Marvel Universe: THE END Discussion Thread

Originally posted by leonidas
to debates? they have ALWAYS been irrelevent because the portrayal of characters are . . . not very good. unless you really DO think lt's supreme judgement is a supernova . . .?

Actually in 1982, when that Korvac issue was published, LT's Supreme Judgement was a Super Nova.

So, I don't know where your going.

Originally posted by leonidas
they essentially created their own universe and seperated from eternity. okay.

Wrong,

I never said that, please, just ask me but don't add words to my post.

The Humans made a shield around the Earth which they sustained with their power, and there it stayed in stasis with in a collapsed Universe, awaiting the next ETERNITY to come by and recycle the collapse into a New Universe.

Originally posted by leonidas
dismissing? how am i dismissing?

By posting this AFTER I showed you the M-BODY of Entropy exploding into a UNIVERSE:

Originally posted by leonidas
the purpose of the m-body is to allow a physical being to see and interact with the abstract. it REPRESENTS the abstract and it's representation can vary. that does not mean that it is the entirety of the abstract

If the M-BODY of Entropy (the Abstract) BECOMING a FULL BLOWN UNIVERSE is not the "entirety" of the Concept/Abstract.

Whatever.

Originally posted by leonidas
maybe . . . or i could call pis . . .

Why?

Cause it doesn't adhere to your ONE issue of Quasar?

Originally posted by leonidas
of course their WAS the explosion. could have happened during that time i suppose. that's REALLY forcing order on events that are not MEANT to be ordered.

I would have let you known, so it's good that you acknowledged your stretch.

Originally posted by leonidas
the real reason is of course the writers wanted to SHOW the universe was made. showing an m-body of the universe is a lot cooler than showing them in front of a space-scape.

Your SPECULATING again.

Where is this stated about the WRITERS of Captain Marvel that you have deemed "the Real Reason"?

Originally posted by leonidas
fact remains, it was an m-body, and they come from the d of m.

The ONLY Facts is that the M-body IS the WHOLE UNIVERSE!

ENTROPY'S M-BODY becomes ETERNITY the ENTIRE UNIVERSE

ETERNITY is the ENTIRE UNIVERSE!

ETERNITY is the ENTIRE UNIVERSE!

ENTROPY becomes his Father, ETERNITY is the ENTIRE UNIVERSE!

All the tap dancing in the World will NEVER change the On Panel EVIDENCE.

Originally posted by leonidas
exact duplicates happen all the time. that's what every what if book is. a duplicate of 616 that becomes its own universe when an event is changed. 4321 would have been an exact duplicate of 616 (would in fact have BEEN 616) until it diverged and became its own universe. until the divergence, the histories and everything were exactly the same.

Nice story.

Show me ONE What If book where the History of a Universe is exactly the same as 616.

The End series was dealing with 616 because of the obvious:

Thanos reminiscing about his time with the Cosmic Cube

Thanos reminiscing about his time with the Infinity Gauntlet

Thanos reminiscing about his time when he died and became Death's servant

Originally posted by leonidas
he couldn't have battled abraxas -- not because of a power issue but because of what ab was.

Speculation.

Originally posted by leonidas
the reasons for this scene are the heart of the debate. you say there were still stars because he absorbed so fast no void could have existed and he wiped out the multiverse. i say he absorbed m-bodies and continued to absorb beyond the m-body to the universe itself. technically, you've shown no proof that a multiverse was absorbed.

Actually, technically I'm the only one showing proof that it was a Multi-verse, and technically you've shown absolutely NO proof to contradict it.

Except to say your idea just "sounds nicely" or a bio says it.

Bios that say Reed only remade the Universe during the Abraxas Arc, bios that say Phoenix was involved in Galactus's origin, bios that say the END 616 Universe was 4321 instead.

Originally posted by leonidas
your opinion goes against all off-panel explanations by writers and handbooks and even makes atleza the anchor of the multiverse. my explanation fits in quite nicely with all those things.

There we go, "it fits nicely" what I tell ya.

Off Panel explanations by Writers and Handbooks go against the ON PANEL Depictions.

Starlin calls the Marvel Reality, the Marvel Universe, and any other Writer's comments are inconsequential to me.

Originally posted by leonidas
starlin could have made the event crystal clear had he showed multi being absorbed. you're speculating again. and again, that's fine. just that you haven't really proven anything any more than i have. your thoughts fit your pre-conceived ideas, mine fit with what has been accepted and put out by marvel (though i concede what they put out is not always correct).

I've called you on numerous speculations, again, again, and again, so that's a funny accusation.

Many others after reading the appropriate scans have agreed, so I'm not alone in my "pre-conceived ideas"

And I already made a comprehensive suggestion of WHY the M-body of Multi was not shown getting absorbed.

Originally posted by leonidas
you were very quick to call out errors and pis in some of the scans and things i showed but when overwhelming evidence points to this being an error you stick with it?

It makes more than perfect sense that the second to TOAA has Omniversal jurisdiction, when characters that are insects to the Living Tribunal have power on an Omniversal scale.

Originally posted by leonidas
or perhaps it IS correct,

It is correct.

The Living Tribunal is the Judge of ALL the Multi-verses.

Originally posted by leonidas
and kubick is simply referencing each singular eternity as a multiverse, which is a claim i've stated before.

I know you claimed that before, and it's still nothing more than speculation, until you can back it up with proof.

Originally posted by leonidas
in THAT case, the statement makes absolutely PERFECT sense. and if he exists in all universes simultaneously, how does he manifest in each?
contemplator says the being REPRESENTS lt -- not IS lt. if every lt is ALL of lt, did ALL lt's across the multiverse get scattered across dimensions by reed? of course not because each lt (while still part of the whole) is a seperate and distinct manifestation. truely -- it makes so much sense to me. how else do you explain it? you can't. you can just say -- that's what it says. i like my explanation better even if NO ONE sees it that way.

And apparently it will continue to make sense to you and you alone.

Your building a summation compiled by theories, speculations and down right defiance of what has been stated On Panel.

It's credibility is weak, because it's ALL stemming from ONE issue, Quasar #37 and disregarding ALL other issues that concern the M-BODY of Eternity or any other M-BODY.

And LT is NOT an M-BODY!!! ... please let us know WHERE you are you getting this information from besides an AMBIGUOUS phrase made by the Contemplator.

And try and remember, if your going to say What If's are irrelevant, DON'T use an arc that was stated to be NON-CANON by Marvel itself to debate.

Originally posted by leonidas
i told you the third was in 38, found by contemplator just after quasar left. 3 in all.

Yea, my response:

So again, the event with the Beyonder and the Trial of Warlock is still playing over and over?

No matter the logic, this is PIS to the umph degree, or just plain stupid.

One thing is to go back in time,

but because History is just repeating itself, those are simultaneous events taking place between Comatose Eternity and the others?

nah ... that's a cop-out, due to PIS.

It's not your fault, it's the complete PIS of the story attempting to jam down our throats this concept of M-bodys, with a scene that took place 22 Years ago May 1984

and yet, you want to believe it's happening simultaneously with the events of Infinity War which took place in June 1992?

AND even more hilarious about this whole scene is that when the Cosmics came to the Beyonder they WEREN'T even in the Dimension of Manifestation,

they WERE in a RESTAURANT!

There're still CHAIRS and TABLES there 😆

HOW the heck did this turn into a Dimesion of Manifestation moment?

Oh silly PIS Writers of Quasar #37 & part of #38

Originally posted by leonidas
why you say 2 eternities can both exist yet both be complete eternities is also beyond me.

I NEVER said that, remember the Law of thoroughness.

YOUR saying they are the SAME Eternity.

I said they are NOT, because they are happening in separate TIME FRAMES.

Also, there are OTHER Manifestations of M-BODYS in the Dimension of M, that are of OTHER Universes, like the Infinity case.

Originally posted by leonidas
isn't that the scene where they are pleading that death not be eliminated?

Apparently, the most ridiculous scenario that issue.

Originally posted by leonidas
i said it could be all . . . just not that it NEEDS to be, or has to be and that an m-body can be destroyed/killed without it 'killing' the concept that it represents.

And this theory is based on Anomaly getting choked out by Maelstrom.

Originally posted by leonidas
anywho, please don't go point for point, mm. this will NEVER END!!

Great Wars take years to win.

Originally posted by leonidas
my contention is a simple one: an m-body represents the abstract, but it NOT the complete abstract.

Unproven speculation.

Originally posted by leonidas
if an m-body is destroyed, the abstract need not be destroyed (it could be IF the abstract wills ALL of itself into the body, i suppose).

Unproven speculation.

Even the scan of Quasar speculating about the Anomaly is left open to interpretation.

Originally posted by leonidas
eternity seen from OUTSIDE itself could logically have an m-body that encompasses all of it if it chose. why is this important? because then that allows for tha fact that thanos could have absorbed m-bodies of lt, eternity and infinity rather than all their essence, leaving the remainder of the universe behind which thanos than absorbed.

Unproven speculation.

Originally posted by leonidas
basically that's let atleza anchor the 616 (as she has been said to) as opposed to the multiverse, it explains all the terminology that was used in the story (universe was used repeatedly, not multiverse, by charatcers WELL versed in things cosmic . . .) and prevents any real speculation about the events because it fits with the story and the explanations put forth by marvel AND (perhaps more imortantly) the writer of the story.

The Writer of the Story NEVER said it was ONLY the 616 Universe that was absorbed by Thanos.

So,

more Unproven speculation.

Originally posted by leonidas
for those reasons, i believe it was the universe that was absorbed.

As you wish.

Originally posted by leonidas
everyone else is free to believe whatever they wish. occams razor for me -- the simplest explanation is the best.

Let freedom reign.

Originally posted by leonidas
okey-dokey. a couple things i know you wanted to see. the first 3 deal with the binding and freeing of eternity's consciousness. it still struggled against its bonds and would have broken free on its own, but galactus didn't want to wait.

There's something your forgetting about those two scans,

HOW did Gamora manage to REACH Eternity's Consciousness hmm?

The Answer:

By ENTERING the M-BODY of Eternity.

HOW does Gamora manage to exit the Consciousness of Eternity hmm?

The Answer:

By EXITING the M-BODY of Eternity.

Even the Consciousness of Eternity & Infinity is represented by M-BODYS.

Originally posted by leonidas
when it's released, infinity is ALSO released.

Exactly, Infinity was ALSO released.

And Gamora ALSO SAYS:

"With Eternity, that's INFINITY! ... "That's WHY Quasar COULDN'T LOCATE Her"

AND Quasar DID FIND an M-BODY of INFINITY in the Dimension of Manifestations:

"she's IGNORING me, GUESS THIS ISN'T the M-BODY I MET"

"What'd I expect, She of ALL people must have an INFINITE Number of M-BODIES"

SO obviously, this M-BODY within the Dimension of Manifestation was NOT the INFINITY of the 616 UNIVERSE, but in FACT of ANOTHER UNIVERSE.

This tells us that there is ONLY ONE Dimension of Manifestations (like the LT scan PROVED), and M-BODYS from OTHER Universes appear there simultaneously, explaining the whole multiple Deaths incident.

But the Beyonder/Eternity M-BODY is straight up nonsense still.

Originally posted by leonidas
the next ones deal with an issue i KNOW you'll bring up: the singular eternity being referenced as a 'multiverse'. we've been over this before, but you know i think calling singular eternity a multiverse is completely valid as eternity 616 is made of countless dimensions/relaities/planes/universes.

Uhmm, I don't think that though.

Singular Eternity is made up of Dimensions and Planes, NOT Realities and Universes.

So NO, Singular Eternity is NOT a Multi-verse.

Originally posted by leonidas
you also know that i think the best proof for this is the defenders ltd series where eternity tells dormammu they have met before, indicating this is the SAME eternity he fought in the past and NOT multi-eternity as you claim it is. i think the term multiverse as it was used in that series refers strictly to 616's eternity and NOT the multi-eternity.

Your entitled to an opinion like all others.

But I completely disagree that was a single Universe.

So I stand by my claim.

Originally posted by leonidas
here are a couple interesting NEW scans (and nothing like the silliness of that defenders series) which back it up further.
"A hand which holds whole UNIVERSES." he even references strange's universe (the 616) as a dimension.

That's crap writing,

Whole Universe are ....well ....Whole Universes, (separate Eternitys)

The Dimension reference is senseless as well.

Originally posted by leonidas
viewed from this perspective, that lt scan makes perfect sense, no error needed to explain it. each singular eternity IS a multiverse, all combined make multi-eternity.

I disagree, and your bordering on trying to re-write the Marvel Cosmology that has been established On Panel.

Originally posted by leonidas
in the book eternity also references a past meeting with strange and reminds strange that the ancient one was the first mortal to ever see him. are we to ascribe every meeting with eternity retroactively as a meeting with MULTI-eternity . . .? no, i don't think so. strange was before 616 eternity. ancient one was before 616 eternity, and in the defenders, dormammu was before 616 eternity.

Bad example bringing in Strange Tales #138, Where Eternity tells Strange only the Ancient One has seen him,

did you realize that there was NO MULTI-VERSE then?

So this is inconsequential.

Originally posted by leonidas
anyway, i actually like this explanation BETTER than calling error or pis in your lt scan.

Well, obviously your not going to like mine better.

Originally posted by leonidas
you say warlock met multi-eternity, and the most convincing piece of evidence you site is the fact that they existed in myriad fashions. the d of m explains away THAT little quote quite nicely, as well and further strengthens the notion that it was NOT multi-eternity warlock stood before

Not in the least.

I've proven conclusively that there is ONLY ONE Dimension of Manifestations, and that M-BODYS from OTHER Universes appear there.

So the Multi-Eternity and Warlock meeting still stands.

Originally posted by leonidas
(a fact that cannot be explained by any on-panel evidence in that book, anyway, but which actually DOES say he was searching out simply eternity).

I disagree, completely.

Originally posted by leonidas
no speculation needed, no bringing in of other books not relevent to the book that is in question.

You should of speculated, caused based on the issue, it was the Multi-verse that stood before Warlock.

Originally posted by leonidas
i think this has all come together rather nicely.

Not exactly.

There was a SCAN Typo in my first post:

FIXED:

Originally posted by leonidas
if the lt exists in every universe at the same time, why wouldn't there be a d of m in each universe?

Because the On Panel Evidence clearly states that the Dimension of Manifestation is the Living Tribunal's REALM:

"The DIMENSION of MANIFESTATIONS ... The REALM of the LIVING TRIBUNAL"

Do you have PROOF that contradicts this?

Do you have PROOF that there are MORE than ONE Dimension of Manifestation?

Saying, "Why wouldn't there be"

Is baseless SPECULATION.

Ok, now I don't really know how this fits into everything yet, because I just remembered it earlier when Leo was talking about the internal universes but....

When the Surfer and Reed and Sue traveled through a black hole in search of the missing Elders of the Universe, they ended up within the realm of Order and Chaos. Now there IS mention of it being another universe, but I'm not for sure if it's supposed to exist inside or outside of our "standard" universe. Check it out...

See, so the realm of Order and Chaos IS a universe(but I'm still not sure where it's supposed to be in relationship to the realm of Death and Eternity). Here's another one, where its called a "Reality"...

See no the funny thing about that scan, is that it ALSO implies that Order and Chaos are actually EQUAL to Death and Eternity. Now of course, in any instance when Order and Chaos were acting withing the "standard" universe, Eternity and Infinity would have greater power, but whenever they are within their own, they should be as powerful as Eternity and Death are within theirs. (And by the same token, theoretically Eternity and Death should have less power within the realm of Order and Chaos).

Here's my last one, it has the In-Betweener talking to Death about how HIS reality is different than hers...

Now, what I find completely puzzling, is the fact that the In-Betweener was actually IN CONTROL of Death(he made her kill the Elders, which she swore she wouldn't do before). So that actually indicates that either Order and Chaos are MORE powerful than Death and Eternity, or that they simply GAVE more power to the In-Betweener, than Death and Eternity gave to Galactus.

I know this wasn't really the right place to bring this up, but I just wanted to get you guys opinions(Mr. M and Leo specifically), as to how this relates to everything else. It may have been expanded on or contradicted elsewhere(I'm not overly familiar with Order and Chaos), but from what's been indicated here, I think that Order and Chaos need to be bumped up a bit on our cosmic totem pole.

So what do you guys think?

mm, you've gone through . . . a lot of trouble to say the same thing i've said about a half-dozen times: the m-body of eternity CAN encompass the whole universe if it is viewed from OUTSIDE the universe -- which is where it is most often encountered. of which your entropy issue is but one more example, as is gamora's entry and exit. seriously, i've said it a number of times, so all your scans simply continue to reiterate a point i stated long ago. but people love your scans, so keep 'em coming! 😄

thing is: when have you seen the whole universe destroyed when the m-body of eternity has been WITHIN the universe? never. except for the one time in THE END. and what happens when THAT body is destroyed? there is still a universe left behind. the only way you can explain it is to speculate that thanos absorbed everything so fast that no void was made and that he went on to absorb the MULTIVERSE. a multiverse that is NEVER mentioned in the series. while UNIVERSE is repeatedly mentioned. you are ignoring the terminology and ascribing it the way you want to interpret it. if universe DID mean universe, your theory would utterly fall apart. i see no reason to say universe was NOT exactly what starlin meant. m-body absorbed, then the remainder and consciousness of eternity/infinity.

there is a second example of an eternity m-body falling while WITHIN the universe: when thanos defeats eternity in the IG the m-body remains behind in stasis but THANOS is the universe. how can that be if, as you've said over and over, EVERY M-BODY OF ETERNITY IS THE WHOLE UNIVERSE? if the whole universe is the eternity m-body, just what IS thanos?

my explanation of that event is simple -- thanos started battling the m-body (as we saw), then went beyond the physical plane to face the REAL spiritual eternity. the m-body was meaningless at this point as the REAL universe was now engaged and when thanos usurped the 'consciouness' of the universe, the m-body remained behind utterly useless. but also CLEARLY NOT the ENTIRE universe unless thanos was . . .? 😕

my theory really DOES fit nicely imho (perhaps not in yours, or others, but, alas, i can live with that 🙂 ) and i don't have to say atleza anchors the entire multiverse -- another postulation that have never been shown on panel. and you know what you say about things not on panel . . .

in support i showed that death was killed by strange (but you say instead he just . . . ko'd her . . . even though when she came back she was in a new m-body . . . malestrom killed anomaly's m-body and sent the m-body to oblivion. it didn't matter because the m-body is meaningless and we saw anomaly attack q later and even say it must have been the m-body in an issue ALL ABOUT m-bodies. but you pooh-poohed THAT as well and said quasar really doesn't know what he's talking about.

you don't believe quasar when he says that malestrom killed anomaly, but you cling to the fact that infinity ignored him and say that because of THAT you have 'conclusively proven there is only one d of m' responsible for supplying the entire OMNIVERSE with m-bodies?

😕

you're terribly quick to ascribe the term multiverse to everything. only problem is: multiverse is almost never mentioned anywhere on panel. but you continue to demand on-panel evidence from me and anyone else. for you to ascribe it as freely as you do, then critcize me for speculating (while i showed just some of the leaps you made above) . . . doesn't sound too great. using only the info provided in the issue, it's a lot easier to say infinity was the current one and rather than ignoring him, was actually comatose like eternity and unable to answer BECAUSE she was bound with him. (speculation is NECESSARY in this case as ithe situation is never defined) but in MY speculations, there is no need to bring in other-universal infinities and entities or the omniverse -- things that are not only never mentioned but that are never even alluded to.

as to the lt scan. in your corner you have:

one single scan that contradicts all others of lt EVER.

in mine: i have what COULD be an error (which i actually dislike saying cuz i hate calling pis for reasons goober mentioned) so instead, i showed a scan that completely in every way supports exactly what i said was shown in the defenders mini series -- that any singular eternity can (because of its make-up) be seen to be a multiverse in and of itself. eternity himself acknowledges dormammu in the defenders series and references a past meeting AND eternity himself ALSO references a past meeting with dr strange and the ancient one. (and that was NOT strange tales . . .)

your reaction: crap writing. why? not because it rewrites at all marvel's cosmology, but rather because it does not fit in with YOUR opinion of what that cosmology should be. there's a big difference, my friend. different writers have the right to interpret things differently.

so, you have one scan that is contradicted in every other scan of lt, and i have 2 scans (plus what is in effect a whole mini-series) that reference singular eternity as a multiverse or collection of universes as well as lt's judgement failing in the ultraverse -- a seperate multiverse.

i am perfectly content to let people choose which interpretation they believe to be accurate. 🙂

lastly, as regards lt and the d of m. what is the very PURPOSE of the d of m? to CREATE M-BODIES. yet you see lt multiple times in that dimension and STILL don't think he uses m-bodies? to quoth the master-man: whatever. 😬

i've really nothing more to add. people can read and come to whatever conclusions they like. it has -- as always -- been fun. 🙂

Originally posted by darthgoober
Ok, now I don't really know how this fits into everything yet, because I just remembered it earlier when Leo was talking about the internal universes but....

When the Surfer and Reed and Sue traveled through a black hole in search of the missing Elders of the Universe, they ended up within the realm of Order and Chaos. Now there IS mention of it being another universe, but I'm not for sure if it's supposed to exist inside or outside of our "standard" universe. Check it out...

See, so the realm of Order and Chaos IS a universe(but I'm still not sure where it's supposed to be in relationship to the realm of Death and Eternity). Here's another one, where its called a "Reality"...

See no the funny thing about that scan, is that it ALSO implies that Order and Chaos are actually EQUAL to Death and Eternity. Now of course, in any instance when Order and Chaos were acting withing the "standard" universe, Eternity and Infinity would have greater power, but whenever they are within their own, they should be as powerful as Eternity and Death are within theirs. (And by the same token, theoretically Eternity and Death should have less power within the realm of Order and Chaos).

Here's my last one, it has the In-Betweener talking to Death about how HIS reality is different than hers...

Now, what I find completely puzzling, is the fact that the In-Betweener was actually IN CONTROL of Death(he made her kill the Elders, which she swore she wouldn't do before). So that actually indicates that either Order and Chaos are MORE powerful than Death and Eternity, or that they simply GAVE more power to the In-Betweener, than Death and Eternity gave to Galactus.

I know this wasn't really the right place to bring this up, but I just wanted to get you guys opinions(Mr. M and Leo specifically), as to how this relates to everything else. It may have been expanded on or contradicted elsewhere(I'm not overly familiar with Order and Chaos), but from what's been indicated here, I think that Order and Chaos need to be bumped up a bit on our cosmic totem pole.

So what do you guys think?

order and chaos are concepts that exist within EVERY universe (ie eternity). how could there be order and chaos and their universe be OUTSIDE of eternity . . .?

so yes, i'd say that their universe IS within eternity. the negative zone is also said to be a universe and i don't see how someone could argue IT is outside eternity either . . .

No need to prolong this any further, we've given the audience enough of each side for them to make a conclusion.

You had your last word, this is mine:

"Eternity"

"Once again I AM REALITY"

"In THIS UNIVERSE THAT IS I"

flirt111

excellent. 🙂

i forgot though: i neglected one answer to one query. you asked about what ifs. i said they duplicate universes in all ways save that they diverged from ours at certain instances. that doesn't mean ALL 'other' universes are copies of 616, of course. anyway, this idea is born out in many what ifs that recount the history of characters leading up to the moment of divergence, but here's just one quick example:

"Slight things turn out differently from the reality we know." these slight things are the divergences that then set these other universes apart from ours. up until the divergence, the universes are the same.

in the second: "one such reality diverges on a fateful day . . ."

oh, and one final special one . . . this from the evolutionary war what if you were using earlier . . .

you showed the entity splitting numerous times, but alas, the second panel on the page is pretty interesting: "the earth itself? it still exists, self contained and self existing, IN THE UNIVERSE THE ENTITY LEFT BEHIND"

the entity's departure left the universe "without meaning". so the m-body left and already fashioned a new big bang in a different dimension, but . . . THE UNIVERSE WAS STILL LEFT BEHIND!!! how is THAT possible?? and what 'meaning' was deprived?

THE SPIRITUAL ESSENCE!! the spirit is what is important to the universe. your own story proves that the m-body is meaningless, that it CANNOT encompass the whole universe. the UNIVERSE WAS STILL LEF BEHIND! it DID implode, later, because the SENTIENCE was gone -- NOT BECAUSE THE M-BODY WAS GONE! the m-body can literally LEAVE THE UNIVERSE and STILL leave 'the universe' behind. thanos could easily have absorbed the m-body and what would have been left? the universe.

dude, showed a scans of panels all around that one, but chose not to post THAT panel. that is ALMOST like . . . cheating . . . 🙁

ps-i still stand by the idea that what ifs shouldn't be used. i showd it only to show that even in the book of YOUR choosing, my idea is born out. readers can come to their own conclusions.

Originally posted by leonidas
i forgot though: i neglected one answer to one query. you asked about what ifs. i said they duplicate universes in all ways save that they diverged from ours at certain instances. that doesn't mean ALL 'other' universes are copies of 616, of course. anyway, this idea is born out in many what ifs that recount the history of characters leading up to the moment of divergence, but here's just one quick example:

"there are OTHER Universes ... ALTERNATE Universes in which slight things TURN OUT FAR DIFFERENTLY than the REALITY WE KNOW"

"Slight things turn out differently from the reality we know." these slight things are the divergences that then set these other universes apart from ours. up until the divergence, the universes are the same.

in the second: "one such reality diverges on a fateful day . . ."

What does this prove though?

That ALTERNATE UNIVERSES are NOT the SAME as 616.

That's what I said.

I asked you to show me PROOF of a Universe that is an EXACT duplicate of 616.

And you present me with Info I already know about in What Ifs. dontgetit

"divergence" or call it what you want,

the bottom line is there is NO EXACT duplicate of 616 where Thanos could have experienced the EXACT same events of 616.

So I win.

Originally posted by leonidas
oh, and one final special one . . . this from the evolutionary war what if you were using earlier . . .

you showed the entity splitting numerous times, but alas, the second panel on the page is pretty interesting: "the earth itself? it still exists, self contained and self existing, [b]IN THE UNIVERSE THE ENTITY LEFT BEHIND"

the entity's departure left the universe "without meaning". so the m-body left and already fashioned a new big bang in a different dimension, but . . . THE UNIVERSE WAS STILL LEFT BEHIND!!! how is THAT possible?? and what 'meaning' was deprived?

THE SPIRITUAL ESSENCE!! the spirit is what is important to the universe. your own story proves that the m-body is meaningless, that it CANNOT encompass the whole universe. the UNIVERSE WAS STILL LEF BEHIND! it DID implode, later, because the SENTIENCE was gone -- NOT BECAUSE THE M-BODY WAS GONE! the m-body can literally LEAVE THE UNIVERSE and STILL leave 'the universe' behind. [/B]

Uhh friend,

you just buried yourself in confusion,

the M-BODY LEFT creates a Universe, the NEXT PAGE, the UNIVERSE COLLAPSES.

You thought you had something by going into the issue and cropping a scan, but WHEN and WHERE in the issue, does it mention that because the "Spiritual Essence" left the Universe folded?

The very SAME SCAN you just posted, lol, clearly says,

"the ENTITY'S DEPARTURE has DEPRIVED THAT UNIVERSE OF MEANING"

So WHERE are you getting the statements you just ADDED to the Story of "Spiritual Essence" having anything to do with this?

Bottom line,

The UNIVERSES IMPLODED, because Eternity IS, WAS and ALWAYS will be EVERY Universe in the Multi-verses

Originally posted by leonidas
thanos could easily have absorbed the m-body and what would have been left? the universe.

If your basing your argument on what you just posted, your still climbing an oily slope.

Originally posted by leonidas
dude, showed a scans of panels all around that one, but chose not to post THAT panel. that is ALMOST like . . . cheating . . .

dude, showed and explained it ALL, but lack of thoroughness led you to believe I was being slick:

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Humans made a shield around the Earth which they sustained with their power, and there it stayed in stasis with in a collapsed Universe, awaiting the next ETERNITY to come by and recycle the collapse into a New Universe

"Cheating"?

ADDING text to the scan from your own thoughts is a bit more of a cheating technique, wouldn't you say?

Originally posted by leonidas
ps-i still stand by the idea that what ifs shouldn't be used. i showd it only to show that even in the book of YOUR choosing, my idea is born out.

Not at all,

the issue shows that if the M-BODY of ETERNITY LEAVES a UNIVERSE,

the UNIVERSE COLLAPSES, end of story.

And it has NOTHING to do with any "Spiritual Essence"

Try again...

Originally posted by leonidas
readers can come to their own conclusions.

That they can do.

"Eternity"

"Once again I AM REALITY"

"In THIS UNIVERSE THAT IS I"

swank

the m-body "is reality/universe". it LEFT the universe. it left BEHIND a universe. said universe was deprived of meaning. you think the meaning was the m-body that -- even after it left LEFT, left a universe behind . . .??

okay . . .

earlier i asked you a couple times: if eternity leaves the universe (ie when he visited the d of m or lt, or . . .) DOES THE UNIVERSE GO WITH HIM?

you repeatedly said "yes."

that scan that you left out and cropped all around clearly SHOWS and SAYS 'in the UNIVERSE the entity left behind.'

i don't know how much more clear you need things to be shown that the universe does NOT travel with the m-body and is in fact MORE than the m-body is. the vacated universe SURVIVED the departure of the m-body and imploded well after it left. why? because the SENTIENCE left -- the 'living part' of the universe, ie -- the universe's consciousness.

meh, i'm through with the subject, but, though you may not see it, i've little doubt others will.

😉

.

.

Originally posted by leonidas
well, this series has stirred up a lot of controversy among the 'cosmic elite'. heheh. aka -- those guys who debate the cosmic stuff all the time!! anyhow, i just wanted to get some ideas down and shared, and i would welcome others to do the same.

[b]***IF YOU PLAN ON ACTING LIKE AN ASS TOWARD ME OR ANY OTHER PARTICIPANT IN THIS THREAD I WILL REPORT YOU AS SUCH. FIRST AND ONLY WARNING!***

so, let's start off by answering an oft-asked question:

is the end canon?

✅

undoubtedly. 🙂

and unfortunately . . . grumblegrumblegrumble . . . [/B]

The True Living Tribunal>>>>>>>The Heart of the Infinite

Originally posted by Horrificus
He effected A UNIVERSE. Period.
Please, people. Do not get talked into ignoring the words of the writers and the words on panel. This is simple.
He brought about the end of A universe.
That is all. The writer said it. The comic says it.
There is no reason to look into it anymore. If somebody has an arguement that is totally based upon me having to ignore what I am seeing and reading, I say that is a very POOR arguement.

One of the best posts in the thread ✅

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
One of the best posts in the thread ✅

Have a safe week

wrong thread 😱

Originally posted by guy222
Have a safe week

You to mate. Take care 🙂

GS you still having the battle with Mr.Master? I thought it was suppose to happen friday.