or clobber it.
trust was the reason collateral damage was acceptable. the american government and the people, for the most part, trusted that superheroes had their best intentions at heart. now, they feel like their trust may have been misplaced, and are weary of the entire superhuman community. it's an understandable reaction. but imagine if you were one of the superheroes who suddenly lost the trust of the people by no fault of your own. that's the whole point of these opposing sides.
Originally posted by willRulesImpressive... Most Impressive...
That's a good point, but I respectfully disagree 🙂Forgive me for taking the moral high-ground but I feel with the amount of laws and notions that are being passed or thrown away every day, there comes a point where what is right may not necessarily be legal. The law essentially is there to try and keep peace and order within society but we as humans also have moral compasses which contradict specific laws. It leads me to conclude that what some of us may consider to be right, may not always be the easiest option, and we may face a huge opposition on the way. However that's no reason to do a Tony stark and just give in to the government.
sorry for the speech but that's my opinion 🙂
But how do you maintain a structured, ordered society without obeying the law? The heroes take the law into their own hands. At what point does one draw the line? How many times has excessive force been used? How many people have the Punisher killed? Maybe if SHIELD and the US Government had Spider-man's back, Gwen Stacy might still be alive.
The heroes are picking and choosing which laws to enforce, and which not to. As long as the laws were in their favor, it was okay; but now that things have changed, they won't enforce this one law upon themselves. Yes, it's true that the Superhuman Registration Act (that from this point forward I'll simply refer to as the SRA) would make it hard for many heroes to continue to operatre as they currently do, but it also makes sure there are no loose cannons out on the streets. The Young Avengers and the Runaways are perfect examples of this. They're kids who've taken it upon themselves to make life or death decisions about people. They have no experiance, no training, and no accountability.
The heroes say that they put the welfare of others above their own personal welfare; but to what extent? They're willing to risk their lives to make the world a safer place, but they won't register themselves to ensure that they are properly trained and formally accountable to make the world a safer place.
Remember when the Thunderbolts first formed? That was another time when the government trusted that a group of people with powers and mask they didn't know had their best interest at heart, and it came back to bite them in the ass. If the SRA had existed then, it would've been discovered that they were really the Masters of Evil. If they're willing to see that justice is done no matter what the cost, why is this price too high?
Again, if the act forced everyone with powers to register, I'd feel different. But the SRA merely says that if you're going to put on a mask and go out fighting crime, you have to be licensed to do so. No ones putting a gun to their head and making them fight crime. The average person has to register to drive a car, to get married, to buy a gun, hell in some cases people even need a hunting/fishing license.
Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Impressive... Most Impressive...But how do you maintain a structured, ordered society without obeying the law? The heroes take the law into their own hands. At what point does one draw the line? How many times has excessive force been used? How many people have the Punisher killed? Maybe if SHIELD and the US Government had Spider-man's back, Gwen Stacy might still be alive.
The heroes are picking and choosing which laws to enforce, and which not to. As long as the laws were in their favor, it was okay; but now that things have changed, they won't enforce this one law upon themselves. Yes, it's true that the Superhuman Registration Act (that from this point forward I'll simply refer to as the SRA) would make it hard for many heroes to continue to operatre as they currently do, but it also makes sure there are no loose cannons out on the streets. The Young Avengers and the Runaways are perfect examples of this. They're kids who've taken it upon themselves to make life or death decisions about people. They have no experiance, no training, and no accountability.
The heroes say that they put the welfare of others above their own personal welfare; but to what extent? They're willing to risk their lives to make the world a safer place, but they won't register themselves to ensure that they are properly trained and formally accountable to make the world a safer place.
Remember when the Thunderbolts first formed? That was another time when the government trusted that a group of people with powers and mask they didn't know had their best interest at heart, and it came back to bite them in the ass. If the SRA had existed then, it would've been discovered that they were really the Masters of Evil. If they're willing to see that justice is done no matter what the cost, why is this price too high?
Again, if the act forced everyone with powers to register, I'd feel different. But the SRA merely says that if you're going to put on a mask and go out fighting crime, you have to be licensed to do so. No ones putting a gun to their head and making them fight crime. The average person has to register to drive a car, to get married, to buy a gun, hell in some cases people even need a hunting/fishing license.
Freakin. A.
