiders from interfering in events which have technically already occurred"

I knew it was his automatic duty.

I posted this scan many times and never realized it said it right there.

Which leads back to my interpretation of the event.

Those Past Reflections are one of Two things:

Either Fractals in the Form of the Concepts' M-body appearance, acting out the Past in order for it to be accessible to would be spectators, at the same time perhaps (I'll specualate a bit) they place their younger Fractals to play out these meaningless repetitive scenerios to acquire training for more serious assingments.

Or still Fractals in the Form of the Concepts' M-body appearance, but with an iota of an iota of the Concepts residue/memory/essence, just enough to play out the scene accurately or whatever.

In both instances they should be able to Notice Quasar though if they wanted, because they are after all Alive with or without the Concept they manifest.

IMO 😄

Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree.

I researched it myself, LT is an Abstract entity that uses M-bodys.

partytime

Now,

IMO, the evidence that I have found and read here all points to the M-body being the Full Power of the Abstract it represents.

You were never able to find concrete evidence of Two M-bodies of the same Abstract existing simultaneously in two separate locations.

(The Eternity within Eternity bit, for me doesn't count) 🙂

that's fine. it's still your opinion. 🙂 you know i disagree. i'm still a wee bit unclear one one point though: if you claim mbodies are full power representations, how do you explain every LT mbody possessing full-power? you yourself agree with the notion that LT has representation in every universe. how are they ALL full power? and if they are ALL full power, what happened to all the others when thanos absorbed LT?

You had a good argument on the LT Reflection noticing Quasar,

that being something to the effect of,

it gave Anomaly an Off-Panel telepathic order to chase off Quasar, (cause it was never seen)

but in fact,

Now you must agree that LT did not order Anomaly to attack Quasar:

(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2006)

"the Abstract Entity Anomaly prevents outsiders from interfering in events which have technically already occurred"

I knew it was his automatic duty.

I posted this scan many times and never realized it said it right there.

but your scan says it prevents beings from interfering. quasar had ALREADY interfered. before anomaly showed up lt had ALREADY addressed quasar. we've discussed the possible nature of these reflections, and sort of decided it's really impossible to say just WHAT they are. but one thing is for certain -- they ARE more than simply reflections of the past. they can (or at least that version of LT is capable) of interacting with 'spectators'. so while i agree that anomaly seems to have been given the 'guardian' tag, i'm not sure exactly what it proves anymore as the interaction had ALREADY occurred. lt's 'summoning' of anomaly would have been only one more piece of interaction.

Which leads back to my interpretation of the event.

Those Past Reflections are one of Two things:

Either Fractals in the Form of the Concepts' M-body appearance, acting out the Past in order for it to be accessible to would be spectators, at the same time perhaps (I'll specualate a bit) they place their younger Fractals to play out these meaningless repetitive scenerios to acquire training for more serious assingments.

can't rule that out.

Or still Fractals in the Form of the Concepts' M-body appearance, but with an iota of an iota of the Concepts residue/memory/essence, just enough to play out the scene accurately or whatever.

i like this better except for the fact that it seems to imply warlock was also possessed of an m-body. 😬

In both instances they should be able to Notice Quasar though if they wanted, because they are after all Alive with or without the Concept they manifest.

IMO 😄

agreed. 👆

Originally posted by leonidas
if you claim mbodies are full power representations, how do you explain every LT mbody possessing full-power?

What every LT?

When have you seen more than one at a time?

Originally posted by leonidas
you yourself agree with the notion that LT has representation in every universe.

how are they ALL full power?

"I agreed?"

I always said,

There is only one Living Tribunal according to Marvel the Company

(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2006)

"The LT has NO Counter-Parts ... ONLY ONE LT exists in the Multiverse"

On Panel verification

"The LT Exists in ALL Multiverses simultaneously"

Originally posted by leonidas
and if they are ALL full power, what happened to all the others when thanos absorbed LT?

(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2006)

"The LT has NO Counter-Parts ... ONLY ONE LT exists in the Multiverse"

"with all this, hopefully you can agree"

that there is only ONE LT, ONE M-body,

that's in every Universe simultaneously.

Originally posted by leonidas
so while i agree that anomaly seems to have been given the 'guardian' tag, i'm not sure exactly what it proves anymore as the interaction had ALREADY occurred. lt's 'summoning' of anomaly would have been only one more piece of interaction.

As you wish.

I'll agree with you agreeing with the Anomaly being a D of M guard,

like the Official Handbook states.

"with all this, hopefully you can agree"

that there is only ONE LT, ONE M-body,

that's in every Universe simultaneously.

so then you agree there is a manifestation of lt in every universe?

Originally posted by leonidas
so then you agree there is a manifestation of lt in every universe?

The same Manifestation that's in 616,

is in the other end of the Multiverse in Universe 34022.

It's the same Manifestation everywhere, no Counters and no power fluxes.

Originally posted by leonidas
and where did you get that little tidbit of info . . .?

and x: you may be right. basically i think only thanos REMEMBERS the events of the END though. so to other characters it's as though the events never happened. but again, unless someone has definitive proof to show it's non-canon, it IS canon. there were editors' comments floating around, but i'm pretty sure if you looked at the date of the comments, the thanos issue came out AFTER said comments were made.

In my opinion, Marvel the End if just a modern re-make of the Infinity Gauntlet, but they wanted to hype it even further by adding the Shock Factor of having Thanos absorb the Living Tribunal.

Whether it is 616 canon or not, whichever reality this took place in, Thanos became one with the ultimate power (atleast by all current standards).

However, it, to me, is too much like IG. The entire Universe gets involved to do battle with Thanos.

There would be no need for Living Tribunal to use an "M-Body", since he is Judgement personified. He would not need to "fight", his judgements are backed up by the power of TOAA, so his involvement in The End meant that Thanos was truly so powerful that even LT needed to battle.

If Living Tribunal truly intended for Thanos to be stopped, he wouldn't just use an M-Body. He would use the entirety of his being and power. He's not going to enter a pointless fight using an M-Body, he's not like Eternity and Infinity.

That's what confuses me though.

The Living Tribunal is the embodyment of TOAA's Authority. His judgements are inter-multiversal LAW. He represents the Highest Authority in Marvel.

So for him to do battle with Thanos, when TOAA was supposedly manipulating Thanos the entire time, doesn't make much sense. LT always abides by the will of TOAA, so it makes little sense to me that he would defy his master's will.

Marvel: The End, to me, is just a re-do of the IG, spotlighting Thanos as Marvel's deadliest character. I think the IG was a better story anyway.

The only good thing, is that Mistress Death finally gave Thanos the expression of her Love that he craved. That's pretty much the only redemption the story had in my eyes.

The whole concept of "M-bodies" is stupid and completely unnecessary.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
In my opinion, [b]Marvel the End if just a modern re-make of the Infinity Gauntlet, but they wanted to hype it even further by adding the Shock Factor of having Thanos absorb the Living Tribunal. [/B]

BUT, I must say the Dr. Doom subplot was very well written...and that's pretty much what held my interest, for the most part. Everyone talks about how well Starlin treats Thanos...but he's excellent when it comes to characterizing Doom. I remember 'Infinity War'...where, for me, Doom was the real star of the show.

this thread was....... teh AWESOME!!!!! 😄

Originally posted by Mr Master
The same Manifestation that's in 616,

is in the other end of the Multiverse in Universe 34022.

It's the same Manifestation everywhere, no Counters and no power fluxes.

There being only one LT does NOT mean that he cant and doesnt employ multiple mbodies across existence. Just means that all of those mbodies belong to the same entity and tap into the same single energy reserve

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
There being only one LT does NOT mean that he cant and doesnt employ multiple mbodies across existence. Just means that all of those mbodies belong to the same entity and tap into the same single energy reserve

yeah, even mr m agreed by the end that he used m-bodies. 🙂

one thing that wasn't really ironed out was the nature of the dimension of manifestations. i said one likely exists in each dimension. i still believe that, afterall the prime manifester said he was prime for THIS dimension. that pretty conclusively says to me there are other manifestation dimensions out there.

old topic, but rereading it i realized that really wasn't addressed. 🙂

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, even mr m agreed by the end that he used m-bodies. 🙂

one thing that wasn't really ironed out was the nature of the dimension of manifestations. i said one likely exists in each dimension. i still believe that, afterall the prime manifester said he was prime for THIS dimension. that pretty conclusively says to me there are other manifestation dimensions out there.

old topic, but rereading it i realized that really wasn't addressed. 🙂

Given that statement id be inclined to agree. All we've been shown in 616 comics are 616 events within the DofM so id say that makes sense.