Awesome post. 👆
I haven't heard one argument for the anti-registration side that would make me sway the other way if I were living in the Marvel universe. I mean, c'mon, the best defense they've had is "It's traditional."
These heroes have gotta' look at it from society's standpoint. 😬
There is a reason that the heroes are considered above the law, though. People look up to a lot of them to be able to push things to the limit. And a LOOOOOOOOOOOT of people don't trust the government, so what REALLY would be the difference if they made people Expose themselves and their family on a day to day basis. I understand your point of view, but I feel there are two sides to every story, and I don't think it would be safe for Mary Jane and others if these heroes exposed themselves. I don't believe things would have gone much different had Shield Backed up spiderman years ago.
Look at what happened to the Elongated mans wife in Identity Crisis. That is what happened when he exposed himself. I know he wasn't signing a registration act but the same basis applies 🙂
(give yah a good ole debate! 😄)
Not to mention this law can and WILL lead to... well... a CIVIL WAR!!! which endangers even MORE people.
An argument for the opposition- as I have alluded to before- is one of the fear of a Police State, as Goliath points out. These heroes- the true ones- like Captain America, Spiderman, and Daredevil put their lives on the line all the time for the American people, do you really want to see them become just another subdivision of S.H.I.E.L.D? Do you honestly believe that what the government thinks is right for the people is always what really is right for the people?
What about the Patriot Act? This Act has essentially tore the fourth Amendment from the Constitution, it has defended illegal wire-tappings, "random" searches are increasing, and Federal agents need close to no provocation to conduct full-scale investigations. Even the American people's right to protest is being called into question, as the CIA can now take pictures of protester's vehicles, belongings, and even the protesters themselves, placing them on a "watch list", which is not rumored to exist, it is publicly admitted to exist. The government can log into your computer if you type a certain amount of terrorist related words in a row, checking what you've been looking at, what conversations you've been having, whether or not your opinions have merrit in the Utopian Society long the brainchild of fanatical Liberals, but much closer to the truth in terms of what has been happening to our rights as human beings.
If I were to go protest Bush as a Presidential Parade today, instead of being able to voice my opinion in non-violent protest alongside the parade, standing among the crowds of admirers, I would be forced into a segregated area with caution tape put up around it, a virtual protest area, usually where the parade doesn't even come into view of, making the protesters- whether right or wrong- out to be criminals in need or re-education! Some agencies have even taken steps, under the watchful guidance of the federal government, to remove people wearing non-supportive attire to certain functions, something that is completely ungrounded in the Constitution and is- by no means- LEGAL!
I am not saying that one side is right over the other, I am saying that both sides have merrit, but neither side- as Marvel has said rightly so, is completely correct, so do not treat this as so mundane an affair and curl up on Tony Stark's lap, and don't put your heart and soul in place of Cap's shield. Get the facts, find out what Civil War is alluding to in the real-world, as that's obviously the purpose of the story arc.
SO, I ask you, "at what price should freedom come? Are you willing to give up your rights in order to feel better protected? Are you willing to bend the rules and even break others in a conformist society, becoming a nonconformist?
"Those who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin
Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Impressive... Most Impressive...But how do you maintain a structured, ordered society without obeying the law? The heroes take the law into their own hands. At what point does one draw the line? How many times has excessive force been used? How many people have the Punisher killed? Maybe if SHIELD and the US Government had Spider-man's back, Gwen Stacy might still be alive.
The heroes are picking and choosing which laws to enforce, and which not to. As long as the laws were in their favor, it was okay; but now that things have changed, they won't enforce this one law upon themselves. Yes, it's true that the Superhuman Registration Act (that from this point forward I'll simply refer to as the SRA) would make it hard for many heroes to continue to operate as they currently do, but it also makes sure there are no loose cannons out on the streets. The Young Avengers and the Runaways are perfect examples of this. They're kids who've taken it upon themselves to make life or death decisions about people. They have no experience, no training, and no accountability.
The heroes say that they put the welfare of others above their own personal welfare; but to what extent? They're willing to risk their lives to make the world a safer place, but they won't register themselves to ensure that they are properly trained and formally accountable to make the world a safer place.
Remember when the Thunderbolts first formed? That was another time when the government trusted that a group of people with powers and mask they didn't know had their best interest at heart, and it came back to bite them in the ass. If the SRA had existed then, it would've been discovered that they were really the Masters of Evil. If they're willing to see that justice is done no matter what the cost, why is this price too high?
Again, if the act forced everyone with powers to register, I'd feel different. But the SRA merely says that if you're going to put on a mask and go out fighting crime, you have to be licensed to do so. No ones putting a gun to their head and making them fight crime. The average person has to register to drive a car, to get married, to buy a gun, hell in some cases people even need a hunting/fishing license.
🙂 That's a good point but personally I feel that sometimes moral decisions made by heroes are decisions the law wouldn't have made. Sometimes its a better decision. I feel the law needs to work in unison with many of the general moral decisions made in todays society. until this happens there is virtually no difference between shield and any other supervillains.
What if what is considered to be wrong legalised and what is right to be considered illegal. Many heroes like spidey and Cap stand for ideas and specific scruples. These aren't law, but they feel that there is a definite requirement for these values to be enforced hence the conflict ensues.
Whilst I agree to the idea of training certain new and inexperienced heroes, I do not agree with them being forced to give up their identities (And as a result their families identities) As spider-man pointed out in civil war 1 once their identities are given up there will be many people who know this, people within the organisation who are corrupt and willing to get back at the heroes in various ways.
I agree with you to a certain extent that many of these people are too excessive in their violent attitudes to solving a problem. However this is clearly a knee-jerk reaction to living in a society where people who deserve to be punished are going unpunished and when the law can't do this it is understandable (Not necessarily just) if people begin to take action when it comes to their beliefs.
There is a certain amount of trust required on the governments part that masked heroes continue because when masked villains attack society and the government within the MU, they rely on masked heroes to save them. Drawing up the registration act may result in many a hero going into hiding and being unable to uphold the tasks that the forceful government relies on them to perform. As for loose cannons there again is a level of trust required from the government which was originally placed when masked heroes like the avengers started up.
A good example of the good that can come from masked heroes is the X-men. These people are outlawed by society yet have saved the very fabric of existence on numerous occasions. Plus the Xavier institute trains mutants (And non-mutants like longshot) whilst their identities are kept secret from society. Nobody can argue the good they have contributed yet they are continuously hindered or blocked by the same forces which wish to uphold the registration act.
I personally am agains the registration act but I do agree that many of the masked heroes are too violent in their approach and that some of the younger more inexperienced heroes require a form of training. However I believe that this training can still be done without the heroes giving up the freedom of their separate identities. 🙂
On paper the SRA seems like a good idea, but it would give the government a lot of power knowing who these guys really were. I think the best solution is to have them as a special task force with the military that would share a data base with other countries to mobilize and direct the heroes efficiently. It would keep their identities safe but also hold them accountable.
I just read the first issue today and I was definitely not disappointed! It was very badass, especially Cap's scene. They're really making me think that Iron Man's gonna be a douche though... which I kind of hope he will be so that Captain America can kick his ass. I have a good feeling that this one disappoint, unlike House of M.
Originally posted by Jade Lightning
An argument for the opposition- as I have alluded to before- is one of the fear of a Police State, as Goliath points out. These heroes- the true ones- like Captain America, Spiderman, and Daredevil put their lives on the line all the time for the American people, do you really want to see them become just another subdivision of S.H.I.E.L.D? Do you honestly believe that what the government thinks is right for the people is always what really is right for the people?What about the Patriot Act? This Act has essentially tore the fourth Amendment from the Constitution, it has defended illegal wire-tappings, "random" searches are increasing, and Federal agents need close to no provocation to conduct full-scale investigations. Even the American people's right to protest is being called into question, as the CIA can now take pictures of protester's vehicles, belongings, and even the protesters themselves, placing them on a "watch list", which is not rumored to exist, it is publicly admitted to exist. The government can log into your computer if you type a certain amount of terrorist related words in a row, checking what you've been looking at, what conversations you've been having, whether or not your opinions have merrit in the Utopian Society long the brainchild of fanatical Liberals, but much closer to the truth in terms of what has been happening to our rights as human beings.
If I were to go protest Bush as a Presidential Parade today, instead of being able to voice my opinion in non-violent protest alongside the parade, standing among the crowds of admirers, I would be forced into a segregated area with caution tape put up around it, a virtual protest area, usually where the parade doesn't even come into view of, making the protesters- whether right or wrong- out to be criminals in need or re-education! Some agencies have even taken steps, under the watchful guidance of the federal government, to remove people wearing non-supportive attire to certain functions, something that is completely ungrounded in the Constitution and is- by no means- LEGAL!
I am not saying that one side is right over the other, I am saying that both sides have merrit, but neither side- as Marvel has said rightly so, is completely correct, so do not treat this as so mundane an affair and curl up on Tony Stark's lap, and don't put your heart and soul in place of Cap's shield. Get the facts, find out what Civil War is alluding to in the real-world, as that's obviously the purpose of the story arc.
SO, I ask you, "at what price should freedom come? Are you willing to give up your rights in order to feel better protected? Are you willing to bend the rules and even break others in a conformist society, becoming a nonconformist?
"Those who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin
So... you say that being a vigilantee (which BTW Spider-man, Daredevil, etc. are) is the moral thing to do?
Oh, and one more thing. Just to let everybody know. I like playing Devil's Advocate. If most of the people here were FOR the SRA, I'd be posting against it. I do it just to show a fair and balaced discussion where everyone sees all the different point of view.
Originally posted by willRulesBut again, YOU know these heroes. You know that Spider-man and Daredevil are good and decent people. All the average person in the Marvel Universe knows about Spider-man and Daredevil is what they read in papers like the Daily Bugal, which isn't good. They've always been a little hesitant about these "heroes" motives and actions, and now after seeing the footage of Speedball knowingly and willfully taking his team into a dangerous situation for the sake of better ratings, and resulting in the deaths of over 600 people on live TV; and you wonder why the government is taking such a drastic step as the SRA.
🙂 That's a good point but personally I feel that sometimes moral decisions made by heroes are decisions the law wouldn't have made. Sometimes its a better decision. I feel the law needs to work in unison with many of the general moral decisions made in todays society. until this happens there is virtually no difference between shield and any other supervillains.What if what is considered to be wrong legalised and what is right to be considered illegal. Many heroes like spidey and Cap stand for ideas and specific scruples. These aren't law, but they feel that there is a definite requirement for these values to be enforced hence the conflict ensues.
Whilst I agree to the idea of training certain new and inexperienced heroes, I do not agree with them being forced to give up their identities (And as a result their families identities) As spider-man pointed out in civil war 1 once their identities are given up there will be many people who know this, people within the organisation who are corrupt and willing to get back at the heroes in various ways.
I agree with you to a certain extent that many of these people are too excessive in their violent attitudes to solving a problem. However this is clearly a knee-jerk reaction to living in a society where people who deserve to be punished are going unpunished and when the law can't do this it is understandable (Not necessarily just) if people begin to take action when it comes to their beliefs.
There is a certain amount of trust required on the governments part that masked heroes continue because when masked villains attack society and the government within the MU, they rely on masked heroes to save them. Drawing up the registration act may result in many a hero going into hiding and being unable to uphold the tasks that the forceful government relies on them to perform. As for loose cannons there again is a level of trust required from the government which was originally placed when masked heroes like the avengers started up.
A good example of the good that can come from masked heroes is the X-men. These people are outlawed by society yet have saved the very fabric of existence on numerous occasions. Plus the Xavier institute trains mutants (And non-mutants like longshot) whilst their identities are kept secret from society. Nobody can argue the good they have contributed yet they are continuously hindered or blocked by the same forces which wish to uphold the registration act.
I personally am agains the registration act but I do agree that many of the masked heroes are too violent in their approach and that some of the younger more inexperienced heroes require a form of training. However I believe that this training can still be done without the heroes giving up the freedom of their separate identities. 🙂
How does the average person on the street to know that Spidey isn't doing his thing for his own reason instead of the best interest of the people? How do they know that Daredevil won't let the safety of an innocent get in the way of his pursuit of justice?
As far as the heroes family and friends safety, how many of the Fantastic Four's family have been endangered, and how often? And more often than Spidey's? Why are these heroes willing to risk their lives in battle but not by placing their IDs in the hands of the government. The risk of dying in battle is far higher than the risk that their IDs would be leaked to criminals. They need to realize that they're role models. Role models that say "Sure it's okay to throw on a mask and enforce your own style of justice whenever you like. Come on, it's fun, exciting, and you won't get in trouble if things go wrong